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Suspension Tech: Bring It!

Discussion in 'Driveline/Suspension' started by BMR Tech, Dec 31, 2013.

  1. BMR Tech

    BMR Tech Authorized Vendor Authorized Vendor

    Messages:
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    So....we are selling record amounts of S197 Suspension product right now, yet, people aren't needing my assistance any more?

    What tha?

    Bring some tech questions. I am all ears (eyes)

    Surely someone is having traction issues with all this HP being made!

    :beer:

    HERE IS THE BMR "Pinion Angle" Video. It's easy peasy stuff.

    BMR Suspension's S197 Mustang Driveline Angle Video - "Pinion Angle"


    STOCK S197 Upper Control Arm Wheel-Hop Madness:VIDEO
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDJ92ZXax6Y

    SAME CAR AS ABOVE, WITH BMR UCA and MOUNT: BYE WHEEL HOP!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gLQ7Fexj2c



    ****I am going to copy and paste most of the Q&A's here - to make it easy for everyone. Hopefully it helps!!!!

    They often do, and often don't. It depends on a few things. Springs, shocks, struts, launch style/rpm, etc.

    I could best answer this, if I saw a video of the car. IMO, once a car gets past mid 11's with a manual trans....they need an ARB (this is generic, but close).. With an Auto, they typically start becoming a good investment when you get into the 10's, solidly.

    That's tough. I would need to know what the car is doing. It is very hard to blindly recommend additional parts, other than those listed, if I do not know how the car is reacting. If I had to blindly guess....adjustable front struts, UCA in the upper position, LCA in the top of the 3 holes...and some weight removal. That would do well. I think tuning would provide just as much improvement, as well as launch technique. Of course, the "system" or "package" is what makes it work at the end of the day.

    Actually, I rank them similar. When installing aftermarket suspension components, I HIGHLY recommend the axle being perfectly centered at static ride-height. When the axle is pushed/bias to one side...it puts strain into multiple suspension and drive train components; no bueno!

    Same for pinion angle.

    You can torque a floating style bushing/sleeve however you wish. Of course, we always tell people to TQ them loaded....but there are a few reasons behind this. When you install aftermarket UCA/LCA/PHR etc....the ONLY bolt that NEEDS to be torqued at TRUE ride-height/load...is the rear most UCA bolt to the differential.

    For your car, I recommend starting in the middle position of the BMR Relo Brackets. It is usually the best position. Not always, though.

    ****THOSE READING****
    Speaking of torquing at ride-height. When you have jackstands under your A-Arms, and rear axle....the suspension is NOT LOADED fully. It is partially loaded. You cannot fully load the suspension / achieve static ride-height.....without having the full weight of the car sit on the front and rear tires. :beer:

    Currently available, if I personally had to pick, I would do the Eibach 11+ Adjustables. Bang for the buck, and just really good performing parts. I'm not huge on their springs, but, their bars are nice.

    We are going to release ours sometime this year. We have taken so long, for a good reason. :rolling:

    Ouch, that is a little more complicated than I expected. That question is a little too broad. I would say, set the car up for its primary use first....then adjust the mod list from there. You can have a GREAT auto-x set-up....then swap rear tires and unbolt the front sway bar, loosen front struts, and go fast from a roll or a drag strip. It's actually easy.

    Hmmm... It would take me atleast 10,000 words.

    This should help.....but it is very general/basic.

    AntiSquat1.jpg

    Hmm. BRM springs? Never heard of 'em!

    It's okay, I am still "feeling" it from New Years, too. :beer:

    So - everything is stock, except the BMR Springs....right? If so, then you honestly may need to replace the front struts to cure your issue. Not really sure why some people experience this, and some do not. I would say that most do, but some don't realize or pay attention.

    If you cannot decide on struts, I would be happy to assist you.

    LCA Relos: Here's the deal. GENERALLY speaking....you want to multiply the amount you drop the car, by 1.5 to 2...to get the amount which you want to lower the LCA down. This is just from experience....and I am NOT saying everyone needs to do so. For example, if you drop the car 1"....a 2" LCA drop is typically the best way to go. For a larger drop, I see that the drop X 1.5 seems to be more realistic. Of course, this is just a function of the geometry/properties of suspension movement.

    *A lot of this depends on the position of the UCA, as well. With a BMR UCA Mount...using the UPPER most position....the 1.5 or 2 factor is almost always perfect... For those reading, our LCA positions are 2", 3" and 4" from the factory mounting point.

    It goes SOOO much deeper - but this will get people to an excellent starting point. You won't see anyone else, ever, before I just typed this.....tell you / post that info. If they did, I told them over the phone. These are the type of things I have to conjure up, because I speak to an astronomical amount of people each and every day. At the end of the day, LCA angle needs to be adjusted to see what works best. That is always better than anything I can tell someone.

    Adjustable UCA:
    This relates to the LCA mounting point. On a lowered car, I ALWAYS like to see the stock, or upper most position on the BMR UCA Mount, be utilized....while using LCA Brackets to adjust for maximized traction. We are likely the only company that specifically designs our upper mounting point on our UCA Bracket, for a lowered car. It is actually raised slightly, compared to stock.

    The lower position on our UCA Mount, this is almost always reserved (recommendaed by me) for people who have a stock ride-height car, AND NO LCA Brackets. That said, I do have people who experience awesome results on a lowered car, using the lower position on the UCA mount, with the top hole on the BMR brackets.....but it's not optimal to mix. That results in a much to severe Anti-Squat setting.

    Moral - Stock height, use BMR UCA Mount in lower hole / no relos. Lowered, use upper spot on BMR mount, with relos.

    Pinion Angle: First off, I want to post this. Everyone should use this....it has been a life saver for me. Ignore anything else you see, this is what you do. The debate comes into play, when talking about "what" to set it at...
    PinionAngle-1pcShaft-1.jpg

    Again, something I conjured up. This is likely the most common topic for me at the office. I am going to end up making a video. Pinion angle is likely the easiest thing ever, people just severely over-complicate it.

    That said.....I recommend in that picture. The REAL deal is, you want 0 degrees. Unfortunately, you cannot always have 0 degrees... You have to pick, 0 degrees when putting around town, then have bind under WOT/Load....or do you want -2, -1, etc....then 0 degrees when abusing the car. Its a tough call, I usually leave the end decision up to the customers. What I will state, is, I do not like to see more than 3 degrees pinion angle on any combo, ever.

    If they are the ones I am thinking about, they sure do look a heck of a lot like ours. So - I am fairly confident our Relo Brackets will fit with the BBK LCA. I guess the better answer is, our Brackets work with any LCA that will fit a factory S197.

    Ehhh....I'll save that for the DS makers. I always recommend having proper working angles on/with your drive train.

    Never tested the air suspension stuff.

    I would say it would be no different.

    Not really. Technically, yes....but it starts getting deep when talking about particular angles enhancing initial acceleration rate, etc. A prime example would be, two cars that hook equally....but two completely different AS%....one car will be quicker to the sixty. One will not waste as much energy as the other.

    Your MAIN sixty improvements at this time, assuming you are not blowing the tires off, will come from testing tire pressures (sometimes more wheel speed is better), testing timing on the hit (tune), converter flash RPM, gear, etc.

    Middle position will likely be the best overall. I am unclear of your situation....although I can imagine it....can you post a pic?

    Tab location really isn't that crucial....assuming the links are adjusted properly. (minimal preload is preferred)

    As for the hole that works best, the closest hole to the main bar (shorter lever arm) will ALWAYS work better on our bar, at the drag-strip.

    Hole 1 is 854% more stiff than the stock style sway bar. (916 rate)
    Hole 2 is 1055% more stiff than the stock style bar. (1109 rate)

    Isn't it nice having companies to share all of this info? ;-)

    Test, test, and test more. Middle should work well.

    MY recommendation is:

    BMR Springs
    UCA in Upper Hole on BMR Upper Mount
    LCA in Middle Position on BMR LCA Brackets

    ^ That formula is probably the best overall combination of control arm angles and the drop of BMR Springs.

    Woot! I like the results that came from your car. I think the new "plan" will work even better. Like most of my customers, you are now a firm believer in LCA Relocation Brackets now; I love it! Your car moves OUT!

    It is true. Poly can/will bind. It is the level at which it does it, that can be of concern. Many people don't understand what little movement there is at the middle of the axle. Ever hold a pen/pencil with your thumb and pointer finger, int he middle, and make the ends go crazy? Both ends move like crazy, yet the area where your fingers are, barely move. Crazy how that works!

    [​IMG]


    You are fine with what you have, just run 'em. If and when you want an awesome bearing upgrade, I am sure we will have them available. We have (2) UCA that we are testing right now.

    No problem Larry.

    We have a manufacturing facility / sales office / shipping facility - all in one. Swing by sometime. :beer:


    Ah! I figured out who you are now. The parts are on the way! Or....should be there any time? Post pics of them!

    I can't wait either. I expect a phone call explaining how badass the car works. :beer:

    It is in testing now. Should be soon. We are working hard at releasing a few sweet components. Trust me, we want them available sooner than anyone!

    "Need"....not necessarily. You will want them though. I wouldn't drop my car over 3/4" and not use them, they are my favorite part we manufacture. :rockon:

    No. I recommend seeing what your thrust angle is, before purchasing LCA. If it is outside of the range of -.2 to .2....I highly suggest grabbing them.

    Unfortunately, the BMR loop does not agree with the location that ARH chooses to place their 02 sensors. I have asked them to move the bungs, but they said it is not as easy as it sounds. I have heard they may just offer their own loop? The only way the BMR loop works with the ARH's...to my knowledge, is, if you flip the ARH X-Pipe around. I know people do it.

    The UCA bolts need to be loosened and retightened with the car on it's wheels, as level as possible. Drive-on lift is the best and easiest way. You can also make some stacked wood/blocks and put the car on them, thats how I do it, when I don't use the lift here at the shop.

    The Steeda diff bearing, paired with our massive poly UCA (UTCA032) is actually one of my favorite UCA combinations, for all around use. That said, the bearing in the diff, can and will cause havoc to a poly UCA bushing.

    Never heard of GT500 mounts dropping the car. I guess I could measure some, I have them here.

    The only thing I have seen consistently drop the front of an S197, are the Koni struts. Not sure if it is in their design, or just ironic. IMO, a Koni strut will cause about .250 to .500" drop, additionally.

    Strange makes a 2011+ Specific Strut, so I have heard. I like the GT500/Strange combo myself.....but, if you are worried about ride-height issues...it would be safe to just get 2011+ Specific stuff.

    I tend to agree.

    If it is stock ride-height, and you don't plan on lowering it, you will want to grab the UCA and UCA Mount....and install the UCA in the lowest position. You will enjoy it, I promise. :burnout:

    No need for Panhard relo.

    You want these:

    TCA019
    CAB005
    UTCA032
    UCM002
    PHR006

    That will do wonders, both in results and the feeling you get when pushing the car hard.

    You are quite welcome.

    As for the "skip" - a Watts Link is ultimately the best way around it...if just comparing the PHR to the Watts. That is why we are working on a Watts to hopefully release for 2014.

    You can also use softer compound tires, some adjustable struts/shocks and a slightly stiffer rear spring to help alleviate it, but it may not work 100%.

    You can set your pinion angle on a slope....and it should "work"....just ensure the tires are loaded up into the car. If you cannot do that, you need to set the pinion angle on a drive-on lift.

    :rockon: Veddy Nice.

    Koni Yellows is your answer.

    Why? Because they are designed for people like you. They have aggressive compression, and "can" be very aggressive on Rebound, when adjusting. The Koni Yellows are my favorite strut/shock combo for someone looking for more stiffness and increased handling, without going coilovers.

    I just got out of a meeting about it. We are working on finalizing our new F/R Sway Bars.....the new UTCA033 Bearing UCA....the new Rod-End UCA....and 6 different sets of S197 Springs (Performance, Drag, Handling - GT500 and GT)

    Our R&D Engineer (founder of BMR) is going to be working heavily on the Watts within the next few weeks. It is much more complicated from start to finish, for a system like the Watts Link....AND we have 3 different designs that we still have to eliminate down to (1). It's coming!

    I am really hoping for mid-year release....and we are going to try to keep it in the $800 range, or less. It depends on how fancy we get with the components. The most cost effective way, is for the system to be primarily composed of BMR Welded Steel components. The "Billet" stuff really starts jacking the price up. As of right now, the only "Billet" piece is our center pivot / propeller:

    20131223_161021.jpg

    A panhard brace is designed by OEM / Engineers to structurally support the Panhard Mounting bracket / system.

    Over time, on a panhard bar suspension, the panhard bar mounting bracket tends to get fatigued. When this point is fatigued, it wants to distort....and when it distorts, the factory POS support brace allows it to do-so, to a certain "degree".

    We have been building parts for panhard bar suspensions longer than any of our S197 competitors....so this is of course why we came to the market with that piece before anyone else. We see it everyday, a customer with a 1982 Camaro that has a panhard bar mount that is all out of whack.

    Great question! I am surprised more people do not ask me this. :beer:

    I'm not worried about it. We share mutual respect for each other (BMR/Steeda). I even recommend a few of their components, when ours won't cut it...or we do not offer it. It's natural for Company Y to think their parts are better than Company X.

    It will more than likely be diff mounted, so no worries. :beer:

    Gotta love growing lists!

    You want the UTCA032 UCA....paired with the UCM002 Upper Mount....and you want to install the UCA into the upper-most hole on the UCA Mount.

    I like to recommend starting with the settings on the struts and shocks softer, and neutral.....THEN adjust based on what the car is doing, or what it "wants" to do when launching, or cornering.

    If I had to guess, you will have the best luck with the rears at 3/4 stiff and the fronts 3/4 to full loose. ;-)

    hoodley, I am surprised the lowest hole in the LCA Brackets are working for you, on street tires. You must really be utilizing your clutch? Which is awesome, but, if you are good with your clutch...the middle position will probably get you a better ET.

    Based on what you wrote, I would recommend the UCA/Mount with the UCA in the Upper position. I also recommend removing the front sway-bar, and using a single adjustable front strut like the Strange S6009LM. Id' set them to 3/4 to full loose.

    After those mods, I'd grab a set of Viking Double Adjustable Shocks, B226. These will help tremendously with maintaining traction on a stiff compound tire.

    After those, and meeting your goal, come back in here to take it a step further. ;)

    Well, I do actually have people that pay me to get their cars to hook - but that's another story in itself. It usually requires me being there physically. ;)

    Just doing my job.

    Yes, the lowest hole will cause a great initial bite, then unload. Having the LCA that steep (angle) will lift the car, then when the car comes down - the force on the tires is removed = tire spin.

    While we are on that topic. Check this picture out:
    View attachment 17848


    Then....imagine standing on a scale, body straight. Your feet are the tires, your legs are the suspension, and body...well, the body of the car.

    If you are standing straight and squat very quickly, what happens to the reading on the scale?

    Now...being squatted.....shoot up to the straight up position, quickly. What happens to the reading on the scale?

    Duh duh, chhhh

    I would not say normal, but, it does not surprise me. In order to eliminate wheel hop/tire shake 100% - you have to maximize both traction AND axle stability.

    You can maximize axle stability all you want, but you cannot really maximize traction on a wet road.

    So yes, wheel-hop on wet/damp surfaces is not abnormal, regardless of your suspension and chassis modifications.

    My first advice would be to try and adjust the struts and shocks, that is what they are made for. For the Koni Yellow / BMR Spring combo....I like the fronts at about 3/4 and the rears at 1/2.

    Our bars are in testing now, so I would hold out. They share some similarities to the Hotchkis pieces, too.

    To answer - I think they are great pieces.

    Koni's of any sort, are one of the last things I recommend for cutting a good sixty foot time. Is it possible, yes.

    The best bang for the buck is Strange Singles up front, and Viking Doubles out back. I have been pushing this combo for quite a while, and you can tell how well it works - as its a daily mentioned combo now. lol

    The front should be about 2 months. The rear about 4-5.

    Everything should clear fine. :beer:

    I wouldn't say "better"....but, a double adjustble rear shock is a good idea when looking to dial in your suspension on an S197.

    If the Strange were double adjustable, they would be the same price or more expensive....so you really cannot compare the $89 Strange S6008 to the $175 Viking DA.

    Brian! I was just getting around to catching up on emails - I have been down with the Flu for almost two weeks, unfortunately. Anyhow, this would be a good place to answer for you.

    You will want an adjustable panhard bar. Our PHR006 is our #1 selling component here at BMR, and likely the most commonly found panhard bar under S197's on the road today.

    Lower Control Arms will tighten up the rear axle, and help with wheel hop and increased traction. The SOTP feeling with these is incredible, too. For these, I recommend our TCA019.

    Lower Control Arm Relocation Brackets - simply put, these are THE best bang for the buck when looking to increase the performance of your S197's suspension. These pieces will help correct the LCA angle, after you lower the car. These brackets help with wheel-hop, and of course, promote traction like you would not believe. The part # on these is CAB005.

    Upper Control Arm; extremely important piece to the puzzle, as well. You can typically do well by just upgrading the LCA and the LCA Brackets....but words cannot describe the force seen by the UCA within the S197 3-link suspnension. Not only does this piece see a lot of pulling force, but it is also crucial to adjust your drivetrain/line working angles after lowering your car.
    The piece I recommend for this is the UTCA032. This is the same piece that can be found on a large # of the record setting/holding 2001+ Mustangs....and is also the piece that comes standard on the Shelby S1000. :beer:

    Here is a quick before and after:

    2013 Mustang GT M6 Brembo Package Wheel Hop 1 - YouTube

    2013 Mustang GT Brembo Package Wheel Hop Cured 1 - YouTube

    Of course, when you get the UCA.....you also want to get the UCA Mount, which is the UCM002.

    These pieces will be your best starting point. They will offer for adjustment, increase the rigidity/stabilization of the rear axle assembly, help control wheel-hop, and help promote/maximize traction.

    Hope that helps!

    Poly/Poly are not huge no-no's on an S197 3-link style suspension.

    On the '79-'04 Triangulated 4-Link, I never recommend a full Poly Combo, though. That system is "bind city"...and really needs bearings on the axle side of the control arms.

    This S197 is completely different, in a good way. The Torque boxes are fine, and poly is fine.

    For the track (strip)? If so:

    Middle Hole LCA Brackets
    Start with 6C / 3R on the Vikings
    Start with 75% full loose on the D-Spec Fronts

    Let me know how it does.

    Awesome! Let me know how it goes! Collin does great work.

    You will gain a little bit of positive camber by flipping the USM 180 degrees.

    When you rotate the tops, it will move the upper portion of the strut "outward" about 1/4". This will definitely help fight against negative camber, but, just a little.

    In your case, I would loosen the driver side lower strut/spindle pieces....pull the TOP of the spindle OUT as much as possible....and have a second hand tighten the hardware down. It should get you to -1.1 range; possibly even within the same range as the pass side.

    Positive Caster is when the top of the strut is closer to the rear of the car / bottom of strut is closer to front of car. (leaning back)

    Negative is when the bottom of the strut is closer to the rear of the car.. (leaning forward)

    The OEM bushing is okay on most people's combos, for a while. The more rigid UCA system will play havoc - but, we still have the OEM on ours. We don't change parts like those until they fail - as it helps me provide the best knowledge to my customers. This is why we are still rocking the stock DS.....because we have not broken it yet.

    The MOST IMPORTANT thing, pertaining to the OEM Diff Bushing that people should know/remember is; you NEED to ensure you Torque the differential side of the UCA down when the car is at it's ride height, sitting on the tires. I'd bet that 75% of the people who destroy their OEM diff bushing, are lowered and never took the preload out of the bushing.

    We do compensate for the arc, in our positions on the LCA Brackets.....BUT, that only "works" if the brackets are EXACTLY where they should be positioned. It is difficult to ensure each and every installation is exact....it is tough when dealing with increasing the length of the lever.

    Your best choice would be to just install the components, and see where your at afterwards. Let me know.

    Too much hook!!!! Anytime you find this happening, you should thank me. It's simple from here on out. Your goal is to either launch higher, or promote some wheel speed. Either will improve your 60' drastically.

    Try 5500....6000...6500....etc.

    If you are scared of RPM, raise the LCA up a hole and raise the tire pressure 1-2 psi.

    Let us know!

    It sounds like you may simply be overpowering the P-Zeros.

    Try to lower the tire pressure a bit, and see if it helps. Occasionally, this can happen, where the increased anti-squat can cause the tires to spin even more. A softer compound tire, or stickier pavement is usually the fix. Our upper control arm Mount, in the upper position, should help too.

    You are experiencing the result from increased rigidity from the rear suspension pieces.

    The noise you are hearing, specifically, is likely a combination of increased road noise and drivetrain operating frequencies.

    There is no reason to be alarmed, unless you are experiencing noises that sound like the car is falling apart, IE; massive and loud clanking / clunking.

    It is 100% normal to experience what you are.

    Box VS Round Tube:

    I don't really want to get into the super specifics here, but I will shed some light on why we like the box tube material.

    Mass for Mass, Weight for weight, technically, the round tubing is stronger. That said, with the S197 LCA....the boxed tubing we use, is definitely stronger on paper than round tubing (or, most round tube offerings)

    The primary reason that we use the box, is to ensure we can get a clean full "wrap" around the bushing end.

    The weakest way to design a load bearing bushing end/pivot point, is to join the bushing end with a small tube. This is the reason our adjustable UCA have those massive adjusters, instead of welding a threaded rod to the bushing end.

    Adjustable VS Non-Adjustable:

    Most of my customers do just fine with non-adjustable LCA. Adjustment comes in handy when you want to "perfect" your rear suspension geometry, in terms of alignment. For example, if you install non-adjustable LCA, and have a thrust angle of say .10 to .25 (somewhat common)....it is within "spec", which is -.50 to .50.....but it is not perfect. You CAN dial it in to zero, but it takes some serious manipulation of the rear suspension. Much harder than just adjusting a LCA to hit the spec.

    Often times, you can get your thrust angle zeroed out with the panhard bar adjustment, BUT....I'd rather the axle be centered within the rear chassis, THEN adjust thrust angle via LCA. Now, too much of anything is bad...so if you have to adjust one LCA more than 1/4" or so different than the other, then you will want to start looking into modifying or manipulating the mounting points of the LCA, etc.

    The other benefit to adjustable LCA is the ability to alter wheel base. In handling applications, slightly short wheel bases can be beneficial for throwing the car around aggressively, longer wheel bases can be optimal when road coursing, with not much aggressive maneuvers. Lengthening the wheelbase increases stability, per say.

    In drag racing, longer wheel base is always better.

    Other adjustments can be beneifical, when speaking of wheel base. For example, if someone likes to run SERIOUS anti-squat....OR, serious squatting.....the wheels/tires actually come forward on launch, which will enable the tire to hit the fenders. I see this A LOT. The rear axle is on an arc. The more suspension travel, the more the wheels move forward.

    The best LCA we offer, happen to be the adjustable. Simply because bearings work better for EVERYTHING (except NVH) than poly. So, in other words, the best performing LCA we offer is a fully adjustable set with bearing ends. Not necessarily the best because adjustable, but, the best; because racecar.

    Lowered Car with LCA / LCA Relocation Brackets:


    I have definitely touched on this earlier, but my recommendation for a lowered car is to get our UCA Mount that has an upper hole specifically engineered for a lowered S197 that uses LCA Brackets. Install the LCA Brackets into the Middle hole to start, then figure out which of the 3 positions works best. Most times, it is the middle.

    In terms of adjustability for these LCA, on a lowered car and relocation brackets.....it isn't necessarily needed, but the more adjustability the better. I cannot promise each and every customer, out of tens of thousands, that their "specs" will be dead nuts OEM with these modifications, so adjustable LCA are definitely worth having. 9 times out of 10, I just recommend our good ole non-adjustable poly bushed LCA though.

    Future BMR Spring options / availability:

    They are not available yet. Springs are somewhat complicated, from start to finish in terms of releasing them to the public. You will definitely know when they are available.

    The drops are all going to be in the 1.5" range. This is the height that we feel the S197 should be at, and is also the height we engineer our components around. Drag, looks, handling.....we prefer the 27.25" to 28" fender heights for all of it. Of course, results may vary based on tire heights, etc.

    The Roush UCA is pretty good, for what it's intended purpose is.

    Personally, I am very picky about what combinations that I feel comfortable recommending it for.

    For example, I don't like the lowered UCA mounting point of the Roush UCA on a lowered car. The lowering of the car already does this....so I like LCA Brackets for IC Change.

    Another thing I do not like, is the fact that they use the 8.5" Length UCA instead of the lengthened 11+ UCA, which is 9.5". An inch really does make a big difference, despite what we all try to convince ourselves of.... lol

    The longer UCA leads to increased axle stability in every condition. Handling, braking, acceleration, decel, etc.

    That being said, MY recommendation when a customer calls with a similar request, is to do the BMR UCA Mount in the lower position.....and a set of LCA.

    You keep the OEM NVH level of the UCA, while using a lowered mounting point on the BMR Mount which helps with traction and wheel hop.

    Is the OEM UCA better than the Roush, or the BMR? Meh - not really. Can it work well? For many, yes.

    My vote is:

    UCM002 ($149.95)
    TCA032 ($89.95)

    Finally - wheel hop is tricky. Sometimes a complete rear suspension will not cure it 100%....and sometimes only (1) upgrade like LCA, will cure it. I cannot promise, ever, that XXXX will 100% rid of wheel hop, unfortunately.

    Good luck!

    I use channel locks to adjust the center piece (they have a good angle to them, easiest way I have found)

    When tightening, I use the combo of a Crescent wrench, and an open ended 1.5" wrench. We have a "combination" 1.5" wrench that we use, it is about 15" long.

    If you cannot get to it to tighten it down, after you set the pinion angle....hand tighten the nuts, then drop the rear-end down. You can even disconnect the rear shocks, and hang it down pretty far. That will allow you to use some "ooomph"

    I also highly recommend name brand blue Loc tite under the jam nuts.

    Hope that helps.

    By the looks of your pic, and the video....I would want a little more Anti-Squat. Of course, this is if the tires and track can handle it.

    My suggestion is to do the following: (what I would do if I had your car)

    Front struts at 2 clicks from soft
    Rear Shocks at 4C/7R
    UCA in Top Hole
    LCA in Middle Hole
    Tire PSI @ 12.5 - 14PSI cold.
    Launch RPM at 5800RPM minimum.

    To get past the 1.6X range in N/A 430 rwhp trim......it "usually" takes 5800+ RPM launches....and a decent amount of Anti-Squat.

    One of the reasons I don't really recommend the CJ springs up front.....is because you usually have to run more Rebound stiffness than I prefer......to prevent bouncing/unloading. The BMR front spring is where "its at"

    I would also like to see the car on a 28" tire.

    Then we can hit that thing REALLY hard. ;)

    When a customer wants what you have described, I have been very successful at fulfilling their needs with my recommendations - even though the parts that I recommend aren't all my parts (BMR)

    In the near future, I will have some springs that would tickle your fancy, but at this time...here is what I recommend personally.

    -FRPP P Springs
    -Koni Yellows -or- Bilsteins
    -GT500 Upper Strut Mounts -or- Vorshlag CC Plates if you want CC adjustment
    -BMR Panhard Bar (PHR006)
    -BMR Relocation Brackets (CAB005) - *Top or Middle Position
    -BMR Lower Control Arms (TCA021)

    Then, to top it off.....the new Mack Daddy Sway Bars we just released:
    -BMR Front Bar, 5-Way/38mm (SB041)
    -BMR Rear Bar, 4-way/25mm (SB042)

    This package will give you what I like to call, a "soft spring / big bar" approach. It will be comfortable enough for daily driving, and will give you a grin from ear to ear on road course, AutoX - HPDE's etc.

    The combination of the spring rates, and the compression valving on the Koni or Bilsteins...will definitely assist in ridding of that nasty dive.

    The Sway Bars will give you the ability to tune in that additional roll stiffness/wheel rate....due to the mild rate of the P-Springs. The Springs will likely give you the look you are after, to boot.

    The LCA / Relos....these will assist you in powering through the corners...and slightly aide you in turning, due to the roll steer advantage.

    Say goodbye to wheel hop, and sloppy braking and cornering. Be sure to post results after you perform these mods, I love hearing about it!

    I do not think an UCA is necessary, but I do recommend them. I mean, I also recommend all the other parts we make too, but I was giving you more of a "start here, to get your best bang for the buck - for what yo are looking for"

    If you are going to install a 1-Piece DS - well go ahead and add the UCA and Mount to the list. If you are going to stick with your OEM DS....I'd do the UCA at a later date. Start with the goodies I listed, then work from there - IMO.

    I do not believe the P Springs are softer than the Brembos 131F / 167R rates. Maybe during their progressive rate portion of the spring, but I doubt they are softer when actually being put to use.

    TP did not come with the GT500 Mounts.

    You don't "need" to install them, but I highly recommend it.

    I will find a post I made somewhere else, and show you why I like the GT500 Mounts. Keep in mind, You need to run 05-10 Style Struts, to use GT500 Mounts.

    GT500 mounts are $120

    11+ OEM Mounts are $80.

    I can't help but find it funny how people believe the "newer style must be better" - when, a 2014 GT500 comes with - you got it, GT500 Mounts. ;)

    Personally, I cannot stand the 11+ GT/V6/Boss Mounts. We have had way too many issues here, with them. Not only do they have issues with falling apart, breaking, etc....but they also have issues making noise - due to their poor design. The GT500 Mounts are also easier to install (properly)

    Here is a direct comparison I did. GT500 Mount is the larger one, with the thicker rubber.

    20140915_100255_zpsehvgk9n1.jpg
    20140915_100330_zpsvbruyyf4.jpg
    20140915_100401_zps8gx9bcu1.jpg
    20140915_100617_zpshbt5mdty.jpg
    20140915_100650_zpsbjrevobq.jpg


    One of the "issues" I have with the 11+ Mounts, is the tiny amount of material they use. You can clearly see what I am referring to above, with the picture of it on the spring It is very common to see that rubber split/crack where the coil spring leaves the mount....causing some squeaking, groaning noises.

    2011-2014 GT/V6/Boss Strut on Left ----- 2005-2010 GT/V6 & 07-14 GT500 Strut on Right

    20140916_112232.jpg

    If it were my car, and based on my experiences - I would run 2 click on the rear, and 5 clicks on the front. That seems to be the sweet spot for street use, with the Strange dampers and most lowering springs.

    Fender arch measurements simply give me a rough idea of what to work with. Some people say there is no way I can give recommendations based on them, but I have "worked" with pretty much every set-up, and have a good idea.

    For a 28.75" fender arch - I would use the OEM LCA position, and the lower hole in our UCA Mount.

    The other option would be, the upper hole in our UCA Mount, and the Top hole of our LCA Brackets. Of course, you can go more aggressive....but you will need to test to see what positions work best.

    GT500 Mounts require a 2005-2010 Strut, or a GT500 Strut.

    When comparing a bolt-on SFC to a weld-in, the Weld-In "pros" far outweigh the "pros" of the bolt-in pieces.

    The only con for a weld-in, is, you have to weld it. A subframe connector works best welded in, as there is no slipping or deflection of the mounting points. Personally, I would rather not use a SFC than to use a Bolt-On SFC.

    I honestly don't give much praise to STB and their improvement on a handling application.

    I like them because they help keep the front square. You would not believe how minor of an incident, will cause the towers to shift. I've had plenty of customers over the years, try to install our STB - and them not fit. The reason was, minor fender benders or hitting curbs. Pretty telling IMO. I once thought a STB was a waste of time, but after doing what I do for so long...I am a fan of them.

    Hard tire racing - you want a little wheel speed. You do not want to blow the tires off, but you DO want some spin. The reason is because, making them dead hook requires lack of RPM / Hit. If you can get them to spin just a little, the car will ET and MPH better.

    I would either increase the anti squat until you over power the tires slightly....or raise up tire pressure - or both, to induce a little wheel speed.

    Consistent 1.65 by "dead hooking" or? Have a video? A 1.65 can be done by hooking hard, or spinning the tires. If you are spinning the tires, then we need to adjust the suspension a little.....if you are dead hooking, I would raise the launch RPM up until you don't hook first, then come down a little......OR I would try and induce some wheel speed by either tire pressure adjustments, or suspension tweaks.

    What is it doing on the hit?

    For a handling application, I really don't like a Poly Non-Adjustable FLCA. I have had a few guys bust those poly (front) bushings up...and it just does no good.

    I ALWAYS recommend an adjustable LCA for handling, simply because they perform better and they are more durable for road course abuse.

    As for the geometry, our A-Arms are not designed to be used with anti-dive (increased) - I personally never recommend raising that back mount with our arms, simply because of the increase twisting force placed on the assembly. I have guys doing it, but I am leary of that. I usually recommend getting the components in bare, and spray painting them silver, to easily spot any damage if it presents it's ugly head.

    I like the tall ball joint, for roll center improvement. That said, they can cause issues. The wheel moves slightly inboard, which can cause clearance issues with large brake kits (rotors)....and they can also cause some headache with alignment (tires will be toes out upon initial install)

    As for the Poly VS Bearing - the NVH will definitely be a little more noticeable with the bearing. If you are worried at all, about NVH, then an aftermarket FLCA / or the aftermarket bushing&joint kits may not be your best route.

    I am not familiar with the Valvoline. I have tested most lubricants, but I have not tested the Valvoline Multi-Purpose.

    You just want to ensure the grease you use, is full synthetic.

    My personal favorite is the AMsoil Polymeric. This stuff resists wash out, and push out, better than anything I have ever tested.

    http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produ...-and-equipment-grease-nlgi-2/?code=GPTR2CR-EA

    Typically, RLCA Relocation Brackets will benefit any combo that has been lowered < .750"

    If your entire suspension is adjustable, then I recommend:

    -Set panhard bar
    -Set LCA for thrust angle / wheelbase (OEM is 107.1" wheelbase...I like 107.25" if you can get by with it)
    -Set pinion angle

    After that is completed, go back and check the PHR adjustment to ensure the axle/body relation is within 1/8".

    LCA and LCA Brackets should make a huge difference. We had amazing results when we tested our car on 150 shot, stock LCA position VS BMR Relocation Positions. It was drastic.

    As for a code, we do have a code for our site which is KA7...or you can also check out our eBay store:

    http://stores.ebay.com/BMR-Suspensi...14694018&_sid=810196228&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322

    Good luck and Happy Modding!

    We designed, the LCA Brackets and the Sway Bar Relocation brackets to work together, with OEM Rear Sway Bars.

    The clearance is very tight sometimes, and I cannot promise it will work. Thousands have done it, though.

    If you do have clearance issues, there are ways to solve it - it just takes a phone call to me.

    Good luck!

    About 1.5 months.

    The spherical bearings can be loud and clunky. There are ways around that though, like the Seals It rod-end boots and an O-Ring on the Inner Pivot Mount bearing sides.

    It is difficult to get a car with 400+HP to hook "good" on regular street radial tires. Especially from low speeds.

    In your current situation, it may take clean roads....and warm temps, with warm tires, and good driving to make the car hook good.

    My recommendation is to get a softer compound rear tire on the car, so you can take full advantage of the suspension components you are using.

    BMR-SP075 (GT500 Drag Springs)
    STR-S6009LM (Strange Struts)
    VIK-B226 (Viking Shocks)

    I would like to see the UCA and Mount you have, so I can determine what position to use for the mounting point.

    Then, I will be able to recommend everything to you - like, tire PSI, UCA/LCA positions, and shocks/strut settings.

    The most important thing you can do right now is to swap dampers....but I highly recommend BMRifying the components above, so we can get the car working.

    This is THE best lubrication for Poly, that I have ever used.

    http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produ...ent-grease-nlgi-2/?code=GPTR2CR-EA&zo=1859448

    Now that is one badass package. It looks like you are a fan of doing things the right way.

    As for the TCA022 - I say go for the TCA021. If you are going to use a bearing on one side, may as well make it adjustable.

    With the TCA021 you can optimize the wheelbase (longer is almost always better for open track, and drag....and shorter is better for AutoX, generally) - as well as enable you to square the rear up perfectly and get the thrust angle to ZERO. Not only those, but if/when the bearing fails, it is cheaper and easier to replace the bearing on the TCA021.

    With the TCA021, you can also run the Seals It Boots (Part # RERS3). These will lessen NVH increase, and help provide a longer life to the bearing due to keeping it DE-contaminated.

    The Watts should be available in a month. I cannot promise it, but it should be.

    Bilstein and Koni, I am neutral on. I really like the Koni's, and so do hundreds of my customers. I am also a big fan of the Bilsteins.

    When push comes to shove, if the car is going to be used on a track....I'll take the Koni's all day over the Bilsteins.

    Not taken as a slight. I can completely see why people would get sticker shock when seeing the price of our "Ultimate" UCA Assembly.

    This piece was a no-holds barred design process. I have entire development threads about the UTCA033 - walking people through the process.

    http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/showthread.php?968242-All-of-this-UCA-talk!&highlight=

    We chose to use 7075 Aluminum (anodized of course) instead of 6061.

    For the center adjuster (which is the strongest and largest in the industry, and was "knocked off" for the Cobra Jet program) we decided to drill it out, to remove some weight from the system.

    The 1" bearing (only UCA to feature a 1" bearing, housed) is a US Made FK Bearing, that goes for about $35 for the bearing alone. It is load rated to 90,000lbs! To put that into perspective, your average 3/4" rod end UCA from most makers is load rated to about 24,000lbs. I have a folder full of photos of broken 3/4" Rod ends that were used on UCA systems on the S197 Platform. You will never see us use a traditional Style Rod-End for an UCA on a 3-Link Style Suspension. Heck, we don't even make a Rod-Ended UCA for any car, all housed spherical bearings.

    With that bearing, there is also the cost of our own custom billet machined bearing cup. In the thread I linked above, you will see development shots with these UCA systems and each bearing cup is marked. We weld to the cup, so we have to precisely engineer the cup to ensure the bearing press is smooth and UN-interrupted. We have a lot of time and money into the bearing end on this UCA. 7075 spacers, FK 1" Bearing, Billet Cup, HD Steel Retaining ring. Pricey..

    On the opposite end of the bearing, we added a 3/16" steel gusset to this piece. Our Poly UTCA032 does not feature this part, as it has never been needed - but we know that going to a bearing places a lot more load on the aft end of the UCA, so we went ahead and addressed this before ever having an issue.

    Between the engineering costs, machining, uniqueness and low volume....I am actually happy that it is now $319.95

    For the last year, it was $349.95 and flew off the shelves. Due to volume increasing more than we anticipated, we were able to drop the price and pass it along.

    Our UCA Mount is $159.95 because it is more complex than most, is better engineered, and to my knowledge - we are the only company that double welds the pieces together. The CNC formed plate that welds to the body mount plate, is welded completely on the top and bottom side. Doing so, makes the manufacturing costs rise substantially because we have much more fabrication time into it, AND it is much harder to build to fit properly due to the amount of heat we place into it (from double welding it)

    Rest assured, we have never had an UCA mount fail, and we have never had an UCA fail - so people buy our components with confidence that they are the best.

    As for using a Poly UCA for handling duty, no way I would ever do that. I rarely ever recommend it, and if I do recommend it I ask the customer to use a bearing on the diff mount to prevent excessive binding.

    My personal favorite combo is a poly diff bushing, paired with a bearing UCA.

    ^ I can help.

    Drop the LCA down a hole, raise the shocks settings out back to 10C / 5R, set the struts to 2 clicks, and launch at 4000 again after a 5 second long 2nd gear burnout.

    As for the hop on the burnout, is the car one wheel peeling? Do you have our poly bushings? If so, maybe it is time to replace the bushings, or upgrade to bearings. Stick cars and bearings are best friends, especially with 500+HP.

    I like combos like yours to launch in the 4500RPM range, with just a little bit of wheel speed.

    My suggestion for you is to

    -Strange Struts in the 2-3 click range clockwise, from full soft.
    -Viking Shocks in the 5C / 9R range.
    -Tires at 13.5 - 14 PSI cold, pre-burnout

    There is not a magical setting. I only provide base settings from my experiences with many combinations (I have direct personal experience with your combo) - BUT the most important thing is take notes on every pass, and find a pattern. This is one reason I like a 2-step, to help with finding that pattern. Too often, people just give up on experimenting and launch at say, 2K rpm. The proper way to do it is to push the limits, and make the car work above and beyond what your settling for. So for example in your case, if the car "works" at 2K rpm, but does not perform to your liking....you need to be making passes at higher RPM and finding what will improve your times in those scenarios. This, again, is why I like the 2-steps. Set it at 3500 and make your adjustments until you get it to work. Then 4K...repeat....etc etc.

    In your case, the settings you have provided are too low. Honestly, anything under 6 or so on C/R basically removes the benefit of having such a good rear shock - a $90 Strange Shock would work just as well.

    Stick shift cars hit the tires harder, so naturally, you will run stiffer settings to help control the "hit" to the tires.

    Now back to your car. If this new setting I told you works initially, then unloads.....repeat the run and add a click to the front struts (you DO NOT want the front to come up "too" quickly, because it disrupts the rear)

    If the car blows the tires off initially....immediately on the hit, raise the Rebound up a little on the rear shocks. You are using the lowest position on the RLCA Brackets, so there is two ways to approach it. First, you can go LOW on the Rebound to let the suspension hit the tires hard (usually better for Autos) or you can go HIGH on the Rebound, to apply a hard but steadier, more controlled hit to the tires (usually better for stick cars....or high RPM Trans Brakes)

    Hope this helps!

    Set the front struts at 2 clicks.

    LCA in the middle position on the relos.

    Start with the Vikings at 7C/11R.....and work the "R" down until it works for you.

    As for the UCA Mount, it should help a little, but I cannot promise you will get substantial gains from it. If you were to need the lower position on the UCA Mount, which you shouldn't - then it would be very good gains.

    Let us know who it works!

    You are quite welcome! I enjoy it.

    What you are experiencing is a panhard bar suspension. That is how they work, and the effects are amplified by the RLCA Brackets. (steeper the angle, the more pronounced it will be, due to the increased leverage/arc)

    I wouldn't worry about it. ;-)

    Woohoo!

    When the time comes for dialing it in, just revisit this thread and I will be happy to assist!
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2015
  2. Blazer707@TBR

    [email protected] Master Ford Tech Authorized Vendor

    Messages:
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    Bay Area
    Would an ARB help out a N/A car?
     
  3. 1Bad5.0

    1Bad5.0 New Member Established Member

    Messages:
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    Location:
    New Orleans
    OK, you asked for it LOL....I recently installed the double adjustable sperichal lca, and the adjustable uca, and mount.....this is a stock ride height car.......what would be the next steps for improved traction

    N/A A6 with a circle d 4C
     
  4. 1Bad5.0

    1Bad5.0 New Member Established Member

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    New Orleans
    Yeah I was wondering the same too
     
  5. nonliberal

    nonliberal Active Member Established Member

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    Missouri
    Tis the season, once it warms up around here you can bet your ass you will be getting questions and video to examine from me. lol

    Right now I probably wouldn't get enough traction to cause the suspension to react.
     
  6. Voltwings

    Voltwings Well-Known Member Established Member

    Messages:
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    Houston
    When lowering the car, which is more important to address first (if its relevant): Getting an adjustable panhard bar to re-center the axle, or an adjustable UCA to re-align the pinion angle? (i already have LCA's and brackets.)
     
  7. blackbeast12

    blackbeast12 Dr. Frankenstang Established Member

    Messages:
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    Delaware
    For handling its more important to center the axle, for traction is more important to have an adj uca and set the perfect pinion angle! But lca's and relocation brackets have the biggest impact on traction!

    See attached:

    http://www.cherod.com/mustang/HowTo/LCA _adj.htm


    Instant Center Calculator for your drag car suspension
     
  8. Rct851

    Rct851 Well-Known Member Established Member

    Messages:
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    Houston
    Alright. I thought I read LCA,a should be installed with the suspension loaded at ride height. So I can install them with the front rolled up on ramps and jack stands under the rear axles?

    And for a bolt on power street car that is lowered on bmr springs and tokico d specs, which bracket hole should the LCAs be mounted?
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2013
  9. Blazer707@TBR

    [email protected] Master Ford Tech Authorized Vendor

    Messages:
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    Correct.
     
  10. 13BremboGT

    13BremboGT New Member Established Member

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    Here's one for you.... Best sway-bar setup for auto-X?
     
  11. rfugio68

    rfugio68 Member Established Member

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    Location:
    Southern OC
    Best setup for low rolls and auto x? I have bc coils and a phb with heim joints so far.
     
  12. Mr. Mach-ete

    Mr. Mach-ete Liberals Suck Established Member

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    Explain how ICM brackets work?
     
  13. SirJAG

    SirJAG Member Established Member

    Messages:
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    Location:
    Texas
    i have brm springs on my 12 gt/cs...on stock hardware...my ride is only bouncy at about 70-85mph over small rolling dips in the road...i hate this...what do i need to upgrade to fix this...
     
  14. blackbeast12

    blackbeast12 Dr. Frankenstang Established Member

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    A good set of adjustable struts and shocks with upgraded strut mounts should solve your problem!
     
  15. SirJAG

    SirJAG Member Established Member

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    I should've specified how do I do this without spending money?
     
  16. manolith

    manolith I Wanna go fast. Established Member

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    miami
    dont drive on any bumpy road or go over 70mph.
     
  17. BMR Tech

    BMR Tech Authorized Vendor Authorized Vendor

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    Awesome questions! I'm still feeling a little ill....from no sleep and a little too many drinks. Later this evening, I'll sit down and address a few things for those who have asked.

    Happy new year!
     
  18. VETTEHUNTER

    VETTEHUNTER No cure for this disease. Established Member

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    Kelly,

    Add these to the list since a lot of guys seem to ask..I did a lot of trial and error getting my set-up right and all this info in one place would have been nice:

    LCA Relo Brackets: Which hole for what kind of drop...In other words, how much should the LCA's be angled down from the body mount to the rear axle?

    Adjustable UCA: What mounting hole should be used for which types of set-ups?

    Pinion Angle: What angle is ideal for the the best overall compromise between performance and least amount of NVH...M6 and A6.

    I understand there is NO SINGLE answer for each question due to the endless combinations and set-ups guys are running....just looking for a starting point for those who are looking to get a good starting point when installing rear suspension components.

    Thanks
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2014
  19. Stormtrooper5.0

    Stormtrooper5.0 New Member Established Member

    Messages:
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    Houston, TX
    I've got a set of BBK LCAs but I haven't seen a specific relo bracket for them. Do you know of one I could use?
     
  20. 65sohc

    65sohc Member Established Member

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    Sep 14, 2008
    Location:
    CA
    I have read that with modest BMR-type lowering it is not necessary to adjust pinion angle if you are using a CV-equipped one piece driveshaft such as a Dynotech. Is this true?
     

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