Suspension Tech: Bring It!
- Thread starter BMR Tech
- Start date
I have a question...I have a KB 2.8 supercharger on my stock geared, stock converter A6 car. My suspension isn't ideal for drag racing (Sportlines, Koni Sports) but on a 275/60-15 MT Drag Radial, has managed a respectable 1.55 60'. Since I'm not experiencing any tire spin, are there any suspension improvements I can make that will result in a better 60' time? I think my limits right now are dictated by my choice of gear and converter, correct?
It seems some people have run into this but my problem is a bit different. I put eibach adj bars on and they are real close to the bmr brackets but it all fits as long as I use the middle or bottom hole on the lca bracet. I think the car would handle better with the lca in the upper hole but the sway bar covers the top hole and there is no room for the bolt head between the bracket and the end of the sway bar. Anybody ever run into this?
Edit: I am running prokit springs. Will the top hole be better for road course handling?
Edit: I am running prokit springs. Will the top hole be better for road course handling?
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Pinion angle must be set on any lowered car regardless of the driveshaft. Dynotech doesn't do cv style driveshafts only (dss) does!
Man, this is getting good. My reply tomorrow is going to be Epic. I know I said I was going to reply tonight, but, I am still beat from New Years....
I had no idea this would get bombarded. Awesome!!!!! I am anxiously looking forward to replying to each question as in depth as possible when I get to the office tomorrow.
I had no idea this would get bombarded. Awesome!!!!! I am anxiously looking forward to replying to each question as in depth as possible when I get to the office tomorrow.
Lol classic....hang overs suck...I didn't party this time, but as age creeps up on me, getting drunk is fun the night of. The day after is a scene from the walking dead!!! I need a full day of recovery!
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Ok quick question:
I have your SP009 lowering springs along with LCAs & brackets, adjustable UCA & mount and double adjustable shocks.
The LCA relocation bracket has 3 holes, which one should I use for my application? I put it in the middle one, but i'm not sure if thats what I should have done?
thanks man.
I have your SP009 lowering springs along with LCAs & brackets, adjustable UCA & mount and double adjustable shocks.
The LCA relocation bracket has 3 holes, which one should I use for my application? I put it in the middle one, but i'm not sure if thats what I should have done?
thanks man.
They often do, and often don't. It depends on a few things. Springs, shocks, struts, launch style/rpm, etc.
I could best answer this, if I saw a video of the car. IMO, once a car gets past mid 11's with a manual trans....they need an ARB (this is generic, but close).. With an Auto, they typically start becoming a good investment when you get into the 10's, solidly.
That's tough. I would need to know what the car is doing. It is very hard to blindly recommend additional parts, other than those listed, if I do not know how the car is reacting. If I had to blindly guess....adjustable front struts, UCA in the upper position, LCA in the top of the 3 holes...and some weight removal. That would do well. I think tuning would provide just as much improvement, as well as launch technique. Of course, the "system" or "package" is what makes it work at the end of the day.
Actually, I rank them similar. When installing aftermarket suspension components, I HIGHLY recommend the axle being perfectly centered at static ride-height. When the axle is pushed/bias to one side...it puts strain into multiple suspension and drive train components; no bueno!
Same for pinion angle.
You can torque a floating style bushing/sleeve however you wish. Of course, we always tell people to TQ them loaded....but there are a few reasons behind this. When you install aftermarket UCA/LCA/PHR etc....the ONLY bolt that NEEDS to be torqued at TRUE ride-height/load...is the rear most UCA bolt to the differential.
For your car, I recommend starting in the middle position of the BMR Relo Brackets. It is usually the best position. Not always, though.
****THOSE READING**** Speaking of torquing at ride-height. When you have jackstands under your A-Arms, and rear axle....the suspension is NOT LOADED fully. It is partially loaded. You cannot fully load the suspension / achieve static ride-height.....without having the full weight of the car sit on the front and rear tires. :beer:
Currently available, if I personally had to pick, I would do the Eibach 11+ Adjustables. Bang for the buck, and just really good performing parts. I'm not huge on their springs, but, their bars are nice.
We are going to release ours sometime this year. We have taken so long, for a good reason. :rolling:
Ouch, that is a little more complicated than I expected. That question is a little too broad. I would say, set the car up for its primary use first....then adjust the mod list from there. You can have a GREAT auto-x set-up....then swap rear tires and unbolt the front sway bar, loosen front struts, and go fast from a roll or a drag strip. It's actually easy.
Hmmm... It would take me atleast 10,000 words.
This should help.....but it is very general/basic.
Hmm. BRM springs? Never heard of 'em!
It's okay, I am still "feeling" it from New Years, too. :beer:
So - everything is stock, except the BMR Springs....right? If so, then you honestly may need to replace the front struts to cure your issue. Not really sure why some people experience this, and some do not. I would say that most do, but some don't realize or pay attention.
If you cannot decide on struts, I would be happy to assist you.
LCA Relos: Here's the deal. GENERALLY speaking....you want to multiply the amount you drop the car, by 1.5 to 2...to get the amount which you want to lower the LCA down. This is just from experience....and I am NOT saying everyone needs to do so. For example, if you drop the car 1"....a 2" LCA drop is typically the best way to go. For a larger drop, I see that the drop X 1.5 seems to be more realistic. Of course, this is just a function of the geometry/properties of suspension movement.
*A lot of this depends on the position of the UCA, as well. With a BMR UCA Mount...using the UPPER most position....the 1.5 or 2 factor is almost always perfect... For those reading, our LCA positions are 2", 3" and 4" from the factory mounting point.
It goes SOOO much deeper - but this will get people to an excellent starting point. You won't see anyone else, ever, before I just typed this.....tell you / post that info. If they did, I told them over the phone. These are the type of things I have to conjure up, because I speak to an astronomical amount of people each and every day. At the end of the day, LCA angle needs to be adjusted to see what works best. That is always better than anything I can tell someone.
Adjustable UCA: This relates to the LCA mounting point. On a lowered car, I ALWAYS like to see the stock, or upper most position on the BMR UCA Mount, be utilized....while using LCA Brackets to adjust for maximized traction. We are likely the only company that specifically designs our upper mounting point on our UCA Bracket, for a lowered car. It is actually raised slightly, compared to stock.
The lower position on our UCA Mount, this is almost always reserved (recommendaed by me) for people who have a stock ride-height car, AND NO LCA Brackets. That said, I do have people who experience awesome results on a lowered car, using the lower position on the UCA mount, with the top hole on the BMR brackets.....but it's not optimal to mix. That results in a much to severe Anti-Squat setting.
Moral - Stock height, use BMR UCA Mount in lower hole / no relos. Lowered, use upper spot on BMR mount, with relos.
Pinion Angle: First off, I want to post this. Everyone should use this....it has been a life saver for me. Ignore anything else you see, this is what you do. The debate comes into play, when talking about "what" to set it at...
Again, something I conjured up. This is likely the most common topic for me at the office. I am going to end up making a video. Pinion angle is likely the easiest thing ever, people just severely over-complicate it.
That said.....I recommend in that picture. The REAL deal is, you want 0 degrees. Unfortunately, you cannot always have 0 degrees... You have to pick, 0 degrees when putting around town, then have bind under WOT/Load....or do you want -2, -1, etc....then 0 degrees when abusing the car. Its a tough call, I usually leave the end decision up to the customers. What I will state, is, I do not like to see more than 3 degrees pinion angle on any combo, ever.
If they are the ones I am thinking about, they sure do look a heck of a lot like ours. So - I am fairly confident our Relo Brackets will fit with the BBK LCA. I guess the better answer is, our Brackets work with any LCA that will fit a factory S197.
Ehhh....I'll save that for the DS makers. I always recommend having proper working angles on/with your drive train.
Never tested the air suspension stuff.
I would say it would be no different.
Not really. Technically, yes....but it starts getting deep when talking about particular angles enhancing initial acceleration rate, etc. A prime example would be, two cars that hook equally....but two completely different AS%....one car will be quicker to the sixty. One will not waste as much energy as the other.
Your MAIN sixty improvements at this time, assuming you are not blowing the tires off, will come from testing tire pressures (sometimes more wheel speed is better), testing timing on the hit (tune), converter flash RPM, gear, etc.
Middle position will likely be the best overall. I am unclear of your situation....although I can imagine it....can you post a pic?
Tab location really isn't that crucial....assuming the links are adjusted properly. (minimal preload is preferred)
As for the hole that works best, the closest hole to the main bar (shorter lever arm) will ALWAYS work better on our bar, at the drag-strip.
Hole 1 is 854% more stiff than the stock style sway bar. (916 rate)
Hole 2 is 1055% more stiff than the stock style bar. (1109 rate)
Isn't it nice having companies to share all of this info? ;-)
Test, test, and test more. Middle should work well.
MY recommendation is:
BMR Springs
UCA in Upper Hole on BMR Upper Mount
LCA in Middle Position on BMR LCA Brackets
^ That formula is probably the best overall combination of control arm angles and the drop of BMR Springs.
I have a question I just installed my lca uca bmr springs and panhard rod. I dont have my relocation brackets welded is it true that I can bend them and my axles from hard launches?
I take it that you're feeling much better today! You answered many of my questions and I didn't even have to ask. Thank you Sir.
They often do, and often don't. It depends on a few things. Springs, shocks, struts, launch style/rpm, etc.
I could best answer this, if I saw a video of the car. IMO, once a car gets past mid 11's with a manual trans....they need an ARB (this is generic, but close).. With an Auto, they typically start becoming a good investment when you get into the 10's, solidly.
That's tough. I would need to know what the car is doing. It is very hard to blindly recommend additional parts, other than those listed, if I do not know how the car is reacting. If I had to blindly guess....adjustable front struts, UCA in the upper position, LCA in the top of the 3 holes...and some weight removal. That would do well. I think tuning would provide just as much improvement, as well as launch technique. Of course, the "system" or "package" is what makes it work at the end of the day.
Actually, I rank them similar. When installing aftermarket suspension components, I HIGHLY recommend the axle being perfectly centered at static ride-height. When the axle is pushed/bias to one side...it puts strain into multiple suspension and drive train components; no bueno!
Same for pinion angle.
You can torque a floating style bushing/sleeve however you wish. Of course, we always tell people to TQ them loaded....but there are a few reasons behind this. When you install aftermarket UCA/LCA/PHR etc....the ONLY bolt that NEEDS to be torqued at TRUE ride-height/load...is the rear most UCA bolt to the differential.
For your car, I recommend starting in the middle position of the BMR Relo Brackets. It is usually the best position. Not always, though.
****THOSE READING**** Speaking of torquing at ride-height. When you have jackstands under your A-Arms, and rear axle....the suspension is NOT LOADED fully. It is partially loaded. You cannot fully load the suspension / achieve static ride-height.....without having the full weight of the car sit on the front and rear tires. :beer:
Currently available, if I personally had to pick, I would do the Eibach 11+ Adjustables. Bang for the buck, and just really good performing parts. I'm not huge on their springs, but, their bars are nice.
We are going to release ours sometime this year. We have taken so long, for a good reason. :rolling:
Ouch, that is a little more complicated than I expected. That question is a little too broad. I would say, set the car up for its primary use first....then adjust the mod list from there. You can have a GREAT auto-x set-up....then swap rear tires and unbolt the front sway bar, loosen front struts, and go fast from a roll or a drag strip. It's actually easy.
Hmmm... It would take me atleast 10,000 words.
This should help.....but it is very general/basic.
Hmm. BRM springs? Never heard of 'em!
It's okay, I am still "feeling" it from New Years, too. :beer:
So - everything is stock, except the BMR Springs....right? If so, then you honestly may need to replace the front struts to cure your issue. Not really sure why some people experience this, and some do not. I would say that most do, but some don't realize or pay attention.
If you cannot decide on struts, I would be happy to assist you.
LCA Relos: Here's the deal. GENERALLY speaking....you want to multiply the amount you drop the car, by 1.5 to 2...to get the amount which you want to lower the LCA down. This is just from experience....and I am NOT saying everyone needs to do so. For example, if you drop the car 1"....a 2" LCA drop is typically the best way to go. For a larger drop, I see that the drop X 1.5 seems to be more realistic. Of course, this is just a function of the geometry/properties of suspension movement.
*A lot of this depends on the position of the UCA, as well. With a BMR UCA Mount...using the UPPER most position....the 1.5 or 2 factor is almost always perfect... For those reading, our LCA positions are 2", 3" and 4" from the factory mounting point.
It goes SOOO much deeper - but this will get people to an excellent starting point. You won't see anyone else, ever, before I just typed this.....tell you / post that info. If they did, I told them over the phone. These are the type of things I have to conjure up, because I speak to an astronomical amount of people each and every day. At the end of the day, LCA angle needs to be adjusted to see what works best. That is always better than anything I can tell someone.
Adjustable UCA: This relates to the LCA mounting point. On a lowered car, I ALWAYS like to see the stock, or upper most position on the BMR UCA Mount, be utilized....while using LCA Brackets to adjust for maximized traction. We are likely the only company that specifically designs our upper mounting point on our UCA Bracket, for a lowered car. It is actually raised slightly, compared to stock.
The lower position on our UCA Mount, this is almost always reserved (recommendaed by me) for people who have a stock ride-height car, AND NO LCA Brackets. That said, I do have people who experience awesome results on a lowered car, using the lower position on the UCA mount, with the top hole on the BMR brackets.....but it's not optimal to mix. That results in a much to severe Anti-Squat setting.
Moral - Stock height, use BMR UCA Mount in lower hole / no relos. Lowered, use upper spot on BMR mount, with relos.
Pinion Angle: First off, I want to post this. Everyone should use this....it has been a life saver for me. Ignore anything else you see, this is what you do. The debate comes into play, when talking about "what" to set it at...
Again, something I conjured up. This is likely the most common topic for me at the office. I am going to end up making a video. Pinion angle is likely the easiest thing ever, people just severely over-complicate it.
That said.....I recommend in that picture. The REAL deal is, you want 0 degrees. Unfortunately, you cannot always have 0 degrees... You have to pick, 0 degrees when putting around town, then have bind under WOT/Load....or do you want -2, -1, etc....then 0 degrees when abusing the car. Its a tough call, I usually leave the end decision up to the customers. What I will state, is, I do not like to see more than 3 degrees pinion angle on any combo, ever.
If they are the ones I am thinking about, they sure do look a heck of a lot like ours. So - I am fairly confident our Relo Brackets will fit with the BBK LCA. I guess the better answer is, our Brackets work with any LCA that will fit a factory S197.
Ehhh....I'll save that for the DS makers. I always recommend having proper working angles on/with your drive train.
Never tested the air suspension stuff.
I would say it would be no different.
Not really. Technically, yes....but it starts getting deep when talking about particular angles enhancing initial acceleration rate, etc. A prime example would be, two cars that hook equally....but two completely different AS%....one car will be quicker to the sixty. One will not waste as much energy as the other.
Your MAIN sixty improvements at this time, assuming you are not blowing the tires off, will come from testing tire pressures (sometimes more wheel speed is better), testing timing on the hit (tune), converter flash RPM, gear, etc.
Middle position will likely be the best overall. I am unclear of your situation....although I can imagine it....can you post a pic?
Tab location really isn't that crucial....assuming the links are adjusted properly. (minimal preload is preferred)
As for the hole that works best, the closest hole to the main bar (shorter lever arm) will ALWAYS work better on our bar, at the drag-strip.
Hole 1 is 854% more stiff than the stock style sway bar. (916 rate)
Hole 2 is 1055% more stiff than the stock style bar. (1109 rate)
Isn't it nice having companies to share all of this info? ;-)
Test, test, and test more. Middle should work well.
MY recommendation is:
BMR Springs
UCA in Upper Hole on BMR Upper Mount
LCA in Middle Position on BMR LCA Brackets
^ That formula is probably the best overall combination of control arm angles and the drop of BMR Springs.
Thank you sir, will try that out.
Thanks for the awesome info Kelly!
It is not true, that you will bend our brackets. I haven't seen one issue with them. The "older" design, we had some issues....but thats why we now have the version we have. They have proven to withstand many 1.1, 1.2 and 1.3 sixties....with no welding. I'd say they are the most proven bolt-on design ever, for the S197.
That said - I would not say it's impossible.
As for the axles, well, it happens. It is not super common....but it happens. The tubes tend to bend/twist before the axles, from our experiences. I recommend either welding the axle tubes to the diff, bolting them to the diff, or installing an axle brace....or all of those, for maximized assurance.
Feeling a little better. Fingers are sore though. Been typing all day.
NP!
NP! Just doing my job.
I am progressing towards having a full rear suspension set up of BMR parts but want to lower the car before having it all. So far I have the BMR Springs, panhard bar, relocation brackets (in the mail), and will be using Strange STR 6009\6008 shocks and struts. Eventually, I want to get BMR LCAs and the UCA and mount. Would it be ok to run everything installed before getting the LCAs and UCA? I know I'd have to go under the car twice but I have a friend who is a mechanic who should be able to help out.
**Edit** Will the Strange struts require new stock mounts or GT500 mounts as well? Feel like I have read it working both ways but just want to confirm. And I do know the stock mounts are 2 piece and have a tendency to come part, I was just going to be extra careful when removing avoid any mishaps.
**Edit** Will the Strange struts require new stock mounts or GT500 mounts as well? Feel like I have read it working both ways but just want to confirm. And I do know the stock mounts are 2 piece and have a tendency to come part, I was just going to be extra careful when removing avoid any mishaps.
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great thread! Kelly has been a big help while I've tweaked my setup this year:
'05 gt, cobra jet springs (m-5300-q), strange single adj struts/shocks, 28.5" ride height at all four corners; metco UCA/UCA bracket, metco LCA's, BMR relocation brackets, pinion angle set to -2.5deg, 17" M/T et street bias ply rear tires
UCA in upper hole on UCA bracket, LCA's in uppermost hole on BMR reloc brackets:
instant center (IC) length = 45.89", IC height = 9.53", antisquat = 105.24"
302 rwhp, 3660 lbs with driver, 5spd manual, front struts full loose, rear shocks +4, rear tires 18psi
best run in above config: 12.425 @ 108.93, with 1.673 60'
moved the LCA's to the middle position on the BMR reloc brackets, changed the rear shock settings to +3 and ran a couple of 1.65x 60 foot times
launch pic another one
this last pic is one of the 1.65x 60' runs - doesn't look like much but the suspension is working. I have a bit more tweaking to do, but I hope to get down to the low 1.6's, high 1.5's in the spring :banana:
'05 gt, cobra jet springs (m-5300-q), strange single adj struts/shocks, 28.5" ride height at all four corners; metco UCA/UCA bracket, metco LCA's, BMR relocation brackets, pinion angle set to -2.5deg, 17" M/T et street bias ply rear tires
UCA in upper hole on UCA bracket, LCA's in uppermost hole on BMR reloc brackets:
instant center (IC) length = 45.89", IC height = 9.53", antisquat = 105.24"
302 rwhp, 3660 lbs with driver, 5spd manual, front struts full loose, rear shocks +4, rear tires 18psi
best run in above config: 12.425 @ 108.93, with 1.673 60'
moved the LCA's to the middle position on the BMR reloc brackets, changed the rear shock settings to +3 and ran a couple of 1.65x 60 foot times
launch pic another one
this last pic is one of the 1.65x 60' runs - doesn't look like much but the suspension is working. I have a bit more tweaking to do, but I hope to get down to the low 1.6's, high 1.5's in the spring :banana:
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Lots of great information, I have a 07 vert. FR springs,BMR adjustable; UCA,LCA,Pandhard bar. with frod racing springs do you recommend up hole on the UCAand Middle on the LCA?
Looking up upgrade shocks and struts.
Car is a weekend and night summer driver. Lots high speed back roads.
Any suggestions?
Thanks
Looking up upgrade shocks and struts.
Car is a weekend and night summer driver. Lots high speed back roads.
Any suggestions?
Thanks
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Kelly, I just received my BMR panhard relocation bracket (to clear my Trick Flow rear diff cover) and panhard rod p/n PHR006, which has the poly ends. When mocking up the bracket and panhard bar, it appears that the rod won't line up with mount on the body of the car, but the rear axle is not in the car, so Im not sure if this is absolutely true. Do I need the panhard rod with a spherical end (which is what the instruction shows) or is there enough "squish" in the poly ends to be able to get the rod in both brackets?
Thanks in advance.
I also got the Adjustable UCA and mount. All parts have quality oozing from them!
Thanks in advance.
I also got the Adjustable UCA and mount. All parts have quality oozing from them!
Its hard to get a great pic but you can see the sway bar coving the top lca hole.
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