Maybe I don't have any business answering questions in this thread, but I got good results as far as traction goes by installing the relo brackets at stock height. I did everything but springs/dampers one weekend then lowered it the next, so I was only rolling around like that for a week.
Suspension Tech: Bring It!
- Thread starter BMR Tech
- Start date
Maybe I don't have any business answering questions in this thread, but I got good results as far as traction goes by installing the relo brackets at stock height. I did everything but springs/dampers one weekend then lowered it the next, so I was only rolling around like that for a week.
Absolutely.
Just put the UCA on, in the upper position on the mount, and the LCA in the top position of the (3)
Once you get the SP065 handling springs in, drop the LCA to the middle.
You are going to LOVe the Bilstein / BMR SP065 combo.....I promise that.
Kelly,
I am ordering the sp009 springs with bmr LCA/ Relo brackets/ Adj UCA and mount/ Subframes
What I dont know is the best shock/struts that would be good for me.
This is 90% a street driven car with maybe a few trips a year to the strip. I want something that would work well at the strip but since its mainly a street car I dont want to have a shit ride the rest of the time I am not at the strip.
Any recommendations? And with the sp009 spring do you think gt500 mounts and camber bolts would be fine?
Oh and its a 2013 M6 GT
I am ordering the sp009 springs with bmr LCA/ Relo brackets/ Adj UCA and mount/ Subframes
What I dont know is the best shock/struts that would be good for me.
This is 90% a street driven car with maybe a few trips a year to the strip. I want something that would work well at the strip but since its mainly a street car I dont want to have a shit ride the rest of the time I am not at the strip.
Any recommendations? And with the sp009 spring do you think gt500 mounts and camber bolts would be fine?
Oh and its a 2013 M6 GT
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Where do i start for drag race setup pieces for a 6 speed, stock , springs/ shocks/ struts.
slicks and skinnies cutting 1.7x 60s
I was thinking of starting with auca and mount to try to dial In the pinion angle?
slicks and skinnies cutting 1.7x 60s
I was thinking of starting with auca and mount to try to dial In the pinion angle?
Kelly, We have spoken over email a couple times.. Thanks for answering all the questions for everyone!
Thought I'd ask something on here for all to see...
I'm pretty set on SP065 handling springs & have just installed my Koni Yellow sports. I'm wondering what settings I should be using on the Koni once I put on SP065 springs? Would it be O.K to run full stiff with these springs? I dont mind if its an aggressive ride if that means better handling characteristics around tight corners.
Or should I look for a stiffer spring?
Thanks again! amazing customer support from BMR!
Thought I'd ask something on here for all to see...
I'm pretty set on SP065 handling springs & have just installed my Koni Yellow sports. I'm wondering what settings I should be using on the Koni once I put on SP065 springs? Would it be O.K to run full stiff with these springs? I dont mind if its an aggressive ride if that means better handling characteristics around tight corners.
Or should I look for a stiffer spring?
Thanks again! amazing customer support from BMR!
Not speaking for BMR, but it's a misnomer to think full stiff means better handling. And BMR's handling springs are already some of the stiffest out there (in a good way).
Anyone that's hit a road course more than a few times knows handling is about weight transition. Only in drifting do you want full stop transfer of force from one side of the car to the other where minor steering inputs translate into dramatic body/weight transfers, in a road course or most handling situations you want a smooth transition of weight/body pitch coming out of a corner and correcting for the next. Moreover, soaking up bumps like corner rumble strips or anything that normally unsettles the SRA is important so that this force is less of a jolt and more of force applied over a gentle slope if you were looking at a graph. This means the tire contact patch is doing its job for a longer period of time.
Smooth is fast. Start with the lowest (or one of the lower) damping settings and work up until you notice this negative effect and then adjust back. For autocross, you can run with this now established high setting or a few clicks up, as articulating the rear quickly so that its pointing the direction you need (aka the contact patch not being planted 100% of the time) is sometimes desirable.
Those uber harsh bumpy as hell euro cars you see driving around are not doing it for max handling purposes, they are doing it because their scene told them they have to.
My $.02
Anyone that's hit a road course more than a few times knows handling is about weight transition. Only in drifting do you want full stop transfer of force from one side of the car to the other where minor steering inputs translate into dramatic body/weight transfers, in a road course or most handling situations you want a smooth transition of weight/body pitch coming out of a corner and correcting for the next. Moreover, soaking up bumps like corner rumble strips or anything that normally unsettles the SRA is important so that this force is less of a jolt and more of force applied over a gentle slope if you were looking at a graph. This means the tire contact patch is doing its job for a longer period of time.
Smooth is fast. Start with the lowest (or one of the lower) damping settings and work up until you notice this negative effect and then adjust back. For autocross, you can run with this now established high setting or a few clicks up, as articulating the rear quickly so that its pointing the direction you need (aka the contact patch not being planted 100% of the time) is sometimes desirable.
Those uber harsh bumpy as hell euro cars you see driving around are not doing it for max handling purposes, they are doing it because their scene told them they have to.
My $.02
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Kelly,
I have a 2014 Track Pack and want to improve the handling. The car is my DD, but plan to do several autocross events per year and maybe 1-2 HPDEs per year. I want work in stages and I'm considering getting the following pieces in about a month (Stage 1):
KON-M1113-YE
TCA022
SP065
CAB005
UTCA033
UCM002
SB041
SB042
I'm hoping your Watts link is released by then and that would be added to the list. Also added would be the Vorshlag CC Plates.
Stage 2 will address the front end of the car with a k-member and control arms. Stage 3 will be 18" wheels and tires.
Is there anything you would recommend changing to the list? Would you recommend the Bilstein B12 vs the Koni's?
I have a 2014 Track Pack and want to improve the handling. The car is my DD, but plan to do several autocross events per year and maybe 1-2 HPDEs per year. I want work in stages and I'm considering getting the following pieces in about a month (Stage 1):
KON-M1113-YE
TCA022
SP065
CAB005
UTCA033
UCM002
SB041
SB042
I'm hoping your Watts link is released by then and that would be added to the list. Also added would be the Vorshlag CC Plates.
Stage 2 will address the front end of the car with a k-member and control arms. Stage 3 will be 18" wheels and tires.
Is there anything you would recommend changing to the list? Would you recommend the Bilstein B12 vs the Koni's?
Now that is one badass package. It looks like you are a fan of doing things the right way.
As for the TCA022 - I say go for the TCA021. If you are going to use a bearing on one side, may as well make it adjustable.
With the TCA021 you can optimize the wheelbase (longer is almost always better for open track, and drag....and shorter is better for AutoX, generally) - as well as enable you to square the rear up perfectly and get the thrust angle to ZERO. Not only those, but if/when the bearing fails, it is cheaper and easier to replace the bearing on the TCA021.
With the TCA021, you can also run the Seals It Boots (Part # RERS3). These will lessen NVH increase, and help provide a longer life to the bearing due to keeping it DE-contaminated.
The Watts should be available in a month. I cannot promise it, but it should be.
Bilstein and Koni, I am neutral on. I really like the Koni's, and so do hundreds of my customers. I am also a big fan of the Bilsteins.
When push comes to shove, if the car is going to be used on a track....I'll take the Koni's all day over the Bilsteins.
For open track/road racing would you usually recomend a length adjustable LCA? I haven't heard a lot of road racer preferring to adjust for LCA length.
I think you would want to adjust the length the square up the rear.
Kelly, forgive me if I missed this... You were testing an elastomer bushing for some of your control arms. What is the status of those bushings? Can I purchase them yet?
Adjustable LCA ALWAYS have an advantage. Zeroing out the thrust angle and adjusting the wheelbase for whatever you are using the car for, is always superior.
Typically, lengthening the wheelbase helps open track/road course and drag racers.
Shortening the wheelbase can be good for Auto X, or anything where "throwing" the car around is common.
I have a bunch of prototypes. I can set some people up with them, if they want them. You would need to call me.
I understand bias plys get along with a little wheel speed whereas a radial needs to dead hook to work. I know the answer is no before I even ask, but in a scenario where a person wants to make a stick car work with a radial tire, would it be advantageous for a person allow a little bit of axle windup to absorb some of the shock?- i.e. LCA's with rod ends but a Roush upper
This is not meant as a slight, but is there a reason why these two pieces together cost around what the whole Watts link system you're developing does (besides you doing serious work to keep the Watts $ down)?.
Is this some kind of unique teflon lined heim joint? I'd prefer to go poly upper for NVH, but have read a few cases during serious road course use of UCA poly failing leading the stang veering off the course.
Is this some kind of unique teflon lined heim joint? I'd prefer to go poly upper for NVH, but have read a few cases during serious road course use of UCA poly failing leading the stang veering off the course.
This is not meant as a slight, but is there a reason why these two pieces together cost around what the whole Watts link system you're developing does (besides you doing serious work to keep the Watts $ down)?.
Is this some kind of unique teflon lined heim joint? I'd prefer to go poly upper for NVH, but have read a few cases during serious road course use of UCA poly failing leading the stang veering off the course.
Not taken as a slight. I can completely see why people would get sticker shock when seeing the price of our "Ultimate" UCA Assembly.
This piece was a no-holds barred design process. I have entire development threads about the UTCA033 - walking people through the process.
http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/showthread.php?968242-All-of-this-UCA-talk!&highlight=
We chose to use 7075 Aluminum (anodized of course) instead of 6061.
For the center adjuster (which is the strongest and largest in the industry, and was "knocked off" for the Cobra Jet program) we decided to drill it out, to remove some weight from the system.
The 1" bearing (only UCA to feature a 1" bearing, housed) is a US Made FK Bearing, that goes for about $35 for the bearing alone. It is load rated to 90,000lbs! To put that into perspective, your average 3/4" rod end UCA from most makers is load rated to about 24,000lbs. I have a folder full of photos of broken 3/4" Rod ends that were used on UCA systems on the S197 Platform. You will never see us use a traditional Style Rod-End for an UCA on a 3-Link Style Suspension. Heck, we don't even make a Rod-Ended UCA for any car, all housed spherical bearings.
With that bearing, there is also the cost of our own custom billet machined bearing cup. In the thread I linked above, you will see development shots with these UCA systems and each bearing cup is marked. We weld to the cup, so we have to precisely engineer the cup to ensure the bearing press is smooth and UN-interrupted. We have a lot of time and money into the bearing end on this UCA. 7075 spacers, FK 1" Bearing, Billet Cup, HD Steel Retaining ring. Pricey..
On the opposite end of the bearing, we added a 3/16" steel gusset to this piece. Our Poly UTCA032 does not feature this part, as it has never been needed - but we know that going to a bearing places a lot more load on the aft end of the UCA, so we went ahead and addressed this before ever having an issue.
Between the engineering costs, machining, uniqueness and low volume....I am actually happy that it is now $319.95
For the last year, it was $349.95 and flew off the shelves. Due to volume increasing more than we anticipated, we were able to drop the price and pass it along.
Our UCA Mount is $159.95 because it is more complex than most, is better engineered, and to my knowledge - we are the only company that double welds the pieces together. The CNC formed plate that welds to the body mount plate, is welded completely on the top and bottom side. Doing so, makes the manufacturing costs rise substantially because we have much more fabrication time into it, AND it is much harder to build to fit properly due to the amount of heat we place into it (from double welding it)
Rest assured, we have never had an UCA mount fail, and we have never had an UCA fail - so people buy our components with confidence that they are the best.
As for using a Poly UCA for handling duty, no way I would ever do that. I rarely ever recommend it, and if I do recommend it I ask the customer to use a bearing on the diff mount to prevent excessive binding.
My personal favorite combo is a poly diff bushing, paired with a bearing UCA.
To add:
In terms of performance gain per dollar and touching on your comment about the Watts price VS UTCA033/UCM002 Combo.....the UCA Combo will give you more performance per dollar in my honest opinion. A bearing UCA System that has properly engineered mounting points on the mount, is definitely one of the best modifications you can make to an S197 Rear Suspension.
Also on the price, when we came up with this design, one of my primary goals was to offer a 1" bearing UCA that is the strongest and most rigid piece on the market, and adjustable, for "about" half of the price of the Multimatic/FRPP UCA used on the Boss Racecars.
As you can see, that MM piece is simply just a stock UCA that has a bearing end attached to it. Last I recall, this UCA set-up is about $650 or so.
In terms of performance gain per dollar and touching on your comment about the Watts price VS UTCA033/UCM002 Combo.....the UCA Combo will give you more performance per dollar in my honest opinion. A bearing UCA System that has properly engineered mounting points on the mount, is definitely one of the best modifications you can make to an S197 Rear Suspension.
Also on the price, when we came up with this design, one of my primary goals was to offer a 1" bearing UCA that is the strongest and most rigid piece on the market, and adjustable, for "about" half of the price of the Multimatic/FRPP UCA used on the Boss Racecars.
As you can see, that MM piece is simply just a stock UCA that has a bearing end attached to it. Last I recall, this UCA set-up is about $650 or so.
^ ok, a few things. I just updated my cart (been in my cart for awhile) and you're right it went from $350 to $320 - epic.
- Without something next to it for scale, it was hard to notice the size of the bearing.
- That bearing is enormous.
- Machined 7075? Jeebus
I went from thinking that piece seemed pretty highly priced to thinking its under priced. I also appreciate how you not only linked the thread but wrote it all out in summary here too.
They way you talk about products and manufacturing processes I swear we were separated at birth. The more you talk the more my wallet opens.
- Without something next to it for scale, it was hard to notice the size of the bearing.
- That bearing is enormous.
- Machined 7075? Jeebus
I went from thinking that piece seemed pretty highly priced to thinking its under priced. I also appreciate how you not only linked the thread but wrote it all out in summary here too.
They way you talk about products and manufacturing processes I swear we were separated at birth. The more you talk the more my wallet opens.
BMR Tech –
I need some more traction help on my 2008 GT500 convertible. I have about 500 RWP (pulley swap & tune) and 4.30 gears. Rear tires are Hooser QTP 28x11.50-15 on 10” wheels set to about 12.5 PSI. Suspension is BMR drag race springs, rear Vikings shocks set at 3/3, and front Strange struts set at 5 just are you recommended. UCA / LCA are from Eibach Pro kit. I have BMR LCA relocation brackets and am using the middle hole. The UCA bracket is from the Eibach Pro kit. It has two holes and the UCA is mounted to the body using the front hole in the UCA mount. It also has the rear anti-sway bar from the Eibach Pro Kit. The clutch is a McLeod improvement over stock.
First, the good news is the change to BMR springs and recommended shocks/struts were an improvement in making the car launch more smoothly. There was none of the squat-then-bounce up and unload I experienced with the Eibach Pro springs and shocks/struts. Thanks.
But I am still getting plenty of wheel spin from the QTP.
Launching at 4000 RPM I get spin for maybe the first 50’. It transitions smoothly to hook, but my 60’ times are 1.95.
Launching at 2000 RPM I get spin for maybe the first 30’. My 60’ times are high 1.80s, a slight improvement, but obviously I’m leaving a lot of power unused.
Launching at just above idle gave me the best 60’ of 1.81 but I really want to find a way to apply more power than that!
One other bit of data, in my burnout after I have warmed and cleaned the tires with the power still on I release the line lock and let the car advance towards the line. As the tires start to grab there is some wheel-hop as the tires start to grab. I don’t feel any wheel-hop on the launch, but I thought I’d mention it. I don’t feel or hear that intense STICK coming forward from the burnout that I’m used to if things are working right--just the hop.
Thanks for any advice you can offer about what to try next.
I need some more traction help on my 2008 GT500 convertible. I have about 500 RWP (pulley swap & tune) and 4.30 gears. Rear tires are Hooser QTP 28x11.50-15 on 10” wheels set to about 12.5 PSI. Suspension is BMR drag race springs, rear Vikings shocks set at 3/3, and front Strange struts set at 5 just are you recommended. UCA / LCA are from Eibach Pro kit. I have BMR LCA relocation brackets and am using the middle hole. The UCA bracket is from the Eibach Pro kit. It has two holes and the UCA is mounted to the body using the front hole in the UCA mount. It also has the rear anti-sway bar from the Eibach Pro Kit. The clutch is a McLeod improvement over stock.
First, the good news is the change to BMR springs and recommended shocks/struts were an improvement in making the car launch more smoothly. There was none of the squat-then-bounce up and unload I experienced with the Eibach Pro springs and shocks/struts. Thanks.
But I am still getting plenty of wheel spin from the QTP.
Launching at 4000 RPM I get spin for maybe the first 50’. It transitions smoothly to hook, but my 60’ times are 1.95.
Launching at 2000 RPM I get spin for maybe the first 30’. My 60’ times are high 1.80s, a slight improvement, but obviously I’m leaving a lot of power unused.
Launching at just above idle gave me the best 60’ of 1.81 but I really want to find a way to apply more power than that!
One other bit of data, in my burnout after I have warmed and cleaned the tires with the power still on I release the line lock and let the car advance towards the line. As the tires start to grab there is some wheel-hop as the tires start to grab. I don’t feel any wheel-hop on the launch, but I thought I’d mention it. I don’t feel or hear that intense STICK coming forward from the burnout that I’m used to if things are working right--just the hop.
Thanks for any advice you can offer about what to try next.
^ I can help.
Drop the LCA down a hole, raise the shocks settings out back to 10C / 5R, set the struts to 2 clicks, and launch at 4000 again after a 5 second long 2nd gear burnout.
As for the hop on the burnout, is the car one wheel peeling? Do you have our poly bushings? If so, maybe it is time to replace the bushings, or upgrade to bearings. Stick cars and bearings are best friends, especially with 500+HP.
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