Beef is correct on lugging...any application it's a bad idea.
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Paxton or Vmp Tvs
- Thread starter manny231988
- Start date
OMG, you take everything to the extreme.... just to try to prove your point.
OBVIOUSLY a car should downshift. I'm saying that a car factory tuned with more low end power wouldn't downshift as much or quite as soon as the same car with less low end power, dont take my statement too far. 3500rpms is NOT lugging dangerously. Why cant you just admit that the pd blower has better mid range power. You just cant, without saying that it's gonna shrapnel your motor immediately and everyone is wrong if they think otherwise. If PD blowers were SOOO bad, why do they make them and why do a LOT of shops still run them? There is a difference between having an opinion and being opinionated. You are opinionated. If someone doesn't agree with you, you feel the need to tell them they are wrong by using general sayings (ex.-lugging). It seems like everyone else in here has agreed that both setups have their benefits and you have to pick whichever suits you best, except you. I understand you have to try to sell what you sell, but all us PD guys are NOT wrong
I'm out of this thread, it's just the same argument over and over and over. Some people can be open-minded about it and obviously we wont convince others to be.
Before I leave, I will just say this one more time... I am NOT saying TVS is better than centri, I am saying you need to decide which is best for you... and they BOTH have their advantages.
OBVIOUSLY a car should downshift. I'm saying that a car factory tuned with more low end power wouldn't downshift as much or quite as soon as the same car with less low end power, dont take my statement too far. 3500rpms is NOT lugging dangerously. Why cant you just admit that the pd blower has better mid range power. You just cant, without saying that it's gonna shrapnel your motor immediately and everyone is wrong if they think otherwise. If PD blowers were SOOO bad, why do they make them and why do a LOT of shops still run them? There is a difference between having an opinion and being opinionated. You are opinionated. If someone doesn't agree with you, you feel the need to tell them they are wrong by using general sayings (ex.-lugging). It seems like everyone else in here has agreed that both setups have their benefits and you have to pick whichever suits you best, except you. I understand you have to try to sell what you sell, but all us PD guys are NOT wrong
I'm out of this thread, it's just the same argument over and over and over. Some people can be open-minded about it and obviously we wont convince others to be.Before I leave, I will just say this one more time... I am NOT saying TVS is better than centri, I am saying you need to decide which is best for you... and they BOTH have their advantages.
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50-160 My car on 93 vs vortech car with cat deletes, boss IM, exhaust, and CAI. The mighty centri that was supposed to pull me up top got held off.OMG, you take everything to the extreme.... just to try to prove your point.
OBVIOUSLY a car should downshift. I'm saying that a car factory tuned with more low end power wouldn't downshift as much or quite as soon as the same car with less low end power, dont take my statement too far. 3500rpms is NOT lugging dangerously. Why cant you just admit that the pd blower has better mid range power. You just cant, without saying that it's gonna shrapnel your motor immediately and everyone is wrong if they think otherwise. If PD blowers were SOOO bad, why do they make them and why do a LOT of shops still run them? There is a difference between having an opinion and being opinionated. You are opinionated. If someone doesn't agree with you, you feel the need to tell them they are wrong by using general sayings (ex.-lugging). It seems like everyone else in here has agreed that both setups have their benefits and you have to pick whichever suits you best, except you. I understand you have to try to sell what you sell, but all us PD guys are NOT wrong
Before I leave, I will just say this one more time... I am NOT saying TVS is better than centri, I am saying you need to decide which is best for you... and they BOTH have their advantages.
[youtube_browser]QBLLN6hVxY8[/youtube_browser]
Here is some recent data for you all...
These are two street trim cars similar to the way most of you are running.
Blue Line:
Roush TVS car M6 w/ 3.31s, 80mm pulley, 47lb injectors, JLT 123, LTHs no cats
Red Line:
Vortech M6 w/ 3.31s, stock pulley, Boss Intake, 47lb injectors, JLT, LTHs w/ Kooks Green Cats
Not completely identical set-ups but close enough for a good comparison. The bump at the end of the Vortech run is Jim pushing in the clutch before he ended the run-file on the dyno. Both made 12psi peak boost. These are SAE numbers.
See the massive torque gains the TVS has over the Vortech throughout the power curve. At 4k RPMs its nearly a 100WTQ difference. They only meet at the very end of the run...On this race, my money is on the TVS.
These are two street trim cars similar to the way most of you are running.
Blue Line:
Roush TVS car M6 w/ 3.31s, 80mm pulley, 47lb injectors, JLT 123, LTHs no cats
Red Line:
Vortech M6 w/ 3.31s, stock pulley, Boss Intake, 47lb injectors, JLT, LTHs w/ Kooks Green Cats
Not completely identical set-ups but close enough for a good comparison. The bump at the end of the Vortech run is Jim pushing in the clutch before he ended the run-file on the dyno. Both made 12psi peak boost. These are SAE numbers.
See the massive torque gains the TVS has over the Vortech throughout the power curve. At 4k RPMs its nearly a 100WTQ difference. They only meet at the very end of the run...On this race, my money is on the TVS.
If this was the case, on manuals why do they put the skip shift on cars... Not only did the 6 speeds do this 1st -4th which lugs the motor.. ( I know this is not on the 13-14s) but other cars have it also)vettes,camaro etc......
OMG, you take everything to the extreme.... just to try to prove your point.
OBVIOUSLY a car should downshift. I'm saying that a car factory tuned with more low end power wouldn't downshift as much or quite as soon as the same car with less low end power, dont take my statement too far. 3500rpms is NOT lugging dangerously. Why cant you just admit that the pd blower has better mid range power. You just cant, without saying that it's gonna shrapnel your motor immediately and everyone is wrong if they think otherwise. If PD blowers were SOOO bad, why do they make them and why do a LOT of shops still run them? There is a difference between having an opinion and being opinionated. You are opinionated. If someone doesn't agree with you, you feel the need to tell them they are wrong by using general sayings (ex.-lugging). It seems like everyone else in here has agreed that both setups have their benefits and you have to pick whichever suits you best, except you. I understand you have to try to sell what you sell, but all us PD guys are NOT wrong
Before I leave, I will just say this one more time... I am NOT saying TVS is better than centri, I am saying you need to decide which is best for you... and they BOTH have their advantages.
i'm not talking about 3500 rpms, i'm talking about the "street driving / daily driving" you all keep talking about from 1000-2500 rpms
at 1500 rpms, lugging the engine is a bad thing, any auto will downshift, I don't care how much factory hp / blower it came with
and I've had 4 pd blower vehicles in the past. it's not like I haven't owned one
Yeah and the guy had 690 whp , how long was that supposed to last
Read the post mmr post they see twice as many compared to centris
Well when you crank it up like that its not gonna last , if your gonna boost and are staying safe on the motor then TVS is gonna probably be more fun under 600 whp. I mean we have all seen enough guys blow their shit up and im not 100 percent sure on this but I bet most of the guys that had issues blowing their motors were over the 600 whp mark. I thought it was pretty much understood that if you wanna stay safe keep it under 6 and get a good tune and it should last a while
You can't go wrong with either IMO. The selling point for me was I saved close to $2000 over the base TVS and Whipple tuner kits. I would of upgraded to the 2.9 whipple and needed an intake and throttle body to take advantage of the bigger blower, so going with the Paxton made my savings even better. When you add in the way these cars are geared and how high they rev, it made it a no brainer.
Another thing I like about the Paxton is there's no chance I'll ever max it out. I've had a few blowers over the years and when you start getting close to maxxing them out you start to find out heat becomes a big issue and belt slip becomes really annoying. Since the Paxton already comes with a pretty good intercooler I won't have to upgrade it and I hopefully won't ever run into belt slip since I'll never go to a really small pulley. So I get to save money on cooling mods and solving belt slip issues. The Paxton might not be the best blower in everyones opinion, but it is hands down the best bang for the buck.
Another thing I like about the Paxton is there's no chance I'll ever max it out. I've had a few blowers over the years and when you start getting close to maxxing them out you start to find out heat becomes a big issue and belt slip becomes really annoying. Since the Paxton already comes with a pretty good intercooler I won't have to upgrade it and I hopefully won't ever run into belt slip since I'll never go to a really small pulley. So I get to save money on cooling mods and solving belt slip issues. The Paxton might not be the best blower in everyones opinion, but it is hands down the best bang for the buck.
Here is some recent data for you all...
These are two street trim cars similar to the way most of you are running.
Blue Line:
Roush TVS car M6 w/ 3.31s, 80mm pulley, 47lb injectors, JLT 123, LTHs no cats
Red Line:
Vortech M6 w/ 3.31s, stock pulley, Boss Intake, 47lb injectors, JLT, LTHs w/ Kooks Green Cats
Not completely identical set-ups but close enough for a good comparison. The bump at the end of the Vortech run is Jim pushing in the clutch before he ended the run-file on the dyno. Both made 12psi peak boost. These are SAE numbers.
See the massive torque gains the TVS has over the Vortech throughout the power curve. At 4k RPMs its nearly a 100WTQ difference. They only meet at the very end of the run...On this race, my money is on the TVS.
Thank you for posting this. This really clears up 95% of this thread. Roush does make a ton more torque that is for sure.
Well said. It is a good bang for the buck.
It makes a ton more torque but unless if you don't have some good rubber and it actually looks like it starts losing steam on the big end. The paxton continues to pull.....Wonder what the graph looks like at 7500rpm? Anyone can type on a graph to 12psi but where's the actually boost numbers? Hell my paxton dyno was 6900rpm at 7lbs of boost and put down 600rwhp....just saying.
Im sure how many people have to say this...but most who go TVS dont give a shit wrapping the car out to 7500 rpms....I want my power much lower than that and centri's dont offer that.
watch the video I posted on this page. my car in that trim (93 oct and 8.5psi) is prob in the low 600 range and mid 5s tq wise. the car I raced was making about 600 and 470ish tq(7 or so psi). he had the hit, I spun and still had the power to walk around him and hold him off to 160. and that's spinning the cars pretty high into the rpm range (both 3.31 cars) the top end pull or the extra 500 rpms would not have overcome that deficit.
The Paxton kits are awesome don't get me wrong and If Shaun was tuning Paxtons when I bought the Roush I probably would have a Paxton as well. I do not regret having the TVS though. She hauls the mail and having 550+ ftlbs at my command at damn near anytime is a lot of fun!
If I was building more of a strip car, I'd buy the Paxton. It's the only head unit you'll ever need. That being said, this is my fun street driver so I'm getting a TVS. This car will not go over 600hp. I have a 1000rwhp Fox notch going together when I really wanna go fast.
Your right about what your thinking. I have a 3.6" pulley and at 7000 rpm I'm only on seeing 10psi. For that car to see 12psi at 7000rpm it should be well above 500rwtq and alot closer to 700 rwhp. Also the tq curve on that Paxton car is pretty weak.
This whole thread comparing peak boost to peak boost is alot of BS between these 2 superchargers. The only benefit in that is to compare peak numbers. Everybody knows the PD blower is going to make more TQ when the peak boosts are the same. Lets do a comparison between these 2 superchargers when boost (say 5psi) is the same at 5000rpm. I promise the Paxton car will make more tq and more hp and will wax a TVS car. The reason I picked 5000rpm is because peak tq is what will most likely destroy your engine. It's always going to be an unfair/uneven comparison in some way because they are different superchargers.
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