Steigemeier Stage V Torque Plate Issues

[black 10th vert]

This is true but the real question is what are these plates worth? Posi saw no gain. If they are only worth 5-6hp that is probably close to being within the range of error for a dyno. We are talking about 1-2% difference on a 500hp car.
If the deflection could be controlled then yes the welds would not fail but a thicker plate with possible ribbing would need to be used and also welding the plate somewhere midspan like the bypass valve housing

Edit: The welds will still be a structural component but will not have to deal with the inplane rotations caused by the oscillating plate. Think about breaking a wire or paper clip you bend it back and forth a couple of times and it snaps. That is what the plate is doing to the welds when it oscillates

I think we are actually on to some good ideas here - hopefully Steig is watching this thread, even if he doesn't want to participate actively. You are correct, though, it is really the "big question" as to the efficacy of these plates. I mean, I'm sure that Steigs thinking was too reduce turbulance, and make the air directed through the i/c, rather than swirl around in that big chamber, and hitting all of the baffles. What still remains unknown, though, is "how" the boosted air actually behaves at the outlet. Since air always seeks the path of least resistance (like water), it seems to me that it wouldn't spend enough time in that area for the turbulence to be a big factor - especially with the vacuum of the open intake valves drawing the charge as it is being pushed through the rotors. This would explain why most people say that they notice little, to no effect by removing it.

 

[DCTHOM3]

I think we are actually on to some good ideas here - hopefully Steig is watching this thread, even if he doesn't want to participate actively. You are correct, though, it is really the "big question" as to the efficacy of these plates. I mean, I'm sure that Steigs thinking was too reduce turbulance, and make the air directed through the i/c, rather than swirl around in that big chamber, and hitting all of the baffles. What still remains unknown, though, is "how" the boosted air actually behaves at the outlet. Since air always seeks the path of least resistance (like water), it seems to me that it wouldn't spend enough time in that area for the turbulence to be a big factor - especially with the vacuum of the open intake valves drawing the charge as it is being pushed through the rotors. This would explain why most people say that they notice little, to no effect by removing it.

I'm really not sure what the goal of these plates are. Is it to reduce the turbulence as you mentioned or simply reducing the volume of the manifold so that the peak boost hits slightly sooner? Steig doesn't weld the plate solid so it must be to reduce turbulence. I agree with you it seems to me that you would almost have "dead air" in the area near the bypass valve. Not like the air charge travels back to the bypass valve area then through the intercooler? Surely steig has some numbers on what a stage 5 does with and without the torque plate. Because it seem like he does a lot of testing on his ports.

 

[black 10th vert]

I'm really not sure what the goal of these plates are. Is it to reduce the turbulence as you mentioned or simply reducing the volume of the manifold so that the peak boost hits slightly sooner? Steig doesn't weld the plate solid so it must be to reduce turbulence. I agree with you it seems to me that you would almost have "dead air" in the area near the bypass valve. Not like the air charge travels back to the bypass valve area then through the intercooler? Surely steig has some numbers on what a stage 5 does with and without the torque plate. Because it seem like he does a lot of testing on his ports.

At first I thought it was to reduce the volume, but because it isn't a sealed area, that means it has to be for turbulence reasons. What we don't know is whether or not there is actually enough turbulence there to justify it. I really wish Steig. would post some type of testing results to demonstrate the difference on exactly the same car, same blower, etc. with no other changes to the tune, timing, etc. That is really the only true way to evaluate it's efficacy. I'm starting to believe that it was just a "theory" all along, and because the whole package of the stage 5 appeared to make a few more hp than the previous stages, it was deemed to be effective. Either way, I hope this topic doesn't die before we get some real answers here!

 

[JMD0346]

If we were talking 20-30rwhp difference I may could see trying to make it work. Its been shown it doesnt do a whole lot. I say 86 it. Its just not worth the headache.

Quelling the deflection may help quite a bit. You still run into vibration/resonance problems. No matter what you do you cant stop the blower from vibrating/resonating.

It all goes back to the welds. They arent strong enough to handle the conditions inside of a blower. Especially the ones being turned up 20K+ rpms.


Ask yourself this. If a fix is put out there and you get it done are you gonna be comfortable with that? Are you gonna forget about it an just trust that it will work? Or are you gonna always be wondering is my plate cracked again?


Take it off guys. Stieg says call so call. Tell him you dont want the plate and ask him what he intends to do about it. JMO.

 

[DCTHOM3]

If we were talking 20-30rwhp difference I may could see trying to make it work. Its been shown it doesnt do a whole lot. I say 86 it. Its just not worth the headache.

Quelling the deflection may help quite a bit. You still run into vibration/resonance problems. No matter what you do you cant stop the blower from vibrating/resonating.

It all goes back to the welds. They arent strong enough to handle the conditions inside of a blower. Especially the ones being turned up 20K+ rpms.


Ask yourself this. If a fix is put out there and you get it done are you gonna be comfortable with that? Are you gonna forget about it an just trust that it will work? Or are you gonna always be wondering is my plate cracked again?


Take it off guys. Stieg says call so call. Tell him you dont want the plate and ask him what he intends to do about it. JMO.

I was just discussing the problem and whether the plates need to be used. Personally if I had a stage 5 port I would just cut my loses and the plate off for piece of mind. What's kinda funny is how long some of these ports have been running around with cracked welds and no "major" problems Just hope people that have this issue will take care of it. So I'm in agreement on this one

 

[SID297]

I've noticed many SVTP members have this problem.

I wonder how Steg will go about handling this.

They've stated that if you have a problem that you can send the blower to them and they'll fix it as well as pay for shipping both ways.

I just got a warning here from LL for posting these basic questions in Steig's stick threads (which were subsequently deleted). I apologized in a return pm to LL, who said that I was "just trying to start crap". Just so everyone knows, I am not, nor have ever been a troublemaker here, but this is an issue that needs to be dealt with, and I feel like I really can't say anything more on this subject without being banned here.:rollseyes I honestly thought that all of the rants over on modfords were bullshit, and coming from people that were actual troublemakers anyway, now I see that you are fine here, as long as you don't publicly voice a strong opinion about the vendors here. This is not a problem for me, per say, because I understand that this is a business too, and the vendors pay the bills, but come on? At what point do the moderators speak to the said vendors, and warn them about not stepping up to the plate? I know that Steig says to call in, and I've heard that they have actually re-worked many of these blowers already, which is awesome. The problem that I have is that he (Steig) won't address this to the group as whole, even though the problem is not isolated. As someone else pointed out, it is a big pain in the ass to have each and every person have to call in individually, just to tell him the same exact thing! I would think that would be a big problem for them as well, just having to deal with all of the phone calls from those who have a documented issue, as well as those who haven't pulled the blower yet, but are afraid the issue will affect them also.

LL, if you read this, please know that my posts in this thread, and elsewhere are not to start crap - I just want to make sure that this doesn't just get swept under the rug! For what it's worth, I do have a dog in this fight too, as I have a beautifully polished stage 5 sitting on top of my engine right now, that it is absolutely killing me to think about taking back off again! It's not that it is a hard job, but when you are very busy, as a lot of us are with work, family, etc., there isn't always a lot of time to devote to having to re-do stuff that should be done already. This what really makes me angry! I had my car apart all of last season, because I was honestly too busy to finish it, and with the economy as it is, I was not wanting to turn any jobs away for fear that it would all dry up. I'm sure I'm not the only one in this situation, either.

Sorry for the long post!
Brian

I haven't read what you posted, but if you were trying to illicit a response to this thread by posting in that one you shouldn't have. That thread is not the place for it. Many times in the past there have been members who would follow vendors (many different ones over the years) around and post somethingin a vendor's thread basically to try to ruin a sale or generally interrupt the vendor trying to do legitimate business. Even if that's not what you intended to do sometimes that's the way things appear to the mods. That's why LL probably thought you were just trying to cause trouble. We've seen it happen a lot before. It was nothing personal against you.

In most situations where a tough decision needs to be made, there's 2 sides of the story. Of course. But its also amazing to me how NO members of this 'community' are backing Steig.'s efforts. Only Moderators. And NO Moderators are backing the side of the customer (at least PUBLICLY WHERE IT COUNTS). Only members.

My blowers coming off. And going to Posi.

Are you kidding? Did you miss the part where I told Dwight to start this thread. Or tired to help figure out what was causing the failure? Perhaps you should re-read the thread. If the SVTP staff was not on the side of the customer you would never see threads like this. There are forums out there that delete threads about vendors committing all out frauds against their customers, and help cover up a vendor's actions that resulted in members not being able to race at certain tracks. SVTP is not in that camp. If a member has a problem with a vendor they can post about it as long as they are truthful and post factual information without undue emotional embellishments or bashing. It's as simple as that.

 

[99riocobra]

Take it off guys. Stieg says call so call. Tell him you dont want the plate and ask him what he intends to do about it. JMO.

couldn't agree more. the stage 5 numbers are basically the same as the stage 4, which had no plate obviously. we need to know what Stieg says so someone with a stage 5 needs to call!

 

[SID297]

This is true but the real question is what are these plates worth? Posi saw no gain. If they are only worth 5-6hp that is probably close to being within the range of error for a dyno. We are talking about 1-2% difference on a 500hp car.
If the deflection could be controlled then yes the welds would not fail but a thicker plate with possible ribbing would need to be used and also welding the plate somewhere midspan like the bypass valve housing

My understanding is that it helps bring the power on quicker. It may not help a lot on the top end, but it makes the care feel peppier.

At first I thought it was to reduce the volume, but because it isn't a sealed area, that means it has to be for turbulence reasons. What we don't know is whether or not there is actually enough turbulence there to justify it. I really wish Steig. would post some type of testing results to demonstrate the difference on exactly the same car, same blower, etc. with no other changes to the tune, timing, etc. That is really the only true way to evaluate it's efficacy. I'm starting to believe that it was just a "theory" all along, and because the whole package of the stage 5 appeared to make a few more hp than the previous stages, it was deemed to be effective. Either way, I hope this topic doesn't die before we get some real answers here!

I believe it is intended to reduce both volume and turbulence (basically direct the airflow more directly through the intercooler.


I talked to Bob earlier today and sent him a list of what I believe are the concerns that most people have. Some of them basically repeat things he has already covered, but I think they should be stated again. He said he'd work on a response and post it up this evening.

 

[iBiTe03]

Like stated previously in this thread multiple times, WHAT ABOUT THE PEOPLE THAT ARE NOT ON ANY FORUMS, are they getting contacted somehow?

 

[dynobobstieg]

The TQ plate is a device that increases Air Charge Speed by Reducing volume between the discharge and Intercooler.

We have the pictures of our current design.
Stage 5 - Supercharger Q&A, Moderated by Dyno Bob
Our Stage 4 rotor timing is now equivalent to the Stage 5, so if you do not want a TQ plate go with our Stage 4 Port.

The plate thickness increased to .125 T6061 material 5356 Rod material . The initial plate thickness was increased to better deal with the harmonics of increased rotor speeds.

The Front tack in question holds the plate in place while finished welds are performed.
If you would like to have your plate removed send the unit in, if it is under warranty we will pay shipping. N/C to remove.

Your blower number is stamped below the front drive
Call for further information, pm or email us:

Thank you,
Robert Stiegemeier
StiegeSplash
636-949-2275

 

[IronTerp]

Folks, it's a "torque" plate. I believe it was installed to assist in torque production throughout the RPM. When the Stage III came out, peak horsepower inprovements where excellent (40-45 RWHP usually), but torque numbers either remained constant or even went down slightly in some cases. To my understanding, the Stage IV was an attempt to remedy this torque production scenario. As we've discussed, it has been stated that the Stage V was an attempt to produce higher horsepower with less boost (upper pulley only = 500 RWHP). Obviously, when you run less boost, your torque values are going to suffer as well. I'm "assuming" that the torque plate on the Stage V was an attempt to maximize torque development in light of this situation, and probably has minimal affect on horsepower development.

The turbulance theory certainly makes sense to me. Lot of nooks and cranies for air to be deflected in that part of the underside of the blower. However, most of us have the boost bypass valve either disconnected manually or turned off in our tunes, so can't see that as being as much of an issue.

 

[dynobobstieg]

Im pretty sure someone posted a few pages back that they called and spoke to them. so now who is lying...again here we go...

No he emailed us.
Since then we have got 1 more email and 1 phone call.
All 3 were satisfied with our solution.
Thank you

Stiegemeier
StiegeSplash
636-949-2275

 

[black 10th vert]

My understanding is that it helps bring the power on quicker. It may not help a lot on the top end, but it makes the care feel peppier.



I believe it is intended to reduce both volume and turbulence (basically direct the airflow more directly through the intercooler.


I talked to Bob earlier today and sent him a list of what I believe are the concerns that most people have. Some of them basically repeat things he has already covered, but I think they should be stated again. He said he'd work on a response and post it up this evening.

Thank you for contacting him, Sid! That was what I was hoping would end up happening, because he is more likely to do what you suggest as the forum owner/admin, than he is to listen to a single customer (or group of bitching people!). I would also like to apologize for posting in those sticky threads. You are right, I wasn't trying to intentionally cause trouble, just trying to elicit "some" form of response to our questions. I do understand now that you explained the situation better, why LL took it that way. :beer:

Like stated previously in this thread multiple times, WHAT ABOUT THE PEOPLE THAT ARE NOT ON ANY FORUMS, are they getting contacted somehow?

This is a very valid point, but unfortunately, with the fickle nature that us car guys have when modding, these blowers change hands frequently (often without even being installed), as newer, better stuff hits the market. It would be all but impossible for Bob to reach the customers directly. The only way to do it, is to make sticky type threads on various enthusiast sites like this one, where he does business/advertises.

 

[SID297]

Guys, that seems like a fair offer to me for those that want the plate removed even if the welds haven't cracked. Stieg has shown that if the welds do indeed crack that they will repair it even when it's out of warranty (and pay for shipping to boot). I'm sure if you have a cracked one out of warranty and want it removed they'd do that too. If you want to buy a blower without the plate you can order that way. Seems like a good deal all the way around.

 

[black 10th vert]

Guys, that seems like a fair offer to me for those that want the plate removed even if the welds haven't cracked. Stieg has shown that if the welds do indeed crack that they will repair it even when it's out of warranty (and pay for shipping to boot). I'm sure if you have a cracked one out of warranty and want it removed they'd do that too. If you want to buy a blower without the plate you can order that way. Seems like a good deal all the way around.

Absolutely, however, some have mentioned that even if he does pay to ship back, and forth, does the re-weld, etc. Are we going to be able to trust that it isn't cracking again. I mean, it's not like a COP cover, or some other bolt-on that is easily pulled to check on frequently. Also, there is the issue of all the added labor, and downtime for people's cars because of this. I wonder if that will be addressed at all? Did you mention that in the list of concerns that you sent him?

 

[SID297]

Thank you for contacting him, Sid! That was what I was hoping would end up happening, because he is more likely to do what you suggest as the forum owner/admin, than he is to listen to a single customer (or group of bitching people!). I would also like to apologize for posting in those sticky threads. You are right, I wasn't trying to intentionally cause trouble, just trying to elicit "some" form of response to our questions. I do understand now that you explained the situation better, why LL took it that way. :beer:



This is a very valid point, but unfortunately, with the fickle nature that us car guys have when modding, these blowers change hands frequently (often without even being installed), as newer, better stuff hits the market. It would be all but impossible for Bob to reach the customers directly. The only way to do it, is to make sticky type threads on various enthusiast sites like this one, where he does business/advertises.

I really didn't make any suggestions about how to handle situation (other than one I'll talk about later). I just made a list of the questions that seem to be getting posted over and over again. I think Bob's response answered them pretty well. Bob is a smart guy and really knows these superchargers. He wouldn't have been able to build a business that is as successful as his is without producing a good product and standing behind his work when there's a problem.

The only suggestion I made is that Stieg try to contact former customers who may have a Stage V that could develop a problem and let them know that they are willing to help them. That's as far as went. I know it'll be impossible to notify everyone due to blowers changing hands over the years, but it won't hurt to try.

 

[HISSMAN]

Absolutely, however, some have mentioned that even if he does pay to ship back, and forth, does the re-weld, etc. Are we going to be able to trust that it isn't cracking again. I mean, it's not like a COP cover, or some other bolt-on that is easily pulled to check on frequently. Also, there is the issue of all the added labor, and downtime for people's cars because of this. I wonder if that will be addressed at all? Did you mention that in the list of concerns that you sent him?

It is a mod, and with a mod comes risks. I really don't see a need for him to do anything concerning labor or downtime. The situation sucks for those that have the Tq plate, and I am sure for Stieg too. He didn't do this with the idea of it breaking, and I am sure that it was tested as well as anything can be tested. Especially for the small cost to the customer. He is going to fix those that need to be fixed, and remove those that need to be removed, which is a lot more than I expect from most companies in the world today, especially the small guys. I believe the issue has been addressed, and as to the why or how, well that will hopefully be solved one day.

-Jeff

 

[SID297]

Absolutely, however, some have mentioned that even if he does pay to ship back, and forth, does the re-weld, etc. Are we going to be able to trust that it isn't cracking again. I mean, it's not like a COP cover, or some other bolt-on that is easily pulled to check on frequently. Also, there is the issue of all the added labor, and downtime for people's cars because of this. I wonder if that will be addressed at all? Did you mention that in the list of concerns that you sent him?

For those that are concerned about the plate they can have it removed. I didn't ask about the added labor or down time because I know in this business that is not something that shops are willing to cover unless they did the install work in the first place and are going to be doing the removal. If Bob did the install on a car and the plate broke (you should be able to hear it if it's bad enough) I would expect that he would cover the removal and reinstall by doing it himself.

 

[black 10th vert]

For those that are concerned about the plate they can have it removed. I didn't ask about the added labor or down time because I know in this business that is not something that shops are willing to cover unless they did the install work in the first place and are going to be doing the removal. If Bob did the install on a car and the plate broke (you should be able to hear it if it's bad enough) I would expect that he would cover the removal and reinstall by doing it himself.

yeah, I guess that makes sense, it just really sucks for guys that don't do their own wrenching, and have to pay again for the r&r - or, for those like myself, who just don't have the time to deal with this. In these cases, it certainly does diminish ANY cost advantage at all over going TS, whis is always a selling point for going with ported.

 

[HISSMAN]

yeah, I guess that makes sense, it just really sucks for guys that don't do their own wrenching, and have to pay again for the r&r - or, for those like myself, who just don't have the time to deal with this. In these cases, it certainly does diminish ANY cost advantage at all over going TS, whis is always a selling point for going with ported.

Talk to some of the guys that bought DSS half shafts which broke and don't have the ability or know-how to do their own wrenching. Ouch!