Steigemeier Stage V Torque Plate Issues

[lemosley01]

Then the vendor should just shut up and not say anything, as opposed to 'trust me, it will work this time'.

Why should we believe that? Most of us are adults and 'because I said so' isn't good enough, especially when many of the adults involved in this discussion are car guys with years of experience, welders, actual metallurgists, or engineers.

If you want to do business using the Internet, then you had better be prepared to use it as your communication medium. There aren't any Catch-22s - that's a copout.

Posters say 'all due respect' to convey that the post is not an attack on YOU because written media doesn't convey tone and expression that you get with a talk.

If you can't grow a thicker skin, I'd recommend staying off the interwebz.

 

[black 10th vert]

what this thread is about has evolved over time... the last couple pages seems to be more about why it is in stegs interest to discuss how his new design for the stage V addresses the weld cracking issue. I had made a poor attempt to provide a contrary opinion on why stegs approach on this forum makes some sense. I want to try and clarify...

first, the internet does allow one to talk to many, but it is not a level playing field. With some exceptions everyone operates with anonymity, EXCEPT the vendors - steg is just that, steg. there are no requirements (knowledge, expertise, experience) to post and the opinions, including mine, are like __________ (you know the saying). Also, this is one of many forums that cover modular motors to include 03-04 cobras (it is my favorite one though, shameless plug).

second, from a metalurgy perspective, the welding of these two dissimilar metals is not ideal and is prone to cracking - no argument here. though reasonable folks can disagree as to the utility of the "torque plate," it is part of the stage V design and steg posts the results, the design seems to prduce some results. I think reasonable folks can also disagree if this part of the design, the plate, is "doomed" to failure due to its application.

I think (again my opinion) that from a small business perspective this is a catch 22 for steg. because of the metalurgy issues, steg's answer will have to come down to "yes such welds are prone to cracking, we use a thicker plate and weld the plate differently now (perhaps some other things as well, no subsequent failures have occured, we think the design is sufficent for the application." There is no miracle that steg can perform here that fixes the metalurgy involved, it comes down to is his design sufficient for the application involved, which really can only be empirically determined (run it till it breaks) and results in a simple statement - no subsequent failures have occured on the new design, not very satisfying for folks hungry for technical details. on the flip side, everyone will have an opinion on such an answer, some informed, some not and I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that (1st ammendment and all), but if I own a small business and I look at this and other forums with similar threads, I have to think about how much time (resources) I'm willing to spend hammering away on different forums trying to put my message out and what the return on that investment will be or if it will even make a difference. In that calculus I would have to be thinking about how many customers I might be loosing or gaining by investing that time, my efforts are dilluted through a forum because I am addressing potential customers as well as those with no intention of ever buying my product. now somebody calls me, with some specific questions, that person is much closer to being a customer in that they have jumped a higher hurdle (a phone call with a name and phone number during normal business hours verus an anonymous post at any time of day), I will answer his questions and concerns, discuss his power goals, and recommend a solution.

so to me a reasonable strategy would be to take stegs approach - the problem is solved and I'll take care of you if you if you have any problems, my record for customer service speaks for itself.

apologize for the long post. in general a vendor can do very well here to explain an issue, but in this specific case because of the underlying technical issues and the solution, I think steg's tack is not wrong, and is sufficient for me. if after all of this thread and others, you are still deciding on a ported blower, just call and talk to steg, posi, or others before you decide. this forum and others are just one tool, not the only one, in making this decision.

utlimately time will tell. will the new design ultimately experience some failures - perhaps. for me, steg says he has fixed the problem and if for some reason it does fail then he has told me he will stand behind his product. I combine that with his customer service reputation and I was sold. others may not be so convinced...

still think that many folks make inappropriate remarks or on the one hand say "hey, nothing personal," "don't mean to insult" but then do just that and then apologize afterwards. nothing prevents you from doing so, nothing prevents me from calling you out on it.

:xpl:

now i feel better - lol

i'm out

I think you have a very reasonable perspective on this whole debacle. I think what makes it still difficult for most to swallow, though, is the labor/costs associated with repeated attempts at getting this right. Sure Steig., will stand behind them, and keep re-welding them - and maybe even cover shipping, but we as the end users are still left with the removal/install, or any additional costs over and above that. It is especially bad for those that need to pay a shop to keep doing the work. I'm not sure what the solution is here, but it is definitely part of the problem nonetheless!

 

[lemosley01]

Well, most parts are warranteed for 'parts only' - usually labor is not included. I believe Steigemeier has said he would do the labor free of charge if you brought the car to him; I think that is fair.

Most of his customers don't live near by so that is pretty much out of the question, for them, but I don't see him doing anything (warranty-wise) that isn't generally accepted. If you buy a part from Ford and pay someone to install it, then Ford will only warranty the part itself; you're on the hook for removal/reinstallation labor.

But you bring up a good point, and one of the reasons why people would like to know what the solution is: Cost to customer in cash and downtime.

For those guys that can't or won't do their own work, there is the issue of putting on a 'fixed part' at their cost, and having it potentially break again, costing them more money to pull/reinstall a 're-fixed again' part.

For those that do their own work, the prospect of spending hours removing and reinstalling is a bit of a downer.

And then there is the downtime of the car.

I wouldn't want to go through this for a part I wasn't sure I would have to take off again in a year.

Unfortunately, there is no way to have any informed opinion because the answer is 'we fixed it but we aren't going to tell why it broke to being with and how we've changed the process to ensure it won't break again'.

 

[IronTerp]

Bubblehead93, although we're almost at the point in this thread that constructive comments, especially on the technical aspects of this issue, appear to be drying up and some closure is probably in order (literally...), I found your post interesting. Steigemeier is in the business of "selling" ported blowers and as such, they need to offer a good product and they also need to "sell" that product to their potential customer base. By being vendors here, they have obviously made the committment to at least reach out to the customer base. Problem is, the quality of their product (ie: Stage V) is being questioned and thus there is now an issue of how "good" is their product. AND, their reaction to this issue has made it extremely difficult to "sell" their product. As a result, a viable competitor has stepped into the market at an excellent time and is reaping the benefits at the expense of Steigemeier. True market economic forces at work.....

So like you, many of us are actually trying to help Steigemeier here, not bash him. But it's next to impossible to make any progress here with the damage control philosophy that they are ascribing to. On three seperate occasions within a 4 month period, my Stage IV setup pulled 537, 541, and 539 STD respectively on three reputable Dynojets. And the Eaton 10 Second List is dominated by Steigemeier ported blowers. But it's looking more and more like a changing of the guard is taking place as more and more unported Eatons are ending up in Kentucky. And this is occuring for two reasons: 1) Brian is getting it done and putting out a "good" product, and 2) Steigemeier's handling of the Stage V issue has not convinced the majority of the customer base of the quality of his product. I sincerely wish it weren't so but this appears to be the fact of the issue......

Oh and Bubblehead93, when you posted: "I dispair at your incivility" in Post #295, I almost fell out of my chair laughing......THAT my friend, is a classic!

 

[bubblehead93]

Then the vendor should just shut up and not say anything, as opposed to 'trust me, it will work this time'.

Why should we believe that? Most of us are adults and 'because I said so' isn't good enough, especially when many of the adults involved in this discussion are car guys with years of experience, welders, actual metallurgists, or engineers.

If you want to do business using the Internet, then you had better be prepared to use it as your communication medium. There aren't any Catch-22s - that's a copout.

Posters say 'all due respect' to convey that the post is not an attack on YOU because written media doesn't convey tone and expression that you get with a talk.

If you can't grow a thicker skin, I'd recommend staying off the interwebz.

shipmate,

everything is a catch-22, it's not a copout, it is reality - as a vendor participation in one of these forums is a catch-22, on the one hand it is inexpensive advertising to a very targeted audience, on the other hand it creates a demand for accountability that in many lines of business would be considered an unreasonable expectation. this is not about so much using the internet as part of your business, but the pieces you choose to use - many businesses use e-commerce without participating in independent forums, i find this whole thing very interesting from that perspective.

to be fair, i think steg has said a little more than trust me it will be different this time if read in context of previous posts in the thread, maybe not much more, but enough that it was significant to me. i think reasonable folks can agree to disagree on this point though.

with respect to tone and expression, i think you can convey tone and expression without being negative and would cite your comments with regard to thicker skin and staying off the "interweb" as a excellent example of tone and expression that does not add any value.

feel pretty strongly about the really negative tone folks take in many of their posts for whatever their reason, don't think it has a place in a "community."

my purpose in my previous post was not to say anyone was wrong per say, but rather to provide a perspective I was not seeing anyone else provide as to why steg might not be responding in the thread to the extent folks desired.

:shrug:

 

[bubblehead93]

i'm just using this thread to pad my post count - one step closer to SVT God - lol.

 

[IronTerp]

feel pretty strongly about the really negative tone folks take in many of their posts for whatever their reason, don't think it has a place in a "community."

The "negative" tone is much more a function of furstration, then a lack of community. And the sheer volume of these type of posts is a direct reflection of the level of frustration. It's a shame.

 

[bubblehead93]

ironterp,

agree that steg will take a hit, the question that is interesting from the "what if" perspective is if any other strategy for responding to the issue on this or other forums would make that hit either bigger or smaller given the underlying technical issues and how much effort (time at a keyboard punching away on it when I should be working, am I talking about the vendor or myself) on the part of the vendor it would require.

I have another stock blower which I think I will send to posi to have ported after I drill and tap all the intercooler bolts for M6 bolts. i'm not sure if i'll swap one for the other but it would be fun, to back to back them on the same dyno, posi race port vs steg stage V all other things being equal.

on a completely different note, my IW damper shows up today, so I can finish assembling the front of my motor. can't wait to get home and get the kids to bed.

 

[lemosley01]

shipmate,

everything is a catch-22, it's not a copout, it is reality - as a vendor participation in one of these forums is a catch-22, on the one hand it is inexpensive advertising to a very targeted audience, on the other hand it creates a demand for accountability that in many lines of business would be considered an unreasonable expectation. this is not about so much using the internet as part of your business, but the pieces you choose to use - many businesses use e-commerce without participating in independent forums, i find this whole thing very interesting from that perspective.

It is interesting, but it isn't 'new'. Vendor participation in forums has been going on for a long time now, and there have been enough of these types of incidences that you'd think the lesson would be learned: if you are going to use the forum, be prepared to use it not just for selling but for damage control.

to be fair, i think steg has said a little more than trust me it will be different this time if read in context of previous posts in the thread, maybe not much more, but enough that it was significant to me. i think reasonable folks can agree to disagree on this point though.

I haven't seen where he has said anything more than 'send us the broken blower and we'll fix it; the new design doesn't have any issues'. Problem is, he isn't specifying what was done nor any data - that in my eyes (and apparently a number of other people's eyes) amounts to nothing more than 'trust me'.

If I've missed that, please link it for me.

with respect to tone and expression, i think you can convey tone and expression without being negative and would cite your comments with regard to thicker skin and staying off the "interweb" as a excellent example of tone and expression that does not add any value.

And neither does coming into a thread and point it out. Fair enough?

This is the Internet and life in general.

 

[dynobobstieg]

The ONLY TQ plate structural weld in question is the one from supercarkiller, and there is a lot going on behind the scene with that.
We stand BEHIND our Products and services. We have learned NOT to give out too much information on what we do and how we do it the HARD way!


Stiegemeier:burnout:
636-949-2275
StiegeSplash

 

[black 10th vert]

It is interesting, but it isn't 'new'. Vendor participation in forums has been going on for a long time now, and there have been enough of these types of incidences that you'd think the lesson would be learned: if you are going to use the forum, be prepared to use it not just for selling but for damage control.



I haven't seen where he has said anything more than 'send us the broken blower and we'll fix it; the new design doesn't have any issues'. Problem is, he isn't specifying what was done nor any data - that in my eyes (and apparently a number of other people's eyes) amounts to nothing more than 'trust me'.

If I've missed that, please link it for me.



And neither does coming into a thread and point it out. Fair enough?

This is the Internet and life in general.

This is the biggest issue for most everyone here, at least from my interpretation. When he was asked in a very direct manner to explain "why" this new process was better, or at least hold up for it's given purpose - he said something about not giving away trade secrets! First of all, that just doesn't wash with me. I have worked as both a mechanical engineer, and as a machinist/fabricator, so I'm not buying the trade secret bs! Obviously his airflow studies might be proprietary, but we only care about the actual method of attachment - in this case, the welding of two dissimilar materials. Where does the trade secret come into play?:??:

 

[03slobra2]

"So like you, many of us are actually trying to help Steigemeier here, not bash him. But it's next to impossible to make any progress here with the damage control philosophy that they are ascribing to. On three seperate occasions within a 4 month period, my Stage IV setup pulled 537, 541, and 539 STD respectively on three reputable Dynojets. And the Eaton 10 Second List is dominated by Steigemeier ported blowers. But it's looking more and more like a changing of the guard is taking place as more and more unported Eatons are ending up in Kentucky. And this is occuring for two reasons: 1) Brian is getting it done and putting out a "good" product, and 2) Steigemeier's handling of the Stage V issue has not convinced the majority of the customer base of the quality of his product. I sincerely wish it weren't so but this appears to be the fact of the issue......"

This could not have been stated any better. The one HUGE difference between Steig and Brian, is Brian was just a cobra guy, not a business guy. He wasn't making money hand over fist, and was giving a service and a option to a lot of us for a cheaper price. It just so happened that when people talk to him on the phone he is very personable, and people like him. His ports put out solid numbers, and everyone is happy.

Steig. can be back in that situation, he is just going to have to give people piece of mind with giving out information on how the issue is and has been resolved.

 

[IronTerp]

Steig. can be back in that situation, he is just going to have to give people piece of mind with giving out information on how the issue is and has been resolved.

Agree......And IMO this information should be available on SVTPerformance.com, the largest Terminator site in existence and the home to literally thousands of potential ported Eaton customers. :beer:

 

[dynobobstieg]

WE STAND BEHIND OUR WORKMANSHIP FOR LIFE AND YES OUR WELDING PROCESS IS PART OF OUR WORKMANSHIP.

Respectfully, We are a business not a technical school.

Stiegemeier
636-949-2275
StiegeSplash

Call anytime with your questions or concerns.
(Other sales, promotions, and technical information can be found on our Web site.)
Stiegemeier Porting Services, LLC - Supercharger Rebuild and Repair

Thank You.

 

[rotor_powerd]

This is the equivalent of a small scale Toyota telling everyone with a sticky gas pedal to just call into HQ and "We'll fix it, trust us. We got this."

No, when you sell a product, and "STAND BEHIND YOUR WORKMANSHIP," you disclose all information regarding any defects and exactly what you do during a "recall" to resolve the issue. A quick "We'll fix it" with no explanation does nothing for people who work hard to support their hobby, which is these cars. I don't know about everyone else, but it's not everyday I come across $500 to drop on porting a supercharger, and if I were to decide to do that, I would want to know with 100% certainty that it wasn't going to come apart and potentially eat itself alive, drop chunks of metal into my $5000 engine, bust my intercooler, or fail in anyway.

Bottom line, people want to know what causes the problem, and what exactly is done to rectify it with 100% proof that it will not fail the second time around. Unfortunately (Fortunately for the Terminator community), all of that work has been left up to a few posters here who are experts in the field, and no information provided by the vendor "Standing behind their workmanship." If anyone has any question as to why people are frustrated with this issue, there's your answer.

 

[BADASS03SVT]

I have another stock blower which I think I will send to posi to have ported after I drill and tap all the intercooler bolts for M6 bolts. i'm not sure if i'll swap one for the other but it would be fun, to back to back them on the same dyno, posi race port vs steg stage V all other things being equal.

its been done, sort of (Stage 4 and then re-ported) and there were gains shown, but of course it was criticized.

 

[03slobra2]

WE STAND BEHIND OUR WORKMANSHIP FOR LIFE AND YES OUR WELDING PROCESS IS PART OF OUR WORKMANSHIP.

Respectfully, We are a business not a technical school.

Stiegemeier
636-949-2275
StiegeSplash

Call anytime with your questions or concerns.
(Other sales, promotions, and technical information can be found on our Web site.)
Stiegemeier Porting Services, LLC - Supercharger Rebuild and Repair

Thank You.

Stieg, I don't know you from Adam, but at some point you have to stop the bleeding. I know running a "business" you cannot satisfy everyone. It just won't happen, but I do know how to limit the ones that could be mad by taking care of them via "buddy' discount, or "this is what happened, and here is what I am doing for you... because I like you" discount. (doesn't have to be money savings, but you get the idea)

You can never underestimate the power of "word of mouth". Tell people you have gone a different direction on the welding, tell them you went with a bigger plate... you don't have to give a freaking slide show on "how to weld a plate to the bottom of your blower!". No one is asking for that. They just want to know how you fixed it, if there is a different technique you used or different materials. That's it!!!

In my business, I live on word of mouth, and I know this in my many many years of direct sales. "Good news barely gets across the street. Bad news travels like wild fire!"

Sorry if I offended you Steig, but it is what it is...

 

[dynobobstieg]

Stieg, I don't know you from Adam, but at some point you have to stop the bleeding. I know running a "business" you cannot satisfy everyone. It just won't happen, but I do know how to limit the ones that could be mad by taking care of them via "buddy' discount, or "this is what happened, and here is what I am doing for you... because I like you" discount. (doesn't have to be money savings, but you get the idea)

You can never underestimate the power of "word of mouth". Tell people you have gone a different direction on the welding, tell them you went with a bigger plate... you don't have to give a freaking slide show on "how to weld a plate to the bottom of your blower!". No one is asking for that. They just want to know how you fixed it, if there is a different technique you used or different materials. That's it!!!

In my business, I live on word of mouth, and I know this in my many many years of direct sales. "Good news barely gets across the street. Bad news travels like wild fire!"

Sorry if I offended you Steig, but it is what it is...

This has been explained and we have shown pictures. No offense taken.
Stiegemeier
StiegeSplash
636-949-2275