Steigemeier Stage V Torque Plate Issues

[CobraBob]

As far as who covers the cost of removing the blower and re-installing it if the weld is cracked, consider what would happen if you installed a Whipple blower and a week later found it to be defective. Whipple isn't going to pay to have it removed for repair. The customer would have to send it back for repair or replacement. And the customer would also have to pay for the re-installation of the repaired/new blower. Most companies state this in their warranties. They don't want to be liable for related damages or time lost. I know that sucks for those who either don't have the money/time to pull the blower and re-install it but that's the way most companies that I am aware of handle things such as this.

 

[10thredvert]

However, most of us have the boost bypass valve either disconnected manually or turned off in our tunes, so can't see that as being as much of an issue.

The bypass valve is not turned off in your tune, the bypass solenoid is turned off. When the bypass solenoid is manually bypassed you are simply unplugging the vacuum line to the solenoid and run directly to the bypass valve. Ford put the solenoid in so that it could control an over boost situation via the PCM.

People, please do not completely disconnect or weld a plate all the way around the bypass valve. You will have a lot of driveability problems (surging, rough idle, etc.) and you could damage the supercharger. There are several purposes for the bypass valve. If at WOT you suddenly take your foot off the gas it will bleed off the excess boost trapped below the supercharger and will equalize the pressure above and below the supercharger. At idle, the bypass valve allows air to completely bypass the rotors and the engine acts like a naturally aspirated (NA) engine (with out the valve, in this scenario, the engine would surge up and down as boost would build up between the supercharger and the intake valves, and then suddenly equalize itself with a fluttering of the throttle blade) (this is the BB Chevy with an 8-71 scenario I mentioned a few posts up). At part throttle vacuum is reduced from idle and the valve begins to close not costing you efficiency by having to pass through the rotors. Thats why our cars get pretty decent gas mileage. The engine is essentially acting like it is NA until there is 0" Hg of vacuum. At this point (0" Hg) the bypass valve is completely closed and the supercharger can begin making boost. This is when you start to hear the whine of the supercharger.

All forced induction system (except the afore mentioned 8-71) have a bypass valve of some kind. In Turbo and Centrifugal superchargers they are called blow-off valves.

 

[mack83]

This thread is 10 pages long and my wife is soon going to stab me from the constant reading that I've been doing here :| however, bob stepped up and said of you had concerns about the plate that he would remove it and pay for shipping. That's a fair response. As far as the time and labour of doing it yourself, there is no real way around that. I don't have a steggy ported eaton so I'm on no ones side here, just saying that it seems like a decent way of handling peoples concerns. Atleast he has responded openly about the "repair" and is willing to work with any of the customers that do have concerns. Short of tar and feathering him I don't think there's a whole lot more to gripe about?

 

[IronTerp]

The TQ plate is a device that increases Air Charge Speed by Reducing volume between the discharge and Intercooler.

We have the pictures of our current design.
Stage 5 - Supercharger Q&A, Moderated by Dyno Bob
Our Stage 4 rotor timing is now equivalent to the Stage 5, so if you do not want a TQ plate go with our Stage 4 Port.

The plate thickness increased to .125 T6061 material 5356 Rod material . The initial plate thickness was increased to better deal with the harmonics of increased rotor speeds.

The Front tack in question holds the plate in place while finished welds are performed.
If you would like to have your plate removed send the unit in, if it is under warranty we will pay shipping. N/C to remove.

Bob, thanks for the information. and for offering a fair solution to this situation. :beer:

If a Stage V owner has the early edition plate/weld and the blower is no longer under warranty, would you be willing to absorb the cost of upgrading the plate to your existing system?

 

[SID297]

Bob, thanks for the information. and for offering a fair solution to this situation. :beer:

If a Stage V owner has the early edition plate/weld and the blower is no longer under warranty, would you be willing to absorb the cost of upgrading the plate to your existing system?

I'd say that chances are if someone has the early version with just the tack weld that weld is already broken. I'm pretty sure Bob is upgrading all those to the latest design (thicker plate and more welding) if they're sent in (or just removing it if the buyer wants it removed), and he was paying for shipping.

 

[dynobobstieg]

Bob, thanks for the information. and for offering a fair solution to this situation. :beer:

If a Stage V owner has the early edition plate/weld and the blower is no longer under warranty, would you be willing to absorb the cost of upgrading the plate to your existing system?

This goes either way remove or replace with new one.
If you would like to have your plate removed send the unit in, if it is under warranty we will pay shipping. N/C to remove. or replace.

Thank you
Stiegemeier
StiegeSplash
636-949-2275

 

[SID297]

This goes either way remove or replace with new one.
If you would like to have your plate removed send the unit in, if it is under warranty we will pay shipping. N/C to remove. or replace.

Thank you
Stiegemeier
StiegeSplash
636-949-2275

Just to clarify things, are you paying for shipping for those who are out of warranty but have a plate that has failed (basically the deal you offered Billy)?

 

[black 10th vert]

This goes either way remove or replace with new one.
If you would like to have your plate removed send the unit in, if it is under warranty we will pay shipping. N/C to remove. or replace.

Thank you
Stiegemeier
StiegeSplash
636-949-2275

I think Bob made a key point here, that I highlighted above. He will only cover the shipping, and such "if it is under warranty" still! To me, that says that anyone that has had it for more than 1 year is responsible for at least the shipping, maybe even the cost to repair (not clear on that last part). For anyone like myself that had the damn blower sitting in a box for at least a year before having time to install it, that means we are pretty much s.o.l.! Bob, please correct me if I'm wrong here!

 

[black 10th vert]

Edited by mod: Refer to the pics in the first post.

It is clear to me, and anyone that knows anything about welding, that the areas around those welds (called the HAZ - heat affected zone) have become extremely brittle due to the heat from welding 6061-T6 sheet. As I stated earlier, T6 is a semi-hardened form of 6061 aluminum, which is used frequently in aircraft stuff because it has similar strength to sheet steel, without the weight penalty. The downside, is that because it is already in a hardened state, it does not lend itself very well to welding, whether it is a casting, or not (casting is the worst possible situation). Same goes for other types of forming. Yes, you can bend it in a brake, but if you try to straighten that bend, it will crack on that seam. I do a lot of forming of aluminum using my English wheel, and can say that the same principal applies to that type of forming (which involves stretching to make compound curves). That is why I use 3000 series plate for that.

 

[JMD0346]

Edited by mod: Refer to the pics in the first post.

It is clear to me, and anyone that knows anything about welding, that the areas around those welds (called the HAZ - heat affected zone) have become extremely brittle due to the heat from welding 6061-T6 sheet. As I stated earlier, T6 is a semi-hardened form of 6061 aluminum, which is used frequently in aircraft stuff because it has similar strength to sheet steel, without the weight penalty. The downside, is that because it is already in a hardened state, it does not lend itself very well to welding, whether it is a casting, or not (casting is the worst possible situation). Same goes for other types of forming. Yes, you can bend it in a brake, but if you try to straighten that bend, it will crack on that seam. I do a lot of forming of aluminum using my English wheel, and can say that the same principal applies to that type of forming (which involves stretching to make compound curves). That is why I use 3000 series plate for that.

I dont think that particular plate is 6061. He doesnt know what it is. Its something he or one of his guys found and cut a plate out of. You dont just go down to the metal supplier and buy aluminum plate with those ridges in it. That plate was manufactured for a purpose. A part of someting else. Its NOT stock plate. IMO its not 6061 either.

You can put a little heat on 6061 and bend it 90 degrees and it wont crack. Ive done it 100's of times. You may get some stress marks but it wont crack in two if done properly.

Steig doesnt owe me a damn thing. I would like to know where that plate came from. Maybe then we could figure out what alloy it may be. Id like to know also why he thinks its ok to weld 6061 to cast and who told him it would be ok.


Sid said steig would post up some answers so Ill shut up and be patient and see what shakes loose. Pun intended. LOL

 

[Boobinspector]

The bending part you are right and wrong my friend. 6061 O metal is soft enough that you can bend it beyond 90 degrees without cracking this includes going against the grain of the metal. But if it was 6061 T-6 alluminum, which is way harder you would have issues bending it. Unless as you stated heating. Except you would not want to do that. Due to the fact the heat would change the makeup of the alluminium and possibly make it more brittle. There is also another alluminium that is usable which is 7075 it has a different nickle content and so on from the 6061.

The big difference to someone whom is welding would be that the 6061 is much easier to weld in comparison to the 7075.

Something else that comes to mind in this is whether or not the surfaces are prep enough, to help induce a good weld. Contaminants can also expediate a weld to failing.

 

[Boobinspector]

Edited by mod: Refer to the pics in the first post.

It is clear to me, and anyone that knows anything about welding, that the areas around those welds (called the HAZ - heat affected zone) have become extremely brittle due to the heat from welding 6061-T6 sheet. As I stated earlier, T6 is a semi-hardened form of 6061 aluminum, which is used frequently in aircraft stuff because it has similar strength to sheet steel, without the weight penalty. The downside, is that because it is already in a hardened state, it does not lend itself very well to welding, whether it is a casting, or not (casting is the worst possible situation). Same goes for other types of forming. Yes, you can bend it in a brake, but if you try to straighten that bend, it will crack on that seam. I do a lot of forming of aluminum using my English wheel, and can say that the same principal applies to that type of forming (which involves stretching to make compound curves). That is why I use 3000 series plate for that.

I have had similar situations with T-6 in naval aviation I level maintenance. The only way to make most things with T-6 is to form and do all bends prior to harding it in a oven. The oven is capable of going up to 900* F. This process normally can take anywhere from 4 to 12 hours. Including quenching and re-heating the metal. Now I do believe that Stiegi could and would more than likely be better of with a 6061 metal was at a lower level of hardening. Such as T-3 or T-4 metal. Then in that case it would be able to flex a little more and not be as brittle.

 

[dynobobstieg]

We will pay for shipping both ways if you are still under our 1 year warranty and fix or remove at NO CHARGE to you.

We will fix or remove plate at NO CHARGE, you pay shipping to us and we pay to ship it back to you, if it is out of warranty.


So if you are out of our 1 year warranty we pay shipping back to you and still will replace or remove your plate FREE.

If you are still under warranty we pay shipping both ways and fix or remove FREE.

Thank you
Stiegemeier
636-949-2275

 

[SID297]

I think that pretty much explains how to take care of an issue with a torque plate on a Stage V. Even if you don't have an issue with it Stieg is still willing to remove it for free. I suggest everyone who has a Stage V and has any concern about the plate material or the welds cracking call Stieg and discuss your options, I'm sure they'll take care of you. All in all I think everyone whose blower has been effected by this issue is getting a pretty fair deal from Stieg and I'm happy to see this remedy come-about.

Stieg informed me that they will have a sticky thread in their forum containing all the information on the return/repair/removal/etc process. Look in there for updates, and post any questions you may have about them servicing the blowers you may have there.


This thread needs to go back on topic about discussing the metallurgy involved here.

 

[black 10th vert]

The bending part you are right and wrong my friend. 6061 O metal is soft enough that you can bend it beyond 90 degrees without cracking this includes going against the grain of the metal. But if it was 6061 T-6 alluminum, which is way harder you would have issues bending it. Unless as you stated heating. Except you would not want to do that. Due to the fact the heat would change the makeup of the alluminium and possibly make it more brittle. There is also another alluminium that is usable which is 7075 it has a different nickle content and so on from the 6061.

The big difference to someone whom is welding would be that the 6061 is much easier to weld in comparison to the 7075.

Something else that comes to mind in this is whether or not the surfaces are prep enough, to help induce a good weld. Contaminants can also expediate a weld to failing.

I think you misunderstood what I wrote, or that I wasn't clear enough. I know it can be successfully bent, I do that all the time! What I was saying is that it can't be re-bent, as in to try to straighten the bend, if you made a mistake - for example.;-) Also, as I said, it doesn't lend itself very well to a drwing/stretching type of process such as what you would do on an English wheel. What I was mentioning regarding the heat affected zone around the welds goes along with what you said about changing the properties of the T-6, and making it even more brittle.

Also, I wanted to clarify something else that was brought up earlier in this thread. It was mentioned that the "ribbed" plate that was shown in some of the pictures was just some random scrap, or a piece of awning, etc. That is not the case. It was formed with those ribs using a bead roller tool, which is a very commonly used method of adding strength to things like floorpans in racecars, because you can stiffen a thin metal, without adding weight, or additional structures for support. Inmo, Steig. used those ribs to try to combat this cracking issue, if it was because the material wasn't stiff enough. Clearly, there is more to it than that, which is probably why he hasn't done the beading to all of the revised blowers.

I'm not sure if it's even a possibility, but what about making a plate out of 3/16", or 1/4", and having it bolted to the Eaton case. It could then be insulated from the case (to absorb vibration) by using a rubber gasket, high temp silicone, etc. The early KB 2.2's had a bolted subplate, and it worked fine, so maybe this would be a possible solution here.:shrug:

Bob, if you are following this thread at all, please comment on this with your thoughts!;-)

Brian

 

[dynobobstieg]

Edit

 

[Jimmysidecarr]

Got some good stuff in here now! Genuine meat and potatoes.

Bob, if 1/8"(.125) is better than previous, but still had some isolated weld failures, would thicker still(3/16") remove the flex?
Or is the flex gone and just some welds have cracked?
Or something else at play that I may have missed.

BTW I'm here for the science, I've been Whippled for a bit now.

..

 

[JMD0346]

Boobinspecter you're right in your post. However Bob according to him isnt using T-6. Infact T6 hasnt come up in this discussion so that point is moot. That plate in that pic might be any alloy. Who knows. Bobs reluctance to tell us where he got it makes it hard to determine what it may be. Fact is he isnt gonna say. I find it funny he says "great post" about a post that really has nothing to do with the problem here. Typical.


You guys are too hung up on flex. I guess because its the easiest to understand. 6061 has very little if any flex. The main problem is trying to weld 6061 to cast aluminum. Period.

He may be able to pile it up and make it possibly hold from now on. Do you want to trust that? Possibly?

If you look at some of those pics you will see that not only did the weld crack the cast actually broke off and is stll embedded in the weld. Particularly the pic of the weld made at the rear of the plate. You can see the cast crystals embedded in that weld. That means the casting broke! That is typical of welding the two metals together. The only cast Aluminum you can half ass weld is mallable aluminum cast. Blowers arent made of that.

Im dont want to be ugly about it but Ive forgot more than most people know about metal work. Im sorry but you guys are being mislead by somebody that doesnt know you cant weld 6061 to cast and stick inside an engine. You guys just wont get it.


My offer stands. If I can help anyone in my area fix their blower I will. PM me. Other than that Im done with this thread.


Again If I offend anyone I apologize. I just love my site ad the guys here and want the best for them. This is the best site out there.

 

[black 10th vert]

I think you misunderstood what I wrote, or that I wasn't clear enough. I know it can be successfully bent, I do that all the time! What I was saying is that it can't be re-bent, as in to try to straighten the bend, if you made a mistake - for example.;-) Also, as I said, it doesn't lend itself very well to a drwing/stretching type of process such as what you would do on an English wheel. What I was mentioning regarding the heat affected zone around the welds goes along with what you said about changing the properties of the T-6, and making it even more brittle.

Also, I wanted to clarify something else that was brought up earlier in this thread. It was mentioned that the "ribbed" plate that was shown in some of the pictures was just some random scrap, or a piece of awning, etc. That is not the case. It was formed with those ribs using a bead roller tool, which is a very commonly used method of adding strength to things like floorpans in racecars, because you can stiffen a thin metal, without adding weight, or additional structures for support. Inmo, Steig. used those ribs to try to combat this cracking issue, if it was because the material wasn't stiff enough. Clearly, there is more to it than that, which is probably why he hasn't done the beading to all of the revised blowers.

I'm not sure if it's even a possibility, but what about making a plate out of 3/16", or 1/4", and having it bolted to the Eaton case. It could then be insulated from the case (to absorb vibration) by using a rubber gasket, high temp silicone, etc. The early KB 2.2's had a bolted subplate, and it worked fine, so maybe this would be a possible solution here.:shrug:

Bob, if you are following this thread at all, please comment on this with your thoughts!;-)

Brian

Anyone have any thoughts about this idea that I suggested? Guess Bob doesn't care to even comment on it.:shrug:

 

[PKFIRE]

Is there any material details you guys need to know about the Casting? Epcor down the road from me produced the castings for Eaton M112 superchargers for the Mustang Cobra. I might be able to find out since the company I work for buys cast aluminum parts made by them.

Off subject
It would be cool if someone could buy and have Epcor modify the existing mold of m112 if they still have it and do not use it anymore.