How to catch a GTR, need advice on which way to go

[Grant808]

Does look like your consistency went up, but that your concern/fear over your brakes is affecting you.

It's hard to tell from an interior mounted camera, but it looks like you aren't getting very close to the right side of the track and I see no hint of tagging the curbing.

How fast are you going around the last turn? Going into 2nd on track is harder than other downshifts. Revs need to be bumped about 40% to make a smooth shift (5-4 and 4-3 only need about 30% bump). So if you are not heel-toe shifting yet, then don't bother with 2nd until you can make the shift smoothly.

 

[Splatter]

Cheers! I am just kissing the edge of the curve but the telefone camera is not showing it very well (was warned that the piano edge is very rough and chunks the tires). I can get into 2nd gear ok when entering the corner, its the exit I need much more work on. Even in third I am at 63km/hr at the apex of the curve. In 3rd, if I come on the power to soon out of the curve, I end up in a power slide, lots of fun but my instructers frowned at me.... When trying in second, I nearly lost it and went into huge pendulam like slides that used most of the track.... then they really frowned and said for now stick to third.

The first curve after the straight is nice as I slide right to the edge of the road and gain on the faster cars but thats where I really use up tires.

Car is off to the body shop to remove my previous sliding adventures, as well as ducts etc. For next track event i'll have

1) PFZ pads again with braided brake lines and ATE
2) Brake ducts installed
3) tranny cooler
4) Finned GT500 diff cover (already have royal purple etc)
5) Pair of 275/35-19 Potenza S04 up front
6) -2 degree camber with MM camber plates installed

With these basic goodies and my brakes in condition, I hope I can get below 51 sec. 50.4 is a friends Boxster R, thats my target for now. I will keep updating my progress. Once again thanks for all the helpful input from everyone.

 

[twistedneck]

did you go to the Vorshlag web site yet? they have done exactly what you are looking for.. and the key is of course as you already know grip and braking w/o fade. body roll is fine with lowered springs and stock roll bars, you can opt for the 26mm rear laguna bar or the 25mm boss bar - to change your roll couple. i.e. balance in the corner.

the clutch is super heavy on stock boss swap it for something really light weight and get a light weight drive shaft it will help you to be quicker on the gas and brake and actually burn the tires less, downshift easier, etc.. get a wide gas pedal to make heel toe way easier. bleed the brakes with a vacuum pump for sure that's the best way hand held manual pump is fine...

vorshlag uses very wide square tire setup all around - forget the stagger. you will go through wheel bearings once you get that wide street slick on there but that's fine. NTO1's are cheap too. 100 treadwear is just fine. try removing the strut brace for more turn in, the car does not need it anyway - we need torsional stiffness not lateral strut tower stiffness - its got enough of that. 10,000 N-m/deg is pretty stiff for a factory car. (I know, the aston one 77 is 30,000 N-m/deg but that's a carbon tub.

heavily damped shocks are a must - and coil overs would let you tune ride height and reduce steering stiction. get a light weight litium ion battery, that saves over 20lbs. you need mechanical grip bad - that will improve with weight reduction, balance, low roll center, and sticky tires. interesting thread, keep the updates coming.

Vorshlag 2011 Mustang GT 5.0 - auto-x/track build - Page 22 - Vorshlag Motorsports Forum

that thread is a must read for anyone road racing a 2011+ Mustang. Those guys know how to go fast.

 

[SD_Stang]

Hey Splatter so I was curious about your brake issue and swore Fluid was one of the things that can make a major difference so I did some digging and on the GT500 forums they mentioned Motul 600 which is really good. I double checked this on the Porsche guys forums as well and saw the same results the only negative explained there is you should be flushing once per year with the 600. They also mentioned an upgrade over stock but not quite as good as the 600 was Motul 5.1 which is an upgrade over stock and can be used for street/track with a 2 year flush period.

Hope that helps.

 

[Splatter]

Hi, reading up on the Vorshlag threads, lots of interesting stuff. The ATE blue has a little lower boiling point then the Motul 600, I will take a look if there is any available down here. Will see if I can include a brake bleeder pump in my next shipment. Though I heard here on the forum that they can have problems bleeding the abs unit.

Was going to ask a question about springs but the thread is getting kind of long and is getting hard to remember who said what etc!

 

[Deranged2013]

OP. There is a place in Richmond VA called Performance Autosport that builds track cars. They specialize in road course racing and have won many championships in a Mustang. I would give them a call. They have ran/tested many different suspension setups and know what works. But like the others have already stated, be ready to spend big money.

 

[darreng505]

1. If you have $9,000 lying around get yourself the full grand-am 15" brake system (race brembos up front, not the cheesy GT500 brembo 6pots, and 15" gt500 rotors+bracket in back) including brake booster ($3k). Inquire at Capaldi Racing.

This is the system I'm saving for. It's the be all, end all. Probably can get 1.0-1.4 g's of braking depending on tire. Don't fall for the "street brakes" out there bragging 6 pistons. No good. Any caliper that is painted a pretty glossy color is probably not a race caliper. Beware.

2. Then drop another $1800 on toyo RS1 full competition slicks (square). I have a set being mounted this week. It's basically an F1 tire! lol You need to add G's of traction to catch a GTR on street tires.

3. Then, lower the motor (front center of gravity) 1/2" with the new BMR k-member, also reducing a bunch of weight. (I'm also having this done this week).

4. Listen to twistedneck. Good advice there.

5. Also listen to Deranged2013, PAS is a great shop and they will be doing my race tear-down conversion. Another $10k. Ask for Kevin.

6. Get some Motul 660

Once you've done all that check beck here for next steps....:lol:

 

[Splatter]

Best of luck to you!!! I think if I followed you down the rabbit hole I would have a wild time with the mad hatter.... But my significant other would probably kick me out.

The Open track sessions where I am trying to compete has the condition that the car must be road legal with papers up to date, no open exhausts or non DOT tires etc. The other open time class at another track (where I crashed....:bash has a 250hp Honda CRX with slicks, roll cage, no alternator or starter (about 700 kilos). It beats the GT-R's. But it has to be push started and arrives on a trailer. 2.8 kilos or 6.2 pounds per HP!!!!

I would perfer to give the raod going expensive euro machines a run for their money then get beat my might mouse!!

I will try to see if I can get Motul 660!! Looks like you will end up with a 302R!

 

[86Fbody]

Best of luck to you!!! I think if I followed you down the rabbit hole I would have a wild time with the mad hatter.... But my significant other would probably kick me out.

The Open track sessions where I am trying to compete has the condition that the car must be road legal with papers up to date, no open exhausts or non DOT tires etc. The other open time class at another track (where I crashed....:bash has a 250hp Honda CRX with slicks, roll cage, no alternator or starter (about 700 kilos). It beats the GT-R's. But it has to be push started and arrives on a trailer. 2.8 kilos or 6.2 pounds per HP!!!!

I would perfer to give the raod going expensive euro machines a run for their money then get beat my might mouse!!

I will try to see if I can get Motul 660!! Looks like you will end up with a 302R!

You could have the best of both worlds and do a Coyote swapped notchback Fox, light and powerful.

 

[JohnW#88]

This thread has progressed in an interesting but fairly predictable direction.

I humbly restate the OP needs to consider his safety and cockpit set-up before spending $9K on brakes. As this thread progressed, the OP has become more clear with his track goals. At this stage in his development, full slicks and F1 style brakes are not taking him in the right direction (IMO). Not flaming anyone, really I'm not, but high end parts with someone who is learning will most-certainly retard development.

This formula is real easy.

1. Safety. Not once did someone suggest a proper race seat to keep the OP from sliding all over the cabin. Safety upgrades will gain the OP speed as driver confidence will certainly improve.

2. Brakes. Stock OEM brakes are fine with quality lines, pads, fluid, ducts and maybe rotors. If the OP is melting/ fading brakes he needs to focus on #3.

3. Education. Travel to Utah- take the school. Perhaps Ship Barber or a race school in South America. Spend time in a LOW HP race car.

4. Spend money on lots of track time.

The OP needs fundamentals and a performance baseline before he spends a fortune on parts he cannot fully use.

Again, not knocking any suggestions others have made. I've just seen this picture before and know how it ends. Broke noobie who's frustrated that spending a fortune on parts didn't achieve the desired result.

Damn I sound old. I know spending money of fancy parts is far sexier than learning high performance driving and proper racecraft.

Opinions may vary.

 

[darreng505]

This thread has progressed in an interesting but fairly predictable direction.

I humbly restate the OP needs to consider his safety and cockpit set-up before spending $9K on brakes. As this thread progressed, the OP has become more clear with his track goals. At this stage in his development, full slicks and F1 style brakes are not taking him in the right direction (IMO). Not flaming anyone, really I'm not, but high end parts with someone who is learning will most-certainly retard development.

This formula is real easy.

1. Safety. Not once did someone suggest a proper race seat to keep the OP from sliding all over the cabin. Safety upgrades will gain the OP speed as driver confidence will certainly improve.

2. Brakes. Stock OEM brakes are fine with quality lines, pads, fluid, ducts and maybe rotors. If the OP is melting/ fading brakes he needs to focus on #3.

3. Education. Travel to Utah- take the school. Perhaps Ship Barber or a race school in South America. Spend time in a LOW HP race car.

4. Spend money on lots of track time.

The OP needs fundaments and a performance baseline before he spends a fortune on parts he cannot fully use.

Again, not knocking any suggestions others have made. I've just seen this picture before and know how it ends. Broke noobie who's frustrated that spending a fortune on parts didn't achieve the desired result.

Damn I sound old. I know spending money of fancy parts is far sexier than learning high performance driving and proper racecraft.

Opinions may vary.

I think your advice goes without saying. Kind of obvious that one needs to be safe and "skilled". The OP's first post was slanted towards hardware upgrades so rather than lecture them on the fundaments I gave them expensive upgrades that would put the boss on par with the GTR. The rest is the drivers responsibility! Lol

 

[Splatter]

I do appreciate all the good advice and insights etc. I Do not think I am anywhere near ready to stick myself into a car that can hurtle around corners way too far above my skill set. Little by little I will keep trying to get better. Was happy to see that my times are very much more regular at the last track school

As mentioned many times, my biggest *mechanical" issue is brakes, I am not sure if skill will help that much with fade, my track really only as two hard braking points. Living down here in Chile means parts take a month to get here at best, sometimes two. I am sure I can get my time down substantially just by going back to the OEM pads and putting the extra track tutoring to use. The HPS pads I used were a very bad move on my part. Ford has no Brembo mustangs in Chile, so no pads. Funny, but am seeing lots of GT's with crunched front ends due to stock brakes.

August is my next time trial, I will post the results with my simple bolt ons and then see where it takes me. Hopefully I can get below 51 sec.

I know I will get yelled at,,, But, anyone know of a roll bar that allows the rear seats to be used?? Or at least that has bolt in sections for the track?? The Kids love the car too! I saw some a MaximumMotor sports roll cage that might do the trick.... Will look at a racing seat as well

 

[JohnW#88]

As mentioned many times, my biggest *mechanical" issue is brakes, I am not sure if skill will help that much with fade...

Hi Splatter,

A million years ago when I started racing, I was real hard on the car and pretty darn slow. Each lap I'd blast down the straights, waiting until the last second and KILL the brakes. I could out-brake everyone! I thought that's how it was done. Each lap the faster guys would slowly pull away- so I pushed harder! Wash and repeat lap after lap my first season. The harder I worked the car, the slower I got and the more car issues I had.

It took time and instruction not to rely the safe petal too much. It took time to develop the discipline to use the brakes accordingly and carry momentum in each segment of the corner. The less I KILLED my brakes the fewer problems I had with them!

I only watched a few of your laps but, as others have said, you're leaving a lot on the table. This is good! If you're fairly competitive now, just think where you'll be in time. ;-)

There's a huge ROI taking a pro school. Spending $9K on a "family trip" to Utah would have a MUCH bigger performance return than a pimpy $9K braking system. IMO.

Knowing what I do now, my first few years I'd do completely different.

Good luck.

 

[VNMOUS1]

VMP Superchargers pumps up another Boss

Another happy camper rolled off our dyno yesterday with a VMP Superchargers 2.3L TVS kit under the hood.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/m2f6637gggswvb0/20130702_135203.jpg

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9ofz5cvtr9l8g5a/20130702_135106.jpg

He saw 599 rwhp on a Dynojet with an 85mm pulley! This same kit has seen 800+ rwhp on our Boss 302 with additional supporting mods.

The kit is on sale now t $6499. Compare it to the 'other guys' and look at everything VMP includes.

VMP 2.3L TVS w/ CNC Ported Inlet & CNC Matched High Flow Inlet Elbow
AFCO Dual Fan Heat Exchanger
Optional Upgrade to the larger VMP Heat Exchanger.
47# Fuel Injectors and high-flow fuel rail (Supports ~500-600HP)
Optional upgrades to ID725 or ID1000 Injectors to support even more power
JLT 123mm Plastic CAI for Supercharged 5.0L (Carbon Fiber Optional Upgrade)
Dual 60mm Throttle Body (upgradeable)
Your choice of pulley size (see below)
Plug and play wiring harness extensions
Upper and lower aluminum intake manifolds with high-efficiency intercooler
Intercooler pump & lines
1st shiv HD belt system with tensioner, belt, and idlers.
All required fasteners, wiring, brackets, hoses and clamps
Turn-key ready to bolt-on supercharger kit for the 5.0L Coyote/Roadrunner Mustang.

Features

Performance – 650+ RWHP 5.0L and 750+ RWHP Boss 302
Reliability – 1 year warranty and 100,000 Mile Service Interval on TVS blower
Flexibility – Dial in at a level appropriate for you with our selection of pulleys & upgrades
Driveability – Fantastic driveability even at the highest boost levels.
Expandability - TONS of room to grow with many of our optional upgrades
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85mm - 9psi
82mm – 10psi
79mm – 11-12psi - (72# Injectors minimum requirement at this level)
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69mm – 15psi - (72# Injectors minimum requirement at this level)
66mm - 16psi - (8-rib conversion required)
63mm - 17psi - (8-rib conversion required)

We'd love to hear from you if you have any questions! (321) 206-9369 x 112

BJ

 

[darreng505]

OP. Next time you're at the track go ask the guy in the GT-R if he blew $9k on a "family trip" to utah. :bored: Then check out the performance parts he has.

The guys who drive mustangs in grand am couldn't compete in their own class until they got the right setup - namely brakes. So in the end you need both. But the stock car will never beat or catch a GT-R no matter how many pro schools to go to.

 

[JohnW#88]

.

 

[JohnW#88]

darreng505,

Are you suggesting the OP needs the "right setup" for his weekend HPDE hobby? A $9,000 braking system? The same setup professional road racers use for 2:45-3:00 sprint races? He really "needs" those parts to chase around other street cars on a small track in S. America?

Bunk. Waste of money given the OP's stated goals, budget and current level of development.

An ill prepared rookie could fade carbon brakes on a F1 car.

Splatter, money well spent here:
http://www.bosstrackattack.com/

 

[darreng505]

darreng505,

Are you suggesting the OP needs the "right setup" for his weekend HPDE hobby? A $9,000 braking system? The same setup professional road racers use for 2:45-3:00 sprint races? He really "needs" those parts to chase around other street cars on a small track in S. America?

Bunk. Waste of money given the OP's stated goals, budget and current level of development.

An ill prepared rookie could fade carbon brakes on a F1 car.

Splatter, money well spent here:
http://www.bosstrackattack.com/

It was a tongue-in-cheek suggestion not to be taken seriously because that would be what it would take....which is to say, quite a big investment, essentially a 302R conversion.

 

[Splatter]

Well, no worries, no intention of spending 9000 on brakes!! I think the Boss track attack is for people who bought cars in the USA and no more then a year ago. The miller sport school is interesting, though the 3 day coarse is more in line with my intentions!!

I was tempted to add the Ford Racing Boss 302 lowered springs to my last shipment, but repented at the last minute. Ford would not give out the spring rates to Mike and LATEMODELRESTORATION, so I will wait and see how the 275/35-19 tires fit up front and what times I get with the brake cooling/PFZ pads first. My latest parts arrive next week so I should be all ready for August time trails.

Question, If you lower the car mildly, do you need to add a Panhard bar. And if you do, how do you adjust it to re-align the rear axle??

 

[darreng505]

Well, no worries, no intention of spending 9000 on brakes!! I think the Boss track attack is for people who bought cars in the USA and no more then a year ago. The miller sport school is interesting, though the 3 day coarse is more in line with my intentions!!

I was tempted to add the Ford Racing Boss 302 lowered springs to my last shipment, but repented at the last minute. Ford would not give out the spring rates to Mike and LATEMODELRESTORATION, so I will wait and see how the 275/35-19 tires fit up front and what times I get with the brake cooling/PFZ pads first. My latest parts arrive next week so I should be all ready for August time trails.

Question, If you lower the car mildly, do you need to add a Panhard bar. And if you do, how do you adjust it to re-align the rear axle??

Yes. You need an adjustable panhard bar otherwise your steering will pull to one direction on accel. The PH bar has threaded adjusters that move the axle left or right. Use a plumb bob to measure alignment at the rear inner fender apex.