single vs. twins

[eebj01]

Whipple hp #'s

Maybe a Kenne Bell 2.8 doesn't make 700 rwhp but I can tell you that PSI Motorsports dyno'd Stormin Normin's Whipple 2.3 Cobra (JDM's old car) to over 700 rwhp on pump gas. There were baseline pulls made to show the hp increase. Don't say it can't be done with a Kenne Bell 2.8 because the concensus says it can't. That's the problem with this stuff. Too may people trying to state fact when, in fact, their knowledge is based on other people's opinions. A 700 rwhp positive displacement blower car should beat a 700 rwhp turbo car because the blower car will be making instant boost and much more torque down low.

 

[TRBO VNM]

I was just wondering. I've always loved the fit and finish of the Hellion kit. Always have since I first saw it on your orange car. How much power can you make with a Hellion 76 on pump 91/93 octane?

all depends really on the tuner and how far you want to push it. Me personally as well as my tuner like to play it safe unless you request something more aggressive. I don't like running over 18# on pump gas. sure it can be done with any setup and I did with my eaton, but it is up to the user and tuner. but honestly, it is hard to keep street tires planted at 18# on a turbo car. I tried and anything over about 16# was just stupid in a sense of the rear was all over the place. at the same time the car wasn't setup suspension wise to really handle it and obviously didn't have the tires on the handle it.

Ed, I am going to disagree. with the car setup correctly for drag, the turbo car should pull on the blower car. same hp/tq, if the car is setup to load the engine off the line, like I assume yours is with the auto setup, I would say the roots blower will lose because of the heat soak and more strain on the motor to make the same power. now take a manual car or one like mine that wasn't setup for drag and I would side on the blower winning the race. but all things equal, power, driver, car setup for both applications, the turbo should take it because of efficiency alone.

even when I was on 20# with 107 unleaded in the tank and a whipple car at 24# I walked him. he was making in the mid 6's he said I was probably in the upper 6's to lower 7's I assume. but it was a pretty hot day so both of us were probably down on power a bit.

regarding stormin norman, I am not going to deny it happened, but I am sure as you know that is definitely not the norm with a 2.3 whipple, so I am sure you have the doubters out there and there have been places who's dyno's read on the high side. either way, damn good power.

 

[Blown02]

Maybe a Kenne Bell 2.8 doesn't make 700 rwhp but I can tell you that PSI Motorsports dyno'd Stormin Normin's Whipple 2.3 Cobra (JDM's old car) to over 700 rwhp on pump gas. There were baseline pulls made to show the hp increase. Don't say it can't be done with a Kenne Bell 2.8 because the concensus says it can't. That's the problem with this stuff. Too may people trying to state fact when, in fact, their knowledge is based on other people's opinions. A 700 rwhp positive displacement blower car should beat a 700 rwhp turbo car because the blower car will be making instant boost and much more torque down low.

geeze.. no one is saying any of this stuff.. no one said a kb2.8 couldnt make 700rwhp.. i actually i already said it has made 700whp on an 03 cobra.. at 28psi! ya a 700rwhp positive displacement blower car should beat a 700rwhp turbo car, all things being equal, but that turbo car is prob running half the boost..epper:

 

[Almo]

700 rwhp out of a 281ci motor is absolutley incredible no matter how you get
it ,when you factor in drivetrain loss and power needed to turn the blower its even more amazing...but as far as turbos go ... i like the hellion 76..seen one run at the drag day and it was bad ass..running low 10s in the 140s on medium boost. seen an hp kit take forever to get right also... googd luck

You're so right Dave!!

It seems and I might get bashed for this but it is true... half the people with 03/04 Turbo Stangs out on the streets can brag all they want about which kits give you more HP to the wheels and say they put down 800+ to the wheels. What good is it outside of a 3rd/4th gear pull? Who gives a shit... yes, I will be the first to give kudos to those people but its not as impressive as being able (like few have done) to take it to the track and turn the boost up a little and be able to run a sick ET.

I was originally thinking a 3.4 kit with heads and cams but I have decided to go with a Hellion setup soon. To each his own and a Turbo(s) is a turbo... even if a twin can out do a single by 50/75 hp at high boost, it isn’t going to matter unless you have weight reduction. I mean let’s face it, not like a twin kit putting down 50 more to the wheels is going to run off and leave a single turbo’ed car in the dust.

I don’t understand why so many are fixated on the Dyno HP/TQ numbers either. :shrug:

Steve… thought I would toss this up to you before you decide. I can tell you a big reason why the THP kit might be putting down a little more compared to the Hellion kits at present time. Because most numbers reported from the Hellion kits have owners that chose to go with the 99/01 and or 03/04 Mach upper and lower intakes. THP used the Sullivan and the Sullivan has straight short runners and this alone will yield more HP in the end. Find some numbers from a Hellion kit with a Sullivan setup and compare those to the twin kits on stock 03/04 motors… and before something is said… I also think the smaller Hellion inlet pipe might be a little restrictive compared to the inlet piping seen from the HP kits. Just a thought.

Anyways, good luck with your purchase!! :thumbsup:

 

[Antex]

I love my KB and have no plans on getting rid of it - but hands down a turbo is much more efficient - and for the price it better be!


All things being equal a completely dialed in turbo set up for the track will be able to take a twin screw, just like a bigger twin screw 3.4/2.8/2.6 beats a smaller 2.4/2.3/2.2, and a twin screw will walk away from an eaton...again all things being equal - same car, same driver,etc...

 

[2003Slobra]

You're so right Dave!!

It seems and I might get bashed for this but it is true... half the people with 03/04 Turbo Stangs out on the streets can brag all they want about which kits give you more HP to the wheels and say they put down 800+ to the wheels. What good is it outside of a 3rd/4th gear pull? Who gives a shit... yes, I will be the first to give kudos to those people but its not as impressive as being able (like few have done) to take it to the track and turn the boost up a little and be able to run a sick ET.

I was originally thinking a 3.4 kit with heads and cams but I have decided to go with a Hellion setup soon. To each his own and a Turbo(s) is a turbo... even if a twin can out do a single by 50/75 hp at high boost, it isn’t going to matter unless you have weight reduction. I mean let’s face it, not like a twin kit putting down 50 more to the wheels is going to run off and leave a single turbo’ed car in the dust.

I don’t understand why so many are fixated on the Dyno HP/TQ numbers either. :shrug:

Steve… thought I would toss this up to you before you decide. I can tell you a big reason why the THP kit might be putting down a little more compared to the Hellion kits at present time. Because most numbers reported from the Hellion kits have owners that chose to go with the 99/01 and or 03/04 Mach upper and lower intakes. THP used the Sullivan and the Sullivan has straight short runners and this alone will yield more HP in the end. Find some numbers from a Hellion kit with a Sullivan setup and compare those to the twin kits on stock 03/04 motors… and before something is said… I also think the smaller Hellion inlet pipe might be a little restrictive compared to the inlet piping seen from the HP kits. Just a thought.

Anyways, good luck with your purchase!! :thumbsup:

Nate (Hellion Cobra) already uses a Sullivan Intake instead of the 99/01.

 

[2003Slobra]

Maybe a Kenne Bell 2.8 doesn't make 700 rwhp but I can tell you that PSI Motorsports dyno'd Stormin Normin's Whipple 2.3 Cobra (JDM's old car) to over 700 rwhp on pump gas. There were baseline pulls made to show the hp increase. Don't say it can't be done with a Kenne Bell 2.8 because the concensus says it can't. That's the problem with this stuff. Too may people trying to state fact when, in fact, their knowledge is based on other people's opinions. A 700 rwhp positive displacement blower car should beat a 700 rwhp turbo car because the blower car will be making instant boost and much more torque down low.

No one is saying a 2.8 CAN'T make 700, but for a 2.3 to make 700 on Boost alone is quite the feat. Again, not saying it can't be done.

By the time you factor in how much boost is needed to properly turn a Whipple 2.3 to 700 on Boost alone, would probably be in the 25-28 PSI range. With the Blower spinning that hard and fast, you're IAT temps would go threw the roof causing the whole set up to be a lot less efficient. Now you would need to run a higher octane than 93, and run a midly low timing.

OR I could just run 15 LBS in my TT Cobra and make over 700 all day on pump gas and be 10X as efficient.

All things being equal a completely dialed in turbo set up for the track will be able to take a twin screw, just like a bigger twin screw 3.4/2.8/2.6 beats a smaller 2.4/2.3/2.2, and a twin screw will walk away from an eaton...again all things being equal - same car, same driver,etc...

Amen. Nothing else more to add to this already true statement!! :beer:

I don’t understand why so many are fixated on the Dyno HP/TQ numbers either.

Because people think a Higher Number will win them a race. They don't understand power under the curve, ect. They think that 1000 HP is better than 800, so of course they will win.

 

[Almo]

Nate (Hellion Cobra) already uses a Sullivan Intake instead of the 99/01.

Yes sir... I was going to point Nate's out but wasn't for sure if he had replaced the motor yet.

 

[smashedheadcat]

The HP kit uses the 99-01 intake, spools faster and makes more power than the hellion kit. Going with the sullivan intake on the hellion will net more power but it will increase spool time and sacrifice low/midrange power.

 

[Almo]

The HP kit uses the 99-01 intake, spools faster and makes more power than the hellion kit. Going with the sullivan intake on the hellion will net more power but it will increase spool time and sacrifice low/midrange power.

and before something is said… I also think the smaller Hellion inlet pipe might be a little restrictive compared to the inlet piping seen from the HP kits.

Hence why I typed what I did above.... and I stated the above knowing someone would want to try and point it out so I made sure to mention the difference... again, little things that need to be pointed out when speaking in terms of the big picture... especially when comparing twins to single numbers. Guess you missed it.

 

[Blown02]

Hence why I typed what I did above.... and I stated the above knowing someone would want to try and point it out so I made sure to mention the difference... again, little things that need to be pointed out when speaking in terms of the big picture... especially when comparing twins to single numbers. Guess you missed it.

almo I think there is a reason behind the small inlet piping on the helion kit.. I think its to reduce spool time..

 

[smashedheadcat]

Hence why I typed what I did above.... and I stated the above knowing someone would want to try and point it out so I made sure to mention the difference... again, little things that need to be pointed out when speaking in terms of the big picture... especially when comparing twins to single numbers. Guess you missed it.

I guess I missed your point. I'd think as long as you see the manifold pressure you're looking for, it wouldn't be a problem.

 

[TRBO VNM]

nate had the sullivan on the car with the 76mm I believe and kept it on with the 88. he could tell you what the differences were. Hellion has the intake pipe in stock if the customer wants to use the sullivan intake instead of the 99/01 cobra intake. you just need to specify when you order. the HP kit may make more power, but the size of the turbo's makes a difference. not all the hp kits make more power. that is like if the hellion 88 kit was the only one they had available and I said it makes more than the HP kit..well, if you put large enough twins on then the HP kit might make more than the single 88. you can't be accurate making blanket statements like that, especially now with the 88 kit out.

 

[Almo]

almo I think there is a reason behind the small inlet piping on the helion kit.. I think its to reduce spool time..

That and I am sure it’s a convenience to be routed through the small hole in the fender well. :thumbsup:

 

[TurboV3nomVa]

Ok so you buy the Sullivan to go with the Hellion and you're up another grand puttin you at around 8 grand. The THP kit is 8 grand with the sullivan already and rails, not to mention you're gettin a faster spool, more low end, more top end, basically more of everything. Congrats on going Hellion Allen , never saw that coming. I guess you werent too impressed with the 3.4 whipple either. Gonna be scarey to see that 2900 pound car with over 700 to the wheels. Its gonna be like watchin a smurf gettin shot out of a cannon.

Its funny how I start a thread to compare and ppl start gettin butthurt, step away from the computer and relax. And I wasnt plannin on calling you for help either so no worries Jason. But clearly you're still upset cuz I wouldnt trade you my car for yours, I think everyone who knows can tell just by your tone on here . Here you are a dealer for Hellion postin up on the forum for me not to call you for help ? I'll be sure to let Hellion know you told me that if I do decide to get a Hellion in the future, Im sure they'll be pleased . Even more reason for me to go with a THP or not even go turbo at all if Im gonna have to be part of this kinda nonsense. Why do the turbo guys all get so worked up ? This is supposed to be a thread comparing the pros and cons of both. It isnt a pissin contest or an internet race either so dont post on this thread if you have nothing positive to contribute, which clearly you dont. Thanks to those of you actually have something useful and constructive to say. Keep the useful info coming .

 

[Almo]

Steve, I have planned on a turbo since selling my 04. I just wasn't going to tell anyone... telling people I was going with another TS so no one else would do one and I would be the first. Of course, for a little while, I did think about the 3.4.

That said... I'll have one soon enough... sounds like you're dead set on one and or two.. :-D and I'll get to see what your car does. Before making my mind up as well. I haven't written THP kit off... just always liked the Hellion and plus it being able to ship in a few days. :thumbsup:

 

[Hissssnsvt]

Congrats on going Hellion Allen , never saw that coming. I guess you werent too impressed with the 3.4 whipple either.

LMAO! You internet bench racers crack me up. So your going to base your decision on one persons "first time to the track with new setup" results? WTF were you expecting the car to run, 8's??? ROFL, not in this life time buddy, even if I was 2900lbs...If it would make you happy, put up around 4 grand for a new short block and I'll go out and burn my shit down so I can run a more "impressive" # for you guys.

Tell you what, when your done dreaming of owning a turbo car, get your junk to the track. While your trying to spool your shit up at the line, I'll be out past the 60' marker, see if you can catch me....the turbo car with a built motor, solid rear, and automatic couldnt at WFC...or did you miss that video? By the time you finally figure out wtf your going to do with your car, instead of talking a bunch of shit about it, I promise you wont catch me. That is if you still have your car by then.

 

[Bullitt357]

Official language of the U.S.A..................English
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[TRBO VNM]

LMAO! You internet bench racers crack me up. So your going to base your decision on one persons "first time to the track with new setup" results? WTF were you expecting the car to run, 8's??? ROFL, not in this life time buddy, even if I was 2900lbs...If it would make you happy, put up around 4 grand for a new short block and I'll go out and burn my shit down so I can run a more "impressive" # for you guys.

Tell you what, when your done dreaming of owning a turbo car, get your junk to the track. While your trying to spool your shit up at the line, I'll be out past the 60' marker, see if you can catch me....the turbo car with a built motor, solid rear, and automatic couldnt at WFC...or did you miss that video? By the time you finally figure out wtf your going to do with your car, instead of talking a bunch of shit about it, I promise you wont catch me. That is if you still have your car by then.

:lol: nice ken.

for the record Steve, I have posted plenty of useful info and had to correct a lot of the garbage you have posted. But apparently you still don't get it or comprehend it. did you see the nice long paragraph about my experiences with my car and what I experienced with the hellion install, maintenance and driveability? this is a public forum. so we can post in any thread we want that is open to the public, just as you do to.

BTW, no need to call hellion. I called them over a week ago when YOU pm'ed me about being ready to buy. I explained someone may be calling from Virginia because I wasn't going to deal with him. but by all means, give them a call. I am sure Jeff is more than willing to help you out and answer any additional questions you have. And yeah, you are wrong again about the sullivan. just more assumptions.

the kit price is the same whether you want the pipe for the sullivan or the 99/01 intake. they don't offer the sullivan intake itself like they do the 99/01. so still you are at 6395 for the kit, 200 for shipping of everything and then you buy the sullivan and other 99/01 parts you need. same as you would with the 99/01 if you were sourcing it all from somewhere else than hellion. hopefully I explained it better for you and others.

 

[TurboV3nomVa]

LMAO! You internet bench racers crack me up. So your going to base your decision on one persons "first time to the track with new setup" results? WTF were you expecting the car to run, 8's??? ROFL, not in this life time buddy, even if I was 2900lbs...If it would make you happy, put up around 4 grand for a new short block and I'll go out and burn my shit down so I can run a more "impressive" # for you guys.

Tell you what, when your done dreaming of owning a turbo car, get your junk to the track. While your trying to spool your shit up at the line, I'll be out past the 60' marker, see if you can catch me....the turbo car with a built motor, solid rear, and automatic couldnt at WFC...or did you miss that video? By the time you finally figure out wtf your going to do with your car, instead of talking a bunch of shit about it, I promise you wont catch me. That is if you still have your car by then.

I never even mentioned your name or your car. I just said I wasnt impressed with the new whipples that are out. When did you become part of this ?

And for the record Jason, I said the sullivan would add cost , not for the kit itself but just factoring in the extra grand or so for the sullivan on top. With the BB upgrade and a sullivan your just about at 8 grand, same as a THP that already comes with a sullivan and rails. You misunderstood, calm yourself down and leave your ego at the door , its not welcome here . I know Im not the only one that can tell your still mad about not gettin my car . Quit with the bullsh1t already.