KC -Worth it or not, street only
- Thread starter cobracide
- Start date
That sounds like a really cool project. You should take some pics as you go along, then write up a thread afterward.;-)
Just don't rupture those lines near a high heat source because ES-12a is very flamable...
Just FYI guys because im an A/C guy. Same goes for ES-12a just becarefull.
HC-12aFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaJump to: navigation, search
This article is an orphan, as few or no other articles link to it. Please introduce links to this page from related articles; suggestions may be available. (February 2009)
HC-12a, also called ES-12a, OZ-12a, and Hydrocarbon Blend B, is a "drop-in" replacement refrigerant for Freon-12 and to a lesser extent, R-134a. HC-12a is a mixture of hydrocarbons, specifically propane (R-290) and isobutane (R-600a), and is therefore considered nearly non-ozone-depleting when compared to dichlorodifluoromethane (R-12, Freon-12) or 1,1,1,2-tetrafluoroethane (R-134a). The mixture can be used in refrigeration systems designed for R-12. HC-12a provides better cooling than an R-12 system retrofitted to R-134a, with much greater energy efficiency as well. Unlike R-134a, HC-12a is completely compatible with the hoses and oils used in R-12 systems, making the conversion much easier to accomplish. HC-12a is also patent-free due to its non-synthetic nature.
Because of its flammability, it is illegal to replace R-12 with HC-12a in the United States. It is not illegal to purchase HC-12a, or to use it in refrigeration systems that were not originally charged with R-12, except for in certain states that prohibit the use of flammable refrigerants in automobiles.[1]Some advantages to using the HC-12a mixture over retrofitting to R-134a are cost and labor. Since HC-12a is a "drop-in" replacement, no seals need to be replaced and minimal effort has to be put in to changing the refrigeration system around. Disadvantages to using the HC-12a mixture in R-12 systems is that it is potentially dangerous and is illegal in the United States. The refrigerant used is propane and other hydrocarbons which are flammable. However, it should also be noted that R-134a (and other refrigerants) are just as flammable when mixed with refrigerant oil, yet the quantity of refrigerant and oil in a typical system is so low that the danger in any case is minimal. Additionally, when R-134a is exposed to flame, it releases toxic phosgene gas, whereas HC-12a is completely non-toxic.
Just FYI guys because im an A/C guy. Same goes for ES-12a just becarefull.
HC-12aFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaJump to: navigation, search
This article is an orphan, as few or no other articles link to it. Please introduce links to this page from related articles; suggestions may be available. (February 2009)
HC-12a, also called ES-12a, OZ-12a, and Hydrocarbon Blend B, is a "drop-in" replacement refrigerant for Freon-12 and to a lesser extent, R-134a. HC-12a is a mixture of hydrocarbons, specifically propane (R-290) and isobutane (R-600a), and is therefore considered nearly non-ozone-depleting when compared to dichlorodifluoromethane (R-12, Freon-12) or 1,1,1,2-tetrafluoroethane (R-134a). The mixture can be used in refrigeration systems designed for R-12. HC-12a provides better cooling than an R-12 system retrofitted to R-134a, with much greater energy efficiency as well. Unlike R-134a, HC-12a is completely compatible with the hoses and oils used in R-12 systems, making the conversion much easier to accomplish. HC-12a is also patent-free due to its non-synthetic nature.
Because of its flammability, it is illegal to replace R-12 with HC-12a in the United States. It is not illegal to purchase HC-12a, or to use it in refrigeration systems that were not originally charged with R-12, except for in certain states that prohibit the use of flammable refrigerants in automobiles.[1]Some advantages to using the HC-12a mixture over retrofitting to R-134a are cost and labor. Since HC-12a is a "drop-in" replacement, no seals need to be replaced and minimal effort has to be put in to changing the refrigeration system around. Disadvantages to using the HC-12a mixture in R-12 systems is that it is potentially dangerous and is illegal in the United States. The refrigerant used is propane and other hydrocarbons which are flammable. However, it should also be noted that R-134a (and other refrigerants) are just as flammable when mixed with refrigerant oil, yet the quantity of refrigerant and oil in a typical system is so low that the danger in any case is minimal. Additionally, when R-134a is exposed to flame, it releases toxic phosgene gas, whereas HC-12a is completely non-toxic.
I found it better not use the HE with the KC. I am not concerned with running my AC all the time.
Excellent post!:beer:
Personaly I would put it down as the number one mod, before any HP mods!
They are definitely worth it but make sure you are running the stock HE or pulling the HE out altogether. I currently have a fluidyne HE with a gen2 KC. I will post up numbers afterwork of my IATs, IC fluid temp and ambient temp. Then I will remove the HE altogether and post the numbers.
I'm looking at buying a KC, but I have a LFP HE - How much higher would the IATs be with me just using this HE? I really like the way my HE looks with the SVT stencil on the front hate to get rid of it!
If its just a few degrees difference I can deal with that.
Yeah, it is going to be pretty cool. Joe was great to work with and Rodney is looking for a solution to his tranny temp issues. From what I have seen and people I know, Rodney uses his car a little different than most that put auto's in their terminators. I will definitely be taking pics and we will see what the results are.
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Route the lines around the HE and keep the core in place in case your AC goes out.
How will you limit how cold the trans. fluid gets? I've see POST blower IC fluid temps. of 37* and I know transmissions have a certain operating temp. range.
Who says same goes for ES-12a as HC-12a? Cause here is what I read about the ACTUAL product. Take a good gander at the ignition temperature, it's LESS flammable than your precious R-134a buy just a few degrees! :burn:
Is ENVIRO-SAFE safe?
Yes! ENVIRO-SAFE is an "ENVIRONMENTALLY SAFE" organic, non-toxic, non-ozone depleting hydrocarbon compound. ENVIRO-SAFE is a hydrocarbon refrigerant and has been endorsed by GreenPeace. It is in full compliance with the UN Montreal Protocol. Like most organic materials ENVIRO-SAFE is flammable, but its ignition temperature is 1585ºF at both 5 psi and 0 psi (which is better than the DuPont R-134a's ignition temperature of 368ºF at 5 psi and 1411ºF at 0 psi). Nevertheless, a pine odor has been added to the product so that any leak in a refrigeration system can be readily detected. To locate the precise origin of a leak, it is recommended that a hydrocarbon detector be utilized. Most mid and higher priced conventional leak detectors will detect hydrocarbon refrigerants. In the alternative, either soap bubbles or ENVIRO-SAFE DYE-CHARGE can be used. ENVIRO-SAFE DYE-CHARGE is both visually detectable and responsive to black light. In a safety study, the prestigious Arthur D. Little scientists concluded that hydrocarbon refrigerants pose no significant increased risk or hazard over Freon.
Cited source: How efficient is ENVIRO-SAFE
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Good question and hopefully I respond correctly. Joe designed it and we spoke about how it will operate, but this was at least a month ago, so right now I am a little fuzzy on the particulars and I am sure it will come back to me when I am installing and looking through the directions....basically...
We are still using the trans cooler/fan setup that Rodney has on the car and it is equipped with a temp sensor. I believe that sensor tells the fan to come on about 170-175 degrees. We are using that signal to activate a solenoid that will allow the fluid to flow through the KC. So basically we will be maintaining that temp pretty much all the time. We do have 2 chillers obviously since there is intercooler coolant and trans fluid. This system is setup to have 3 loads (AC, intercooler coolant and trans fluid).
The heat exchanger will be removed and larger capacity box installed. We are also putting a fan on the condenser.
Thats a rough idea of how it will work. I will put up a thread and stuff when the time comes.
Great Thread. I have a KC on my car, and I honestly can't say how great it is yet, but as a side-note. Are the people getting kits getting the cylinder units instead of the rectangular units shown in the pictures? Only reason I ask is that's what I've got, and I'm not sure how much testing was done on it, but all it seems to do is keep my IC fluid luke-warm, I've never felt it Ice Cold. Maybe I need to give Joe a call. :shrug:
Just my findings so far, I will keep this thread updated as I tweak different variables and try different scenario's to find the optimal setup for my cobra.
My Gen2 KC (tubular style) has been on my car since march this year, I always run with the AC on.
My IAT (precharge) driving temp hangs around 80-90 degrees. Steeda underhood CAI. My IAT2 (chargetemp) while moving runs around 110-115. Stop and go traffic it climbs too 130-140. This was with my Fluidyne HE.
Lastnight I removed my HE completely and am still watching numbers to get a good idea of the difference. So far what I have noticed w/o HE the KC unit in my car maintains lower IAT2's while idle hangs around 100-105. However, continuous spirited driving my setup does not maintain lower temp. Remaining in boost my IAT2's rise quickly from 105 to 130+ and cannot retrun below 125 until the car sits at idle for several minutes.
So far it seems that in my car no HE would benefit drag runs or shorter boosted runs and some form of HE for daily driving as the moving air through the HE maintains a higher constant IAT2 110-115 however, during longer drives and continuous boosted the HE helps keep up with heaksoak.
Please do not take my word as gospel as I have countless variables that need to be addressed. I need to address the IAT (precharge) mainly going from an underhood CAI to a true CAI like JLT. Also I need to find out how much charge my AC unit has and look into a colder refrigerant than R-134a.
My Gen2 KC (tubular style) has been on my car since march this year, I always run with the AC on.
My IAT (precharge) driving temp hangs around 80-90 degrees. Steeda underhood CAI. My IAT2 (chargetemp) while moving runs around 110-115. Stop and go traffic it climbs too 130-140. This was with my Fluidyne HE.
Lastnight I removed my HE completely and am still watching numbers to get a good idea of the difference. So far what I have noticed w/o HE the KC unit in my car maintains lower IAT2's while idle hangs around 100-105. However, continuous spirited driving my setup does not maintain lower temp. Remaining in boost my IAT2's rise quickly from 105 to 130+ and cannot retrun below 125 until the car sits at idle for several minutes.
So far it seems that in my car no HE would benefit drag runs or shorter boosted runs and some form of HE for daily driving as the moving air through the HE maintains a higher constant IAT2 110-115 however, during longer drives and continuous boosted the HE helps keep up with heaksoak.
Please do not take my word as gospel as I have countless variables that need to be addressed. I need to address the IAT (precharge) mainly going from an underhood CAI to a true CAI like JLT. Also I need to find out how much charge my AC unit has and look into a colder refrigerant than R-134a.
Great info. I assumed there was going to be some sort of thermostat involved as the KC really knocks out the heat. So much so running cold as it can would probably damage a trans. in the long run. Thanks for the info!
I'll work on seeing what my IAT temps are with bypassing the HE on mine, with it blocked I noticed a slight increase in temps. Also I'm waiting for my Jabsco 29gpm pump to arrive, to see what difference an increase in flow with result in. I barely get any flow back into my IC tank compared to others I've seen. Most appear to have pretty turbulent flow in the tank. I'm pretty confident I have all the air removed from the system.
You have to get your A/C pressures just right for that new shell exchanger to work correctly. I switched over to the shell exchanger to prevent freeze damage in the event the customer ran low on antifreeze. I'm not going to use the shell exchanger anymore as you have to get everything perfect for it to work right.
Call me, and I'll switch you back to the plate exchanger. You just have to make sure you run enough antifreeze to prevent freezing.
-Joe
cobra_mer, as I mentioned in another post you have to get everything perfect for the shell exchangers to work correctly. Call me and I'll switch you out to the old style plate exchanger. You just have to make sure you run enough antifreeze to prevent freeze up in the event the IC pump stops working.
Thanks,
Joe
Joe,
Thanks for the offer but, I dont wanna exchange I am very pleased with the shell exchanger. As I said there are lots of variables I need to address before I can make an educated decision on what exactly is causing the issues. Just my findings so far with my car. I didnt and dont want it to seem if im trying to deter people from getting your product.
I will send you a PM and see if you can help trouble shoot my setup to get optimal output.
Interested in the Chiller, but I still haven't seen any feedback from Road Racers.
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