Exactly what I thought. You don't know what the tolerances of these engines are, you've never built one. That's enough for me to discredit your logic.
Synthetic Oils
- Thread starter NavStar
- Start date
Exactly what I thought. You don't know what the tolerances of these engines are, you've never built one. That's enough for me to discredit your logic.
:lol1:
Just keep using 5W-20, but only API SN certified lubricants please. Oh...and please use your car in 20-30 minute road racing sessions while using it. Oh....and please increase the performance of your engine by at least 100 HP.
Since you are so wise, and don't need anyone to educate you about what's really happening in your engine, and why those decisions were made. Just keep doing what you are doing. What happens in your engine no longer concerns me, what happens in everyone else on this forum does. You obviously have your mind made up that Ford knows everything and you take everything they say as gospel. Hmmm, maybe we should have a passage in the bible about 5W-20, better yet....a new commandment.
Thou shalt use only 5W-20
:lol:
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All this coming from a person with no hands on experience....:rollseyes
all this coming from a guy who hasn't been studying engine lubricants since 2004, and inspecting rod bearings that were inadequately lubricated.
Seriously, I have provided useful information in this thread, you have done nothing but troll. Add something useful to this thread, or move on.
I have hands on, what about me?
What about Scott Whitehead former Ford durability testing engineer guy?
He's got more credibility on this topic than any of us, are you saying he's full of crap too? Did you even bother reading up about him and his advice?
If you are driving like a grandpa at stock horsepower and you have already switched to a high quality synthetic, you probably will be fine with the 5W-20.
If you are running less than full synthetic and using 5W-20, then it's the next guy's problem who buys the car anyway... right?:nonono:
You can run what ever you want, but you should be a little more restrained about trying to discredit people who are attempting to shine the light on a KNOWN and verifiable 5W-20 engine longevity issue. We are doing it to help people and that it all.
I make the same pay whether people run 5W-20 or 5W-30, I have no reason to give wrong or false information.
I do not understand your motivation for so vehemently challenging assertions, that 5W-20 is significantly less than an optimal oil when used as a conventional or inexpensive synthetic blend in such a high powered engine application.:shrug:
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I built my first engine almost 17 years ago. I've torn them down, inspected them, rebuilt them, studied them....ect. How do you know that a specific oil weight alone caused the engine bearing wear? Whats your definition of inadequately lubricated?
I have never personally seen where it was a longevity issue. Should I believe what I see and feel with my own eyes and hands over something that I read over the internet?
I understand you have experience in running your cobra at track events, and apparently whatever you are using seems to be working for you, but I also understand you just got hired at RP and I am sure you have a lot to learn.
I am in no way claiming I am a guru at any of this. This is all just my personal opinion. Unleashed is the guy claiming to be the guru, but I just don't see where he has anything to back it up over John Doe.
What about the Scott Whitehead testimony?
His is the most compelling of all, did you get a chance to read up on his comments?:shrug:
I did a quick Google search on him, and I seen a lot of talk come up mentioning his name, but the only post I saw by him just referenced who he was and that he knew something, but he wouldn't go into details on the forum. Do you have a specific link?
You're lucky you even have that information. He's not allowed to talk about what he has seen or done at Ford (that could potentially undermine their financial decisions). Aren't disclosure agreements a bitch.
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It's a little slow in the tech department today so I had time to do some searching on Corner-Carvers.com for the original Scott Whitehead post regarding use of 5W20.
I finally found it, you will see this quoted all over the internet but not with the link to the actual thread and post. This is mainly because Corner-Carvers is somewhat restricted to member use and sometimes nonmembers have said they could not view info from links I had provided.
I hope this helps a little, at least you will hopefully understand why I am not a fan of 5W-20 oil unless it is mild street use and a very high quality Synthetic.
The thread: Oil ? for modular powered Mustang owners - Corner-Carvers Forums
The posts: Corner-Carvers Forums - View Single Post - Oil ? for modular powered Mustang owners
" I'm not going into details here, but I know I've talked to several people on this list before about this. Please do not put 5w-20 or less into a mod motor. Please."
Corner-Carvers Forums - View Single Post - Oil ? for modular powered Mustang owners
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmorrell
Unless you have some oil pressure and temperature data, this starts to become a "Yo dawgs, what's the bestest oil for my Cobra?" thread. No offense intended, but without data, that's where we might be headed.
"Gary-
I'm assuming you're not referring to my comments, or don't know my background? Are you aware that I spent about 10 years doing engine development with Ford Motor Company, including being the systems engineer on the 2003 Aviator and 2005 Mustang V8s?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chim-Chim
Would you recommend 5W-30, then? I have been running the Motorcraft 5W-20 synthetic blend.
"5W-30 is probably a good oil for the street with mixed temperatures, yes."
Quote:
Originally Posted by GT4Point6
?? Not sure what your saying. Are you saying to not run 5w-20 in the mod motors? I wouldn't run it any thinner but 5W20 is the spec oil from most Ford engines since 2001. If there is somehting wrong with it, I'm sure we would see a lot of people with motor problems. Mustangs, CVs, F150, F250-550 and what ever else the put the mod motors in and I'm just not seeing that on the Mustang and Truck forums.
"I think you'll understand that I can go into details here. And understand that I'm not saying that 5W-20 is not going to instantly do damage. But suffice it to say I've seen and been involved in a LOT of development on these motors, and my personal opinion is that I would never run 5W-20 in a modular motor. Regarding your "spec oil" comment, you need to look at what else governs this recommendation.
I apologize for not being a little more clear and forthcoming."
Corner-Carvers Forums
p=631515&postcount=19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bassen
Scott, does your 5W30 recommendation carry over to 5.4L 3V motors?
"Yes. I would not run 5W-20 in ANY stock mod motor. This is especially true in 4v motors, but applies to all of them in one form or another."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Houstonnw
I'm guessing that you meant to write "I cannot go into details here".
"You are correct. Sorry for the typo. Sometimes I think faster than I type."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Houstonnw
Steve Bassen asked about the 5.4L 3V motors and I'm interested in the 4.6L 3V motors. I understand that the variable valve timing is based on the engine tolerances and I would assume, the oil viscosity.
So if you were taking a 3V Mustang to track days, what oil would you use?
"My *PERSONAL RECOMMENDATION* would be to run a good fresh synthetic in the 5w-30 to 10W-40 range. And keep an eye on oil temps and oil pressure variations. The oil viscosity might slightly change the VCT's transient behaviors, but I wouldn't expect significant issues. I admit that I've never tested or seen testing relating to oils thicker than 10W-40, so I can't comment on that."
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbower
Scott: I would be very interested in why you think 5w-20 is a bit too thin for heavy use.
"Because I've seen the dyno testing. I've probably looked at several hundred engines disassembled and spread out on inspection tables. And I've been involved in testing to resolve issues where varying the oil viscosity was part of the test DOE. Trading a very small FE improvement in exchange for a large durability safety margin is not something I'm interested in doing."
__________________
There they are Jimmy, that's many of his posts I've read from him. You can see how he uses key words phrases:
and
and
Careful wording while never saying CAFE laws, business decisions, or anything that would put him in the crossfire.
and
and
Careful wording while never saying CAFE laws, business decisions, or anything that would put him in the crossfire.
You have to understand, that without specifics his post is unfortunately still nothing new. I agree that 5w30 would be ideal based on known information. I had a 2000 Lightning and was around for the "why does the 2001 now ask for 5w20" discussions.
My problem is that no one knows for sure the difference since only Ford and it's Non-disclosure employees have the stats. It could be negligible, it could be significant. I try to not be subscriber to opinions as science.
Ideally, based on Ford's recommendations in Australia, I think it would be best to run 5w20 until the warranty expires and then 5w30.
My problem is that no one knows for sure the difference since only Ford and it's Non-disclosure employees have the stats. It could be negligible, it could be significant. I try to not be subscriber to opinions as science.
Ideally, based on Ford's recommendations in Australia, I think it would be best to run 5w20 until the warranty expires and then 5w30.
Since 5W-20 is the "minimum" spec'd oil for the modular, why would you wait to increase the viscosity? Ford can't and WONT void your warranty for using 5W-30 or 10W-30. The inspection field rep would actually say, "Look...this guy is smart, despite what Ford recommends, he used what I would actually use if I drove this car." This is assuming they did an oil analysis.
Again, you mention Australia, they all use 5W-30 in the same tolerance engines.
Once again to clarify, I agree that 5w30 is probably the most ideal oil.
My concern is over people freaking out and possible voiding their warranties when in reality 5w20 is probably fine(not ideal) even with modified HP.
Are you sure about the warranty? I'll quote the manual.
"To protect your engine and engine’s warranty, use Motorcraft SAE
5W-20 or an equivalent SAE 5W-20 oil meeting Ford specification
WSS-M2C945-A. SAE 5W-20 oil provides optimum fuel economy and
durability performance meeting all requirements for your
vehicle’s engine. Refer to Maintenance product specifications and
capacities later in this chapter for more information.
Do not use supplemental engine oil additives, cleaners or other engine
treatments. They are unnecessary and could lead to engine damage that
is not covered by Ford warranty."
They don't say Motorcraft 5w20 or other oil meeting Ford spec, they specify 5w20 Ford spec. And honesty Ford's rep isn't the best right now for warranty and service.
Thoughts?
If an oil analysis were performed on an engine failure of a 5.0 engine, there would be minimal difference in a used oil test.
cSt@100*C (viscosity at operating temp) 5W-20 would be about 8.8 to 9.0, 5W-30 would be about 10.5 to 10.7
ZDDP - both fluids would be the same about 700-900 ppm depending on miles of use, assuming they are both API SN certified.
The only instance ZDDP would be higher is if a true synthetic were used, then ZDDP would be around 1000-1200 ppm, again depending on miles. Most top tier synthetics for street use formulate to older API SL specs. *Amsoil, Royal Purple, Red Line*
Neither altered spec would void your warranty, as they both exceed minimum specs.
cSt@100*C (viscosity at operating temp) 5W-20 would be about 8.8 to 9.0, 5W-30 would be about 10.5 to 10.7
ZDDP - both fluids would be the same about 700-900 ppm depending on miles of use, assuming they are both API SN certified.
The only instance ZDDP would be higher is if a true synthetic were used, then ZDDP would be around 1000-1200 ppm, again depending on miles. Most top tier synthetics for street use formulate to older API SL specs. *Amsoil, Royal Purple, Red Line*
Neither altered spec would void your warranty, as they both exceed minimum specs.
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Oh I agree on the oil anlysis, and I've seen how some brands can even test similar to others at different weights depending on amount of usage. My concern is more of what was on record, "used customer supplied 5w30" etc.
Maybe I'm just too untrusting with Ford. :kaboom:
We have some new Royal Purple HPS 5w30 and a Royal Purple filter ready to go into the SVTP 2012 GT.
jayman33
New Member
What about Castrol? Whats your opinion on them?
Most of their formulations are group III base stocks "hydrocracked - highly refined petroleum" Not a true synthetic.
Castrol began the fake synthetics being called "synthetic" bang wagon in the 1990's.
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