Religion vs Science debate: bring it in here

James Snover

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1.) you had a bad experience with the medical community. That is not necessarily a reflection on the state of science. Glad you brother is doing well.

2.)No, inflation theory does not throw out any estimate of the age of the universe. Study up a bit more on the subject.

3.) contradictions and constant changing are annoying. Yep. You can't blindly adhere to anything in science. Everything is up for debate and further observation and revision based on new discoveries and new information. But you can't just toss something up and call it a theory. You have to have some body of work to justify your position, and your theory has to make certain predictions, and these need to be verifiable and falsifiable. And you need to get it out there, and let others review it, and make their attempts at proving you completely wrong; and if you are, you have to go back to the beginning.

4.) Telling an evolutionary scientist that "evolution is just a theory." If you are just saying that, and don't have any body of work that has been through the meat grinder of peer review to prove him wrong, guess what? He's not likely to say, "hey, you're right! I should have studied accounting like Mom said!" No, more than likely, the scientist has a body of work extending for decades to support his position. And you do not.

5.) "You had to be there for billions of years, or otherwise you can't say anything is billions of years old." THAT one deserves a thread all of its own.

I dont mind science one bit. The problem is when science starts speaking factually when it isnt factual.

My mom had some of the best doctors in the world at the Houston Medical center tell her that there was 100% chance one of my brothers would die in the womb and that she should abort him. He's 26, married with a 4 year degree....to this day they are still baffled.

Science wants to say the universe is 13.8 billion years old and then throw in rapid inflation theory which blows any age estimations out of the water.

Its the contradictions and constant changing that are annoying...and it wouldnt be so bad if they didnt act like things were so accurate and factual.

Tell a scientist its a "theory" of evolution and they flip out "no, its not a theory, we have proof!" Just like wurd2 cant accept that dating methods are mere guesses because he didnt see anything age billions of years to 100% confirm it is that age. Just say "hey, its what we know currently"...instead he goes on and on about how its fact. no it isnt.

Thats my pet peeve with science.
 

TheCPE

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and yet you have just as much absolute faith the bible is fake and false.

takes as much faith to believe it is true as it is to believe it isnt true.

:bash:

When I shake my head in disbelief at the dogma and absurdity of religious assertions I am not substituting my own absurd claims, I'm merely ignoring the unfounded ideas you are pushing.
 

James Snover

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So you're saying that over the millennia humans existed before the Bible came along, no one noticed that circumcision before or after eight days was not necessarily a good idea? Even before the old testament, there were doctors. People learned stuff.

Average lifespan of a human? In all the time before the Old testament, no one noticed a year was about 365 days long? No one had invented multiplication and division? No one ever thought, "gee Uncle Bob lived to be 100 years old. Let's see, multiply 100 times 365 = 36,500 days!"

LONG before the Old testament humans had some pretty advanced mathematics worked out.

My favorite is circumcision on the 8th day...which happens to be when blood clotting in a human is at its highest capability in the entire life time.

no science and the bible just got that correct? ~30,000 days in an average life span and with no science they got it right the first try...only the creator telling them so is plausible.
 

65fastback2+2

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:bash:

When I shake my head in disbelief at the dogma and absurdity of religious assertions I am not substituting my own absurd claims, I'm merely ignoring the unfounded ideas you are pushing.

same as i ignore the idea everything came from nothing on its own

Ok... well my bible says your bible is wrong. Which one is right, and why?

Faith?

this is easy....read it.

Lets take the koran...in it it says

"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all). (Ali's version of the Koran, Quran, 4:34)

does that sound like something God would approve of? Wife beating?

No, this is what God would approve of

Ephesians 5

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body.


there is a DRASTIC and stark contrast to what the Lord wants vs. what other "bibles" say.
 

wurd2

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Will creationists ever grasp that a scientific theory is greater than a scientific fact?

:shrug:

.
 

James Snover

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Seriously, you can look at the moon, in all its phases, and not see a sphere? Others long before you came along did.

when you look at a sphere from above (as exactly the scripture says) it does indeed look like a disc.

earth%20from%20space.gif


looks like a disc to me
 

65fastback2+2

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Average lifespan of a human? In all the time before the Old testament, no one noticed a year was about 365 days long? No one had invented multiplication and division? No one ever thought, "gee Uncle Bob lived to be 100 years old. Let's see, multiply 100 times 365 = 36,500 days!"

LONG before the Old testament humans had some pretty advanced mathematics worked out.

i think you misread what i intended. That out of 30,000 days of an average human lifespan, the bible picked day 8 and now science is able to tell us why that is the best day.

didnt mean to send you off into a math tirade. :beer:
 

65fastback2+2

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Seriously, you can look at the moon, in all its phases, and not see a sphere? Others long before you came along did.

Certainly I can...but what does the moon have to do with what I am on? The sun looks like a disc to me. So I have visual proof of a disc and a sphere...so how do I guess which i am on? (assuming I am thousands of years ago with no instruments)
 

TheCPE

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same as i ignore the idea everything came from nothing on its own

Neither your ignorance nor mankind's ignorance is positive evidence of bronze age mysticism.

there is a DRASTIC and stark contrast to what the Lord wants vs. what other "bibles" say.

So the entirety of your bible is righteous and contains no questionable ideas?
 

Zentenk

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What was Mary? 14 years old? God raped another man's 14 year old wife! He made a deal with the devil to screw with Job. He promised Abraham tons of land/animals to sacrifice his SON, then gave him a lamb when he was on his way to do the deed. He told Adam and Eve to not break his rule of eating a fruit when they had no knowledge of right from wrong (some all powerful God), and don't forget a snake SPOKE! Also, Moses is a stupid piece of shit... he has the first 10 commandments and breaks them in rage and has about 3k people slain, he later comes back with another set that says, "thou shall not murder/kill". F that guy! Noah? Seriously?

You want to know who is a God? Kim Jong Un and his father/grandfather. God hasn't stopped North Korea in 60 years and he never will, he can't cross the DMZ to heal or feed anyone. You can pray for 1000 years and unless WE the mortals do something about it, nothing will change. When a surgeon worked on a N. Korean woman/man's eyes they praised Kim Jong Il, the same REASON YOU THANK GOD YOU FIND YOUR FN CAR KEYS! You are brain washed JUST the same as North Koreans. STFU and good day.
 
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James Snover

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I can see how you would take it that way, when I re-read what I wrote.

What I should have said is "the original central message of all Holy books is to teach us how to live a good life and prepare for the next life." And the reason I state it that way is because all the books have been changed, mis-translated, etc. to the point that if they ever were meant to be taken 100% literally, we can't be sure of that now. But the one thing that does stand out (to me anyway) in most of the Holy books is, to summarize: "be a good guy."

This is contrary to your opening premise.
 

IronSnake

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In olden times where people were centralized into small groups, communication was at an all time low, and the educated made up for only a very small percentage of the population its easy to see why they would invent a divine creator. Mass control through religious authority is pretty easy. I see its purpose and its comfort it provides, but beyond that it's done very little good. More wars have been started and more people have been killed in the name of it than anything else. You don't see a mad bomber scientist or a man mass murdering in the name of quantum physics.
 

TheCPE

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That out of 30,000 days of an average human lifespan, the bible picked day 8 and now science is able to tell us why that is the best day.

So you marvel in the bible's choice in circumcision day as proof of it's transcendence but don't equally question why and how an omnipotent being couldn't come up with better commandments, instruct people not to own other people instead of how to, not teach human sacrifice, not champion genocide, etc etc.

Right...
 

James Snover

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Once again: science and history existed _long_ before Jehovah came on the scene. people learned stuff, people created mathematics (the first science), and people performed simple experiments that showed the Earth to be a sphere and what size that sphere was.

Well, He did create man correctly. Which is the funny irony in your post.

He only gave man one law. They were free to do w/e else. But they decided to not listen, sin and be punished.



The probability that the 40 or so writers of the bible got scientifical/medical facts, historical and geographical facts correct across the entire bible is astronomical. Esp given they had little science and historical record to go by.
 

James Snover

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Name one church, one denomination, of any religion, that was not at one point corrupted to suit someone's personal biases, beliefs or schemes for power and control.

Everything humans do gets messed up. Do you throw out everything just because one asshole came in and tried to run it to suit his own wishes?

The catholic church is a giant scheme and full of lies and falsehoods. They countlessly did things in history to maintain power and control. That is all the catholic church is about. As well as several other "churches".

Real, biblical churches are run on biblical commandments and examples, of which these fake churches (like the catholic church) do not run.
 

Rainmaker

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Not my words:

"Any unbiased document scholar will agree that the Bible has been remarkably well-preserved over the centuries. Copies of the Bible dating to the 14th century A.D. are nearly identical in content to copies from the 3rd century A.D. When the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered, scholars were shocked to see how similar they were to other ancient copies of the Old Testament, even though the Dead Sea Scrolls were hundreds of years older than anything previously discovered. Even many hardened skeptics and critics of the Bible admit that the Bible has been transmitted over the centuries far more accurately than any other ancient document.

There is absolutely no evidence that the Bible has been revised, edited, or tampered with in any systematic manner. The sheer volume of biblical manuscripts makes it simple to recognize any attempts to distort God’s Word. There is no major doctrine of the Bible that is put in doubt as a result of the minor differences that exist between manuscripts."
 

Rainmaker

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Name one church, one denomination, of any religion, that was not at one point corrupted to suit someone's personal biases, beliefs or schemes for power and control.

Everything humans do gets messed up. Do you throw out everything just because one asshole came in and tried to run it to suit his own wishes?

Of course humans are imperfect. Why God loves us is beyond me.

Remember, James - it was the 'Religious' folks who murdered Jesus on the cross. The message Jesus completely denounced Religion and Religious systems. Pure truth is nondenominational.
 

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