Religion vs Science debate: bring it in here

paynecasey

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I dont mind science one bit. The problem is when science starts speaking factually when it isnt factual.

My mom had some of the best doctors in the world at the Houston Medical center tell her that there was 100% chance one of my brothers would die in the womb and that she should abort him. He's 26, married with a 4 year degree....to this day they are still baffled.

Science wants to say the universe is 13.8 billion years old and then throw in rapid inflation theory which blows any age estimations out of the water.

Its the contradictions and constant changing that are annoying...and it wouldnt be so bad if they didnt act like things were so accurate and factual.

Tell a scientist its a "theory" of evolution and they flip out "no, its not a theory, we have proof!" Just like wurd2 cant accept that dating methods are mere guesses because he didnt see anything age billions of years to 100% confirm it is that age. Just say "hey, its what we know currently"...instead he goes on and on about how its fact. no it isnt.

Thats my pet peeve with science.

My thoughts exactly.
 

James Snover

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I do apply the scientific method to my faith. Based on math alone, I don't accept the premise that any Holy book is meant to be taken 100% verbatim because random inaccuracies alone, regardless of all other considerations, demand the conclusion that those books have been changed over the millennia as humans translated them, copied them, re-wrote them, etc. Based on my own studies, my conclusion is that the important thing to take away from the Holy books is: "Don't be a dickhead."

I said I have no proof that God exists, only that I believe it to be the case. If I find proof he doesn't, I'll revise my conclusion.

What other things do I believe outside of religion without evidence? Justice, the inherent goodness of mankind, law, honest government, love, that we should spend some of our time on Earth trying to learn more about the way the universe works. I know they're out there, but they're awful hard to prove.

Yes, not all Bronze-Age ideals were good. So we discarded the ones that aren't good. We have adopted other ideals that are better. Will we ever be perfect? Not a chance. Is the progress we're making fast enough? Nope. But (most) modern U.S. citizens now believe it is wrong to own another person as property. Whereas in the Bronze Age, the question was, "what's the right way to obtain a slave?"

Why did an infallible, omniscient, omnipotent God make such a flawed creation as mankind? I do not know. Still looking for an answer on that one.

As a self proclaimed enthusiast of the scientific method why is religion an area where you don't apply the same scrutiny of empiricism you yourself assert is so full of merit.

What other things do you believe outside of religion without evidence?



Modern man has done well to cherry pick so that we don't still abide by all of the disgusting bronze age ideas like knowing the correct ways to own other people.

It is curious that an omnipotent and omniscient being wasn't able to infallibly direct man to create transcendent scripture and that in order to actually behave morally we mere humans have had to figure it out for ourselves and disregard many of the celestial suggestions.
 

Zentenk

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My God doesn't give a flying crap about any of us and laughs his ass off at all this religious BS, so he doesn't care who joins him in the "afterlife". You actually think God would show favortism to nutswingers? SERIOUSLY? When you get to the "afterlife", there wouldn't be streets lined with gold, he wouldn't have that trash laying around, it is WORTHLESS to him and anyone in the "afterlife".

On another note, angels don't have wings, why would they need them? That is stupid as hell, why would God make an error in giving angels wings to "fly" on NOTHING. Heck, he had 4 beasts that constantly praise him by his throne with like 6 pairs of wings and they are covered in eyes for no reason. What a complete IDIOT! I guess he did it for the hell of it.

You all just read fairy tales written by long dead mortals, and I am glad more and more people are realising this and moving away from religion. You cannot pray for anything and get that one thing without acting in the physical realm for it. You can have twin boys, one goes to practice and plays basketball for his whole life growing up without going to church, the other one you pray with the WHOLE congregation if you like, for him to make it into the NBA yet he never picks up a basketball... tell me who has a better chance of getting in. The one with the POWER OF GOD behind him or HARD FN WORK! A surgeon saved your life, you can only thank HIM for all his hard work and training in the medical field, God did JACK to help you.
 

James Snover

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You agree the Bible has changed. So isn't it possible that those figures got edited over the ages?

But no, my contention is that these people weren't just "guessing" this stuff. That they in fact knew a lot if it from prior experience. The people writing the Bible were literate in an era in which literacy was a rare thing. Just by being able to write at all, they are shown to be scholars of their times. You don't get to be a scholar without having learned a thing or two.

What do you do for a living? If someone asks you a question based on your area of expertise, is your answer a guess? Or is it the product of what you have learned?

while true...you admit that it changed multiple times....it just so happens the ones written in the bible were the accurate ones? by pure chance?

I couldnt make guesses 100% accurate...much less put me and 39 people together.
 

James Snover

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It doesn't take much to set me off on a math tirade, I admit.

I'm saying the Bible didn't "pick" the eighth day, I'm saying the writer of that book knew that the eighth day was the day to go for based on their experience and learning.

i think you misread what i intended. That out of 30,000 days of an average human lifespan, the bible picked day 8 and now science is able to tell us why that is the best day.

didnt mean to send you off into a math tirade. :beer:
 

James Snover

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If you have the math, a stick and some string and a helper or two, you can determine the shape and size of the Earth. Students recreate the same experiment with the same method to this day. You do not need electronic instruments or precision optics.

So having visually observed the moon is a sphere, and having now mathematically derived the conclusion that the Earth, too, is a sphere, you can look at the sun and draw the conclusion that it, too, is probably a sphere. You now have a working theory that celestial bodies are spheres, and you have a body of work to show to those who doubt you.

Certainly I can...but what does the moon have to do with what I am on? The sun looks like a disc to me. So I have visual proof of a disc and a sphere...so how do I guess which i am on? (assuming I am thousands of years ago with no instruments)
 

James Snover

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One example of a change in the Bible: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." Recently it was learned that a better translation of that phrase would be "Thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live." Slight change, big difference. Still 99% accurate.

Then there is the "Naughty Bible." The word "not" was left out of the commandment "Thou shalt not commit adultery." A couple of thousand copies of it were printed before anyone caught the error. It was 99.99% accurate. Just that one word was omitted, and it has been determined that it was just an accident by the guy operating the printing press, with no ill-intent.

Not my words:

"Any unbiased document scholar will agree that the Bible has been remarkably well-preserved over the centuries. Copies of the Bible dating to the 14th century A.D. are nearly identical in content to copies from the 3rd century A.D. When the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered, scholars were shocked to see how similar they were to other ancient copies of the Old Testament, even though the Dead Sea Scrolls were hundreds of years older than anything previously discovered. Even many hardened skeptics and critics of the Bible admit that the Bible has been transmitted over the centuries far more accurately than any other ancient document.

There is absolutely no evidence that the Bible has been revised, edited, or tampered with in any systematic manner. The sheer volume of biblical manuscripts makes it simple to recognize any attempts to distort God’s Word. There is no major doctrine of the Bible that is put in doubt as a result of the minor differences that exist between manuscripts."
 

1badsilversvt

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My God doesn't give a flying crap about any of us and laughs his ass off at all this religious BS, so he doesn't care who joins him in the "afterlife". You actually think God would show favortism to nutswingers? SERIOUSLY? When you get to the "afterlife", there wouldn't be streets lined with gold, he wouldn't have that trash laying around, it is WORTHLESS to him and anyone in the "afterlife".

On another note, angels don't have wings, why would they need them? That is stupid as hell, why would God make an error in giving angels wings to "fly" on NOTHING. Heck, he had 4 beasts that constantly praise him by his throne with like 6 pairs of wings and they are covered in eyes for no reason. What a complete IDIOT! I guess he did it for the hell of it.

You all just read fairy tales written by long dead mortals, and I am glad more and more people are realising this and moving away from religion. You cannot pray for anything and get that one thing without acting in the physical realm for it. You can have twin boys, one goes to practice and plays basketball for his whole life growing up without going to church, the other one you pray with the WHOLE congregation if you like, for him to make it into the NBA yet he never picks up a basketball... tell me who has a better chance of getting in. The one with the POWER OF GOD behind him or HARD FN WORK! A surgeon saved your life, you can only thank HIM for all his hard work and training in the medical field, God did JACK to help you.

Jesus loves you
 

1badsilversvt

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When every one can prove that Jesus didn't exist, I'll listen, until then, he's my king...



































































































And even if someone does show proof he didn't exist, HE'S STILL MY KING
 

wurd2

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1badsilversvt said:
When every one can prove that Jesus didn't exist, I'll listen, until then, he's my king...And even if someone does show proof he didn't exist, HE'S STILL MY KING

In other words, you'll continue believing something even in the face of counterevidence.

Enjoy your dogma.

.
 

neatofrito1618

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Why exactly do Christians capitalize the words "He" and "Him"? Is the big guy in the sky somehow immune from proper grammar?
 

RDJ

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We may not be able to show physical proof that the bible is true, but neither can you show that its not true
this is not quite accurate. we are not able to show physical proof that the religious tennants are true. there is ample evidence that the bible as a history book is certainly true. not necessarily every facet of it but enough to show that by and large the history is fairly accurate.

I do not understand how faith, especially absolute faith is considered a virtue. Faith is always championed by religious people and I simply don't get it. Absolute faith is irrational and dangerous.
this is where the religious realists separate themselves from the so called gawd squad. faith is not accepting everything without question. Faith requires you to question to continually seek answers.

So the entirety of your bible is righteous and contains no questionable ideas?
the bible certainly contains metaphore and ideas that are absurd when taken literally. righteous faith helps one discerne what is litteral and what is metaphor IMHO. the gawd sqaud will now proceed to tell me how I am wrong and the bible is 100% litteral and God now hates me.

There is absolutely no evidence that the Bible has been revised, edited, or tampered with in any systematic manner. The sheer volume of biblical manuscripts makes it simple to recognize any attempts to distort God’s Word. There is no major doctrine of the Bible that is put in doubt as a result of the minor differences that exist between manuscripts."
the first part of your post I generally agree with. This part not so much. there are HUGE differences between modern day "translations" of the bible. and there are dozens if not hundreds of books that were determined by a bunch of catholic clowns that left a bunch of stuff on the floor. some of it was left on the floor because it contradicted catholic dogma and for no other reason.

the 'bible' did not exist as a single book until after the catholics got hold of it. until then it was a series of writings by different people which religions and people gave creedence to.
 

wurd2

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Rainmaker said:
There is absolutely no evidence that the Bible has been revised, edited, or tampered with in any systematic manner.

The reality of language translation alone implies otherwise.

.
 

slidai

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440sprint

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GOD, IMO

The concept of God, Gods, was invented by early humans in order to help understand themselves. Science did not exist, but humans seemed to be able to create more humans, fire, tools, etc. Every amazing thing in life, therefore, must have been created somehow!

The ultimate existence concept had to be a supreme being, or "creator". God is just One of many human words for "creator"! Everything that early humans observed (life, earth, fire, heavens, etc.) seemed to need a supreme creator to answer newly minted human minds' questions. Mere humans could not have created it all, especially themselves. The powers that be would, and still do, give their answers, usually to their selfish advantage.

Well, science has come a long way now to show that everything can only be composed of its various parts. In other words, everything is what creates it! We humans are are actually the presently known supreme creators (Gods). There could and should be greater lifeform creators elsewhere in the universe.

Everything that humans say, write, build, etc., are human made only, inspired and brought about by actual humans with no supreme being involved other than amazing human speculation about the many things that still control us.

As the Greeks once brilliantly said, "know yourself". All that we know about others is what we know about ourselves. The things that we like about others are the things that we like about ourselves. The things that we dislike about others are the things that we dislike about ourselves! We can only perceive what we are thinking at any instant. The only thing constant is change, therefore the only thing really important is everything, in order to be prepared for the constant unpredictable changes!
 

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