Fuel Pump Failure FYI:

[CPRsm]

The fuel pump in a Flex Fuel 5.0 F150 is NOT the same as a 5.0 Mustang.

See fuel pumps below. The hat assembly is out of a 2013 FFV 5.0 F150 and the pump sitting next to it is a 5.0 Mustang. Clearly these are not the same pumps.

I don't think that means they are different or won't work. It wouldn't surprise me if they were infact the same pump w a different plastic cap for volume increase. Large manufacturers cut cost where they can. Be a perfect place to do it. Run the same pump in muliptle platforms and only need small change. That's what I'm doing w the '15's. hold my sack tight and pray and can reuse some of my old coyote kit lol

 

[PIKE5.0]

Glad I chose the guy I did to trust with my car! Obviously knows before he speaks!

 

[Shaun@AED]

The fuel pump in a Flex Fuel 5.0 F150 is NOT the same as a 5.0 Mustang.

See fuel pumps below. The hat assembly is out of a 2013 FFV 5.0 F150 and the pump sitting next to it is a 5.0 Mustang. Clearly these are not the same pumps.

Re-read my post. I said same 'material'. IE manufactured the same.
We are talking about large volume OE suppliers here.

Again, no all-motor Coyote E85 fuel pump failures.

 

[Aaron@JPCRacing]

Re-read my post. I said same 'material'. IE manufactured the same.
We are talking about large volume OE suppliers here.

Again, no all-motor Coyote E85 fuel pump failures.

I read it pretty clearly. I'm not arguing that the fuel systems are built with mostly the same components. They infact are. But the lines/rails/filters isnt what were having an issue with.

The only difference between the FFV and the Mustang are the fuel pumps. They're clearly different as can be seen in the picture (which is my desk, I've actually got both ). You're simply assuming that since they may have been built in the same factory that may contain the same components.

I don't think that means they are different or won't work. It wouldn't surprise me if they were infact the same pump w a different plastic cap for volume increase. Large manufacturers cut cost where they can. Be a perfect place to do it. Run the same pump in muliptle platforms and only need small change. That's what I'm doing w the '15's. hold my sack tight and pray and can reuse some of my old coyote kit lol

Assuming they're the same pump is like saying the 465 and the 400 are the same pump with a different top. :rolling:

I'm not saying that every car with E85 will fail. I just want people to be aware that these cars are not FFV's and a fail is possible.

 

[CPRsm]

Assuming they're the same pump is like saying the 465 and the 400 are the same pump with a different top. :rolling:

the 465 and 400 are different case sizes though right? They're both turbine pumps iirc. But smack a larger nipple on a 465 and it's still a 465, just a different part number for a different application. I have no idea. I just wouldn't put it past Ford to pinch pennies wisely like that.

I'm not saying that every car with E85 will fail. I just want people to be aware that these cars are not FFV's and a fail is possible.

Sure any will fail. I'm just not convinced it's the fuel that's doing it yet. Older pumps would gum up on older cars when they switched from gas. That was understandable. But everything I've seen fail to date has had a bap. Nothing just E85 on a 12v system.

 

[Shaun@AED]

The only difference between the FFV and the Mustang are the fuel pumps. They're clearly different as can be seen in the picture (which is my desk, I've actually got both ). You're simply assuming that since they may have been built in the same factory that may contain the same components.

"The only difference between the FFV and the Mustang are the fuel pumps"
Using your argument against you, 'Clearly' the hats are different as are the fuel tanks. An F150 does not have the same fuel tank as a mustang, nor does it have the same hat.

And you are assuming the GT pumps as not Ethanol compatible.

 

[corysmach1]

:rolling:

Ok good. Hope mine lasts.

 

[agrant]

I wanted to inform the community about a fuel pump failure we ran into this last weekend on the dyno.

2013 A6 TVS on E85 and Gasoline (car dipped into the 9's previously).
4100 miles, mostly street. Around 2 dozen 1/4 mile passes.

I was re-tuning on a larger pulley and gasoline to drop power down for street use now that the car had run single digits. 4 runs in and everything was fine. 5th run we ran out of fuel at 7200, 6th run ran out of fuel at 6K.
We checked the voltage at the fuel pump (volt meter on the harness under the back seat while making a dyno run) and saw a steady 18.5 volts (JMS BAP at 70%). This verified the BAP was working properly.

Car still drove and ran fine, but the fuel pump is going out and could no longer support 600RW SAE on gasoline with 18.5 volts.

We are not sure if this is an isolated issue or not as this car exhibited fuel delivery issues previously on E85 at the drag strip. We'd originally had the JMS BAP at 21 volts. Dropping it down to 19.5 (75% on the dial) resolved the fueling issue at the time. We are still not sure if it was pump cavitation or something else.

Just an FYI to all.
At this point we are unsure if it's a 'faulty' factory pump, or if it was taken out from head pressure, voltage, or some other cause.

On your fuel pump failure, what signs are obvious? Did you hear valve train rattle during failure?

 

[Shaun@AED]

On your fuel pump failure, what signs are obvious? Did you hear valve train rattle during failure?

It was NOT obvious. Only the data log and wideband readings showed me what was going on, and that is the scary part.

 

[corysmach1]

I wouldn't worry Cory, I have been on e85 on my daily driver for 30K+ miles and a lot of passes. A shoe box full of timeslips to be exact. No issues here, but I also refuse to put a boost a pump on my fuel system. I also spin my car 7700+ on motor, I need more fuel for what I want to do, but I am going to do a fuel system instead.

Ok good makes me feel better! Thanks man.

 

[Blazer707@TBR]

Ok good makes me feel better! Thanks man.

You will be fine, I ran about 6k miles of E85 through my car and didn't skip a beat. Never added any E85 conditioner and didn't switch back to gas until I had too.

 

[me32]

I've said this in every post where people ask about 85. According to Ford engineering e85 will kill the mustang fuel system . They won't give a time frame or what will go first but it will kill it. If you plan to run e85 do it right and swap the parts . Thank you Shaun for bringing this to light

What ford engineer stated that E85 kills pumps? Ive never heard it. Sounds like your stating your opinion

 

[corysmach1]

You will be fine, I ran about 6k miles of E85 through my car and didn't skip a beat. Never added any E85 conditioner and didn't switch back to gas until I had too.

Thanks man i hope your right. Hopefully us NA guys will be ok I run E85 full time.

 

[dead man walkin]

Me 32. I never said kills pumps.. I said kills fuel system. I started my career in the automotive engineering field. When I have a question I call my friends who are still in it.. simply put the fuel system parts are purchased items. When sourced from the vendor the parts were not engineered to be e85 safe. It was never a requirement from the start, so did the vendor use e85 safe materials? Is the filter e85 safe? It apparent it's not sized for it. Look at the forward thinking put into the mustang. If it was as easy as a tune and injectors to run our cars to 100,000 miles on e85 and gain 30 horse don't you think ford would have that kit? E85 can be impressive. But do it right.

 

[PIKE5.0]

Seen a couple people say something like " thanks Shaun for bringing E85 pump failures to light".. Read dudes, not what he said. And it's the work load, not fuel elements correct?

Guess the uneducated naysayers can just miss the benefits of it

 

[poof100]

"hey, let's make 700hp, it will be fun. But let's use the stock pump and overload it with more voltage to get it hotter while running a fuel that doesn't cool the pump. Yeah, that should work, no problem." :rollseyes:shrug:

 

[burke985]

 

[nonliberal]

"hey, let's make 700hp, it will be fun. But let's use the stock pump and overload it with more voltage to get it hotter while running a fuel that doesn't cool the pump. Yeah, that should work, no problem." :rollseyes:shrug:

It seemed to since I never had a problem. :shrug: I will never know how much longer it would last though since I am changing my setup to double 465s for more boost this spring.

Also it probably cools the pump better than gasoline does, it just doesn't lubricate.

 

[Shaun@AED]

"hey, let's make 700hp, it will be fun. But let's use the stock pump and overload it with more voltage to get it hotter while running a fuel that doesn't cool the pump. Yeah, that should work, no problem." :rollseyes:shrug:

Ding ding ding!

More volts + same system restrictions = hotter pumps
Although I'm not sure why Ethanol would not cool the pumps like gasoline.

Pump Cavatation may also be a factor, but that is far more difficult to diagnose.
It is what we have suspected with the car in question. We *cured* the initial fuel starvation issue by reducing voltage from 21 to 19.5.

 

[Ill_W1N]

Guess I'll be going back to pump gas until this is figured out.