Bringing the 4lb Caged lower back from the Dead?

[MalcolmV8]

Interested as well.

Malcolm, yours is the first Ive read of tearing up the bushings that quickly. Guessing you are running a manual tensioner?

OP I saw you used some heat to get the 14mm hex out of the pulley once the cage assembly is out? Then impact? I tried like a mofo to get mine out and replace the bushings but couldn't get it.

Stock tensioner. That 2.9 puts a heck of a lot of strain on the lower. It was no coincidence either, did it to both lowers I put on.

Your lower may be like mine. The threads got bonded somehow. Not sure if it was corrosion or simply the torture of the 2.9 but I used a breaker bar with a 6 foot cheater bar, lots of heat and destroyed multiple breaker bars and sockets. Thank goodness for lifetime warranty tools because I broke at least 5 breaker bars and sockets before finally getting it loose and when I did the top half of the threads sheered off as they were either corroded or something. The bottom half of the threads are OK but that does me no good.

 

[MG0h3]

Stock tensioner. That 2.9 puts a heck of a lot of strain on the lower. It was no coincidence either, did it to both lowers I put on.

Your lower may be like mine. The threads got bonded somehow. Not sure if it was corrosion or simply the torture of the 2.9 but I used a breaker bar with a 6 foot cheater bar, lots of heat and destroyed multiple breaker bars and sockets. Thank goodness for lifetime warranty tools because I broke at least 5 breaker bars and sockets before finally getting it loose and when I did the top half of the threads sheered off as they were either corroded or something. The bottom half of the threads are OK but that does me no good.

WTF!

Thats why I stopped. My bushings arent too bad at all as I could only move the try bar back and forth a hair.

 

[MalcolmV8]

WTF!

Thats why I stopped. My bushings arent too bad at all as I could only move the try bar back and forth a hair.

It was ridiculous but my bushings were already trashed so I just said F it and went for it haha. I had to weld up a big jig to even hold it that hard and attached to my kids basketball goal outside. It was quite the operation. Breaker bar with full force of a 6' cheater bar and then my buddy nailing it with a BFH till we finally got it loose. Oh and the outer ring piece was on the verge of glowing red we had so much heat on it. Those threads were just bonded to heck. Only the top half which was weird.

 

[MG0h3]

Ya Im concerned that I might destroy something trying to disassemble it and then need to find a used cage setup just to install this pulley.

Tough call...Ive seen a few people that have been running a Metco with the 2.9 for several years and no problems.

 

[cj428mach]

Is it worth shopping around with different machine shops? Sounds to me like they're very much on the high side of things. I wonder if a fellow enthusiast like Cobra Engineering would be interested in something like this. Have you asked James?

I assume the local machinists of the Cobra community are aware of our situation and since no one has tried taking this on that its not going to happen. If someone wants to try to get Cobra Engineering to take this on that would be great.

This shop is top of the line and there is expense involved with dealing with the best but honestly its the only machine shop in my town that can even take on something like this. Wichita probably has quite a few shops but I don't have time to drive around to all of them to ask about it. Also if I was to have extras made for others I want a place I know will produce a top notch product.

I believe the pulleys actually cost very little for them to make, its just all that design cost has to be broken up over the total production run. That means each pulley added to the order takes a chunk out of it. The guy has emphasized that once that design cost is ate up they'll become much more affordable.


MG0h3-
Are you sure you're going the correct direction? If you're using the 14mm hex then you need to be going counter clockwise.

Did you use heat? I tried taking one apart with a 1" impact with no heat and it didn't budge. I was trying not to use heat on the one i was using as it discolors the finish. Less than a minute with the torch heating the tri-bar and my 1/2" impact zipped it apart.

cozmo2806 says he's disassembled 3 successfully for his caged lower project.

 

[MalcolmV8]

Yeah I know the feeling. I'm on my third stock lower

I've considered the uncaged Metco a lot myself but it seems for everyone running it without a problem I seem to find one that failed. Oil pump gears explode from crank deflection seems the more common failure.

 

[MG0h3]

CJ-I didnt try the heat as I didnt have a bearing ahead of time and didnt want to cook it. I also need to find a matco truck and try and warranty my impact.

In a nutshell, I wasnt prepared.

 

[MalcolmV8]

Mike, good point on the left hand thread for those that don't know. That center thread is left hand thread just as is the thread where the pulley threads to the balancer.

 

[cozmo2806]

If anyone wants to send me theirs for disassembly I'll be more than willing to do it. I have a jig make to take them apart.

 

[cozmo2806]

Double post

 

[MG0h3]

CJ, I just read the quote and associated thread and unless Im not understanding correctly, that person is saying having/not having the cage isnt the big issue. Its running a cog or super tight belt tension so that there is no slip.

Or am I misinterpreting it?

 

[Mat Swartz]

I am in the process of changing my alternator and noticed my 03 has what appears to be a 4 lb lower and a 2.9 upper. Have had no issues but the car only has 23,500 miles on it.
What should I be looking for to make sure I have no issues? How do I check the condition of the current setup?
I understand the cage is to keep things from being shredded if something breaks, Correct?

The car is running fine, the alternator didn't have a larger pulley so I plan to add a 3.2" Metco. I do have a 3.5" but from what I have read that would be too large for my setup. Any advise would be great.

 

[cj428mach]

CJ, I just read the quote and associated thread and unless Im not understanding correctly, that person is saying having/not having the cage isnt the big issue. Its running a cog or super tight belt tension so that there is no slip.

Or am I misinterpreting it?

That is correct, Ed is saying you need some way to relieve the shock associated with the rapidly changing forces.

Belt slip is one way, but the rubber bushings inside the caged lower is also another. There is a reason the bushings get beaten out on these things as they're taking the abuse. If you were to go with a non caged lower you lose that shock absorption.

There is also a reason you're having trouble getting your lower apart, just imagine 10+ years of someone beating your lower together.

 

[MalcolmV8]

CJ, I just read the quote and associated thread and unless Im not understanding correctly, that person is saying having/not having the cage isnt the big issue. Its running a cog or super tight belt tension so that there is no slip.

I don't agree with that if that is indeed what was said. If you look at the caged setup its more than just rubber bushings to absorb shock load or vibration. The caged lower pulley actually runs on the caged piece on a bearing and not on the crank shaft. A shaft then runs through the center of that lower pulley from the balancer behind it to transfer power to it or turn it. Essentially that lower pulley is unable to put any side loads on the crankshaft at all.

Once people delete that setup and have a pulley running directly off the balancer then sideways load of the serpentine belt now pulls on the crankshaft and supposably that flex is what causes oil pump gears to break. In extreme cases where the crank snout snaps I guess your guess is as good as mine as to what exactly did it.

Personally I'm not fully buying the whole speed up and slow down theory myself. I mean what do you think happens on the other end of the crank when people wrap up 5k RPMs and dump their clutch? That's heck of a lot more shock load or speed up / down than revving the engine with the supercharger. Just my thoughts.

 

[cj428mach]

Personally I'm not fully buying the whole speed up and slow down theory myself. I mean what do you think happens on the other end of the crank when people wrap up 5k RPMs and dump their clutch? That's heck of a lot more shock load or speed up / down than revving the engine with the supercharger. Just my thoughts.

Then how come 3.4l and 4.0l blowers are so much harder on the caged lowers to the point that they break them? I don't think its an issue of belt tension as I'd assume those big blowers can run big enough pulleys that tension isn't the problem. I'd think the issue is the speeding up and slowing down of the blower.

Isn't your 2.9 eating lower bushings in a summer a perfect example of whats happening?

I'm no engineer but i know I want to keep the caged lower.

 

[MalcolmV8]

Then how come 3.4l and 4.0l blowers are so much harder on the caged lowers to the point that they break them? I don't think its an issue of belt tension as I'd assume those big blowers can run big enough pulleys that tension isn't the problem. I'd think the issue is the speeding up and slowing down of the blower.

Isn't your 2.9 eating lower bushings in a summer a perfect example of whats happening?

I'm no engineer but i know I want to keep the caged lower.

I agree on keeping the caged lower for sure. When a 3.4 or 4.0 breaks a stock caged lower is it breaking right at the threads we try and take them apart when we disassemble them? I ask because a guy sent me a pic of his broken there and he had a 2.9 just like me. I can see the stress of speeding up and down stressing those threads or even the bushings, that makes sense. Just like what I see on my 2.9, crushing those bushings.

However snapping the crank or trashing the oil pump though only seems to happen once the cage goes away which seems to imply it's side to side deflection of the crank. Just my observation, I have no data or testing to back that up.

The person above was saying removing the cage is not a big issue, it's removing the bushings that's causing an issue. Humm I don't know about that. Ford could have easily put bushings in the pulley setup directly off the balancer with no cage but they went to a lot of trouble to have a caged setup that prevents any side to side deflection of the crank and that I think is key.

 

[0-MYSTACHROME-4]

Id be interested also if we can get the price down a lil lower

 

[cj428mach]

Id be interested also if we can get the price down a lil lower

We'll see. I'm thinking about pulling back getting 5 pretty expensive ones made for me and a few of my friends with a couple extra. If the project turns out the way I want I may try to throw a group purchase together on a large quantity. Its early so i have a lot of time to decide.

 

[joshcarp81]

So what kinda money did they come back at you with for the number of units you were having made. As I stated earlier I'm still interested.

 

[MalcolmV8]

I got another factory caged lower. 3rd one now. This one has only ever turned over a factory Eaton blower which is what I was specifically looking for. I attached it to my jig for pulling these apart, put a little heat on it and wow with one arm I took it apart with a regular Sears breaker bar like butter. Unreal difference, like day and night. The other two lowers that had been over stressed turning over that 2.9 Whipple where so seized up half the threads were trashed. As mentioned above I heated them almost glowing red, destroyed 5 + breaker bars and sockets using a 6 foot cheater bar on the breaker bars and beating down with a BFH to get them apart.

My point. If your lower has been turning over a bigger heavier blower be warned it may not come apart. BTW if you grab an Eaton and spin it over by hand and then grab a 2.9 its unreal how hard it is to turn the 2.9. I have no idea why the Whipple is like that.