Bringing the 4lb Caged lower back from the Dead?

eschaider

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Mike, I found this thread from the link you posted on ModFords looking for interest.

It has been about six years since Brian (03SVTCobra10th) originated this project. As you and others may already know it was completed about a year later by John (WS6JJP) after Brian became ill.

In the years that have passed we have found better less expensive entry level fixes for the average enthusiast. The most cost effective was the crank snout stud. The crank is drilled and tapped for a high strength ARP stud that anchors back by the #1 main bearing. The stud is 9/16 and made from a substantially better steel than the grade 10.9 OEM fasteners. When tightened to its 180 ft/lb spec the 8740 version of the stud will clamp the hardware on the front go the crank together with a 24,000 lb squeeze which approximates 3x the OEM fastener. This is a picture of the stud in the crank just after drilling and tapping,

1 Crank StudDamper Hub - 1.1.jpg

While no solution is bullet proof this one has performed well over the years with no reported snout failures. It requires an $8 stud from ARP and corresponding washer and nut that puts the cost of parts just under $25.

The biggest problem with the OEM lower, other than deterioration, is ability to use aftermarket lowers like Metco and others offer. With the use of the studded crank the standard Metco lower hub works well and allows the use of interchangeable pulleys.

For those who operate their engines at a much higher performance level than the average street enthusiast (read racer) the next step up uses a custom BHJ damper fitted with a custom lower hub that accepts Metco lowers and also an industry standard drive for an external wet sump oil pump. This two main parts in this solution are the damper and the hub. This is the damper,

3 BHJ Damper.jpg

This is the hub,

2.1 Damper Hub.jpg

This is both assembled with the external wet sump drive, they are robust.

Damper Hub - 4.jpg

The foundation for each of these is the 9/16 ARP crank stud. The stud is important because it removes a tensile loading from the snout that along with the undercut fillet at the first journal transition on the snout is the instigator for snout breakage. The stud removes the tensile loading and replaces it with a massive compressive load to secure all the hardware on the front of the crank.

There is one final step beyond this and although it looks similar it uses a custom crank with a 1.400" snout instead of the 1.25" OEM snout. The snout is lengthened 0.700 inches. the reason for th length increase is the stock crank has a press fit length of 0.7" for a 1.25" diameter. This crank uses a 1.4 inch press fit length for a 1.4 inch diameter. In the center of the snout is a 5/8" stud that gets torqued to 240 ft/lbs with an equally massive clamping force. The BHJ damper can be upgraded to work with the larger snout and the lower hub works with either equally well.

This is a picture of a crank with the extended length 1.400" snout and the 5/8" stud hole,

Winberg1.1.jpg

This crank is made out of a Timken Super Steel that is fatigue and strength-wise superior to vacuum remelt 4340 or 300M steel as it is called by the marketing guys. Notice the size of the snout compared to #1 Main bearing.

No matter which of these or other solutions you may pursue you absolutely must replace the stock Ford woodruff key with a tool steel square key. The stock key looks like a piece of a dime you cut off with shears and then attached long thin extensions to each end to gain extra width the dime did not have. It is those extended ends that are torn off first and then the remainder of the mild steel key rolls over gouging your crank snout and damper.

Be sure to have your cranks cut for 3/16 inch square keys and only use tool steel keys (available at Grainger) — no matter what solution you pursue. BTW if you are interested in additional detail there is more information available about how to build these different protections. It is in on ModFords in the 03/04 SVT Cobra Forum in the Terminator Table of Contents (TT0C) at the top of the forum. Go into the Engine section and look for Crank Tech I and Crank Tech II.


Ed
 

Bdubbs

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Interesting, really not sure what route to go when I crank up the boost. But I'd consider buying one.
 
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cj428mach

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Mike, I found this thread from the link you posted on ModFords looking for interest.

It has been about six years since Brian (03SVTCobra10th) originated this project. As you and others may already know it was completed about a year later by John (WS6JJP) after Brian became ill.

In the years that have passed we have found better less expensive entry level fixes for the average enthusiast. The most cost effective was the crank snout stud. The crank is drilled and tapped for a high strength ARP stud that anchors back by the #1 main bearing. The stud is 9/16 and made from a substantially better steel than the grade 10.9 OEM fasteners. When tightened to its 180 ft/lb spec the 8740 version of the stud will clamp the hardware on the front go the crank together with a 24,000 lb squeeze which approximates 3x the OEM fastener. This is a picture of the stud in the crank just after drilling and tapping,

View attachment 51525

While no solution is bullet proof this one has performed well over the years with no reported snout failures. It requires an $8 stud from ARP and corresponding washer and nut that puts the cost of parts just under $25.

Ed

Ed,

Thanks for the information, and I can tell from reading some of your posts you definitely have a lot knowledge and are an asset to the community.

The stud maybe a great fix and probably the solution for many when pulling their motor. I just reinstalled my engine after fixing the head tick, and there is no way the motor is coming back out to drill the crank lol. I also know many others that don't want to go to that effort just to increase boost.

This kinda originated out of a friend wanting to increase boost but he was only willing to do it if he got to keep the cage. I thought that the best solution was to get a pulley made that would allow the reuse of the rest of the lower to help keep costs down. If it was something others wanted then i'd do my best to help them achieve the same goal.

Anyways i went down to the shop and got my spare lower apart, here is the pulley that'll hopefully make this idea come through, lol.

osws3c.jpg


I used a little heat on it to help get the bearing out so I wouldn't have to be so rough with it to get it apart. The plan is to get this exact pulley reproduced in aluminum just in a larger size. Everything else from the stock lower will be reused, except a new bearing and bushings although a person could reuse them if they wanted but for $30 bucks, why? lol.

If time allows I'll go by the machine shop to drop the pulley off and see if I can get this ball rolling. I'll know more after talking to the machine shop and i'll try to keep this updated.
 
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GodStang

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With future plans in store I really think this is a route I will need to go. So depending on price I have intrest.
 

eschaider

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Ed,

Thanks for the information, and I can tell from reading some of your posts you definitely have a lot knowledge and are an asset to the community.

The stud maybe a great fix and probably the solution for many when pulling their motor. I just reinstalled my engine after fixing the head tick, and there is no way the motor is coming back out to drill the crank lol. I also know many others that don't want to that effort just to increase boost.

This kinda originated out of a friend wanting to increase boost but he was only willing to do it if he got to keep the cage. I thought that the best solution was to get a pulley made that would allow the reuse of the rest of the lower to help keep costs down. If it was something others wanted then i'd do my best to help them achieve the same goal.

Anyways i went down to the shop and got my spare lower apart, here is the pulley that'll hopefully make this idea come through, lol.

[deleted pic]

I used a little heat on it to help get the bearing out so I wouldn't have to be so rough with it to get it apart. The plan is to get this exact pulley reproduced in aluminum just in a larger size. Everything else from the stock lower will be reused, except a new bearing and bushings although a person could reuse them if they wanted but for $30 bucks, why? lol.

If time allows I'll go by the machine shop to drop the pulley off and see if I can get this ball rolling. I'll know more after talking to the machine shop and i'll try to keep this updated.


You are correct about the requirement to remove the engine (and crank) for the stud mod, Mike. While they are in the car the mod is simply not possible, it requires engine removal in order to be done at all. If the owner has not removed or will not be removing the engine then the upgraded front support is the only practical alternative available to them.


Ed
 

cj428mach

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I dropped the pulley off at the machine shop today along with a new bearing. The plan is make the pulley out of aluminum, hard anodized black, in the original shape just with an outside diameter of 8.6". The pulley will also be machined for a snap ring to hold the bearing in instead of being staked.

I was told tomorrow i'd be called with an "official" quote then if i approve it they'll get the ball rolling. I'm planing to have 10 built unless the quote is way off from the original estimate. I'll report back once I get the original quote and that we're still on track.
 

MalcolmV8

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Mike I may very well get one from you. I'm in the process of having a machine shop turn me some aluminum bushings for my stock lower as my 2.9 puts enough force on the stock rubber ones it just destroys them. So I decided screw it they're going to be aluminum and never replace them again.
However once I get my new setup running if I find the pulley combo just isn't moving the air I need for it then I'd like to go to a 4 lb lower but not getting rid of the cage. Especially when I see how much force that 2.9 puts on my stock lower rubber bushings and destroys them. I swapped out my lower last year and in one summer it destroyed the rubber in that lower too.
 

cj428mach

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Mike I may very well get one from you. I'm in the process of having a machine shop turn me some aluminum bushings for my stock lower as my 2.9 puts enough force on the stock rubber ones it just destroys them. So I decided screw it they're going to be aluminum and never replace them again.
However once I get my new setup running if I find the pulley combo just isn't moving the air I need for it then I'd like to go to a 4 lb lower but not getting rid of the cage. Especially when I see how much force that 2.9 puts on my stock lower rubber bushings and destroys them. I swapped out my lower last year and in one summer it destroyed the rubber in that lower too.

Holy Crap 1 summer killed them already?

I know you hate replacing bushings but the thought having that much force (enough to destroy bushings in a summer) with out any shock absorber attached to the front of the motor sounds scary to me. Have you tried a harder bushing material? The stuff I plan to use is durometer rating of 60, I have a short section of poly bushing material with a hardness of 80 that I got from McMaster Car that feels almost like a little billy club lol. It might work better than a metal bushing as far as shock absorbing and I can send you a chunk big enough to make 3 bushings out of it.

When I get a pulley Malcolm I'll reserve you first right of refusal on it.

If anyone is wanting to know the quality of the shop that I'm working with here are a few pics.

MMT1.jpg

MMT2.jpg
MMT4.jpg
MMT5.jpg
MMT3.jpg

I'm really surprised/excited they're taking the project on as its so little but they're a local growing company and I think they like to help out the little guy.
 
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MalcolmV8

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I have not tried a harder rubber or alternative. I was going straight to aluminum. I figured the aftermarket pulleys are usually just solid one piece designs, even most factory pulleys are that way. I'm really not sure that any rubber isolation is needed except maybe for noise dampening but that's not a concern on my car.

That said I'm not apposed to trying something prior to solid aluminum if it seems to be the smart thing to do.
 

cj428mach

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I have not tried a harder rubber or alternative. I was going straight to aluminum. I figured the aftermarket pulleys are usually just solid one piece designs, even most factory pulleys are that way. I'm really not sure that any rubber isolation is needed except maybe for noise dampening but that's not a concern on my car.

That said I'm not apposed to trying something prior to solid aluminum if it seems to be the smart thing to do.
If you want the stuff let me know and I can send you a piece. I also have a damaged tri-bar/crank drive that the threads stripped off of you're welcome to. It would be a great candidate for someone wanting to weld the Tri-bar together rather than ruining a good lower.

There are obviously plenty of guys out there with aftermarket lowers with no bushings in them so maybe its not necessary but more of a feel good mod, lol.

Here is a good read by Ed that seems to make a lot of sense and makes me want to keep my lower pulley with rubber bushings in it not just for support but for further shock absorption.

"Crank snout supports have come and gone and come again for blown Hemis for the last thirty years. Same is true for Ford's Modular motor. Terminators have them Ford GTs don't. From a warranty exposure perspective I think they may have paid measureable dividends for Ford. But, then again there is the GT 40. The original banter for the blown Hemi crowd was saving the crank from breaking between the first rod journal and the second main bearing. Then there was a bunch of talk about saving the bearings. What we discovered was if you ran the clutch real tight and used wide ratios in the Lenco you would be priviledged to buy new crankshafts two or three times a year. Bearing life was bearing life and the crank snout supports had no measureable impact. But, they did modestly extend the life of the crankshaft. What worked best was operating the engine in a more or less fixed and quite narrow rpm band and letting the clutch 'close' on the engine accelerating the car through each progressively higher gear. The crank breakage went away and the car ran better! The bad boy so to speak was the blower being forced to abruptly change rotor speeds on a gear change. The blower belt applied force went from the engine tugging on the blower pre gear change to the blower tugging on the engine at the gear change and then the engine tugging again after the gear change. The sliding of the clutch during gear changes essentially eliminated this problem. The engine liked this, the fuel system liked this, the blower liked this and the blower belt liked this. On the terminators we run a serpentine belt. On the race cars we ran 8 or 14mm Gates belts. These are beasts, they have to be because it takes almost a thousand horsepower just to spin the blower. The race car belts don't slip things either immediately change rpm or the belt breaks or suprise suprise the crank breaks. On the Terminators we have a built in safety relief. Most of us will recognize it as blower belt slippage. We don't want it under power but we really want it on gear changes - it saves our parts just like on the race car. Remember with the stock overdrive your blower is basically at 12,000 rpm when the engine is at 6,000 rpm. Lets say your T-56 first gear is 2.97 and second is 2.07. The RPM change between the two gears is (2.07/2.97)*6000. After the gear change the new engine RPM is 4181, call it 4200. The blower RPM is now 8400. You just slowed the blower down by basically 4000 rpm virtually instantly! What absorbs all the energy? The blower drive belt transmits it to the crankshaft and that lonely single web between #1 rod journal and #2 main bearing transmits the entire load to the rest of the drivetrain. Take a look at the crank. The thought of what happens should scare you. Do you need the crank snout support? Yes and no. If you intend to jack up your blower belt drive tension or go to one of the cog belt (8mm or 14mm) drives better use it and better get a couple of backup cranks. If you're lucky you will catch it after it cracks the crank and before it breaks the crank. If you're like most of us you don't service the engine like a race car which means you'll just break it. If you keep the serpentine drive and don't get crazy with belt tension you have nothing to worry about. Enjoy the car, the horsepower and the extraordinary ride and don't worry about your crank or bearings. they're in good hands.

Read more at: http://www.modularfords.com/threads/87837-Lower-Pulley-Bad-for-the-Crank-Bearings
 
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MalcolmV8

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So the stuff you have is harder than the regular rubber? sort of like going urethane instead of solid? Might not be a bad idea. Go ahead and send it, I'll get a few bucks going your way.
 

cj428mach

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So the stuff you have is harder than the regular rubber? sort of like going urethane instead of solid? Might not be a bad idea. Go ahead and send it, I'll get a few bucks going your way.

Nah don't worry about it we'll call it even for dropping my old parts in the mail. I think I got your address somewhere if not I'll pm you.

I've been told the factory bushings were durometer tested at 60. I have some 60 an 80 rated material (The higher the number the tougher it is) I can send you enough to do your lower in the 80. I probably have enough to send you one bushing worth of silicone/rubber in the 60.

The silicone 60 stuff that people recommend fits extremely tight when brand new and installed. I needed wd40, lots of pressure, and a little tapping of a hammer to get the tri-bar assembly to go into the bushing material all the way. I've handled 5 caged lowers in my life and only 1 ever had the bushings that tight.
 

Bdubbs

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So what exactly will this look like? Pictures from the first page?
 

cj428mach

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So what exactly will this look like? Pictures from the first page?


osws3c.jpg


What i'm having made is just this part only. It should look very similar to the stock pulley only 8.6" diameter instead of the stock 7.375". I've only explained how I want the pulley to look to the shop and they have to build it in CAD first, then they'll call me in to take a look. They have the stock pulley to reverse engineer off of so it should be fairly simple.

The plan is to design it to look just the same as stock but the spokes will be 3/8" thick instead of the stocker which is very thin but steel. The back will look pretty much stockish but there will be a little more material around the bushing pockets as this will save on design costs. The pulley will be aluminum, hard anodized for wear protection, and it'll also have a snap ring to hold the bearing instead of being staked. This will require complete disassembly of your factory caged lower in order to install the new pulley.

I got a call midweek from the shop and was a little down in the dumps about it as the guy missed his quote by quite a bit as originally i was hoping to get 10 down to around $300 a piece. Now I'm told if I have 10 made they'll cost close to $400 to get into peoples hands and that would be darn close to my total cost (no profit). I don't really care to make much of a profit, at best I was hoping i could get my pulley paid for by the time its all done but thats not going to happen lol.

I'm determined to see this through and at least see some produced so I told the shop to make 10......they told me they'd call me when they have the CAD work done to show me and then they'd start production. When I go back to the machine shop I'll question what 15-20 units would cost to produce but thats getting to be a pretty large investment if no one will buy one. If I was to go that route I'd probably have to ask for deposits. I was told this would take 1.5-2 months start to finish to have the final product in my hands as they're very busy.

The part that sucks is they said they have to build them all at once. I'd really like to get a single prototype done, on my car, and running. As it would be a lot easier to sell people on them when I had a proven product in my hands.

So thats probably all I'll have for updates on the pulley for a while. When I get called in to go look at the CAD stuff i'll update the thread. I'm open for feedback and questions though.

Edit- on a positive note at least there is some interest in this now.
 
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MalcolmV8

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Is it worth shopping around with different machine shops? Sounds to me like they're very much on the high side of things. I wonder if a fellow enthusiast like Cobra Engineering would be interested in something like this. Have you asked James?
 

MG0h3

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Interested as well.

Malcolm, yours is the first Ive read of tearing up the bushings that quickly. Guessing you are running a manual tensioner?

OP I saw you used some heat to get the 14mm hex out of the pulley once the cage assembly is out? Then impact? I tried like a mofo to get mine out and replace the bushings but couldn't get it.
 

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