Whats next for more N/A power?

[BlackNDecker]

Sounds great, but will those mods work correctly and make more power on a Boss WITHOUT adjusting a tune since the ECU adjusts the AFR's by itself?

I have not seen confirmation that the Roadrunner ECU can adjust for changing the intake....only seen this for exhaust mods. You could always buy a used intake and make a dyno run to see...but to be honest, your biggest gains from increasing airflow should come as a result of being able to add more fuel. Once you start modifying your intake and injectors then you're exceeding what the ECU can adjust for "on the fly."


BTW, the dyno graph I posted above shows less than 20 rwhp gains because these were "catted" LTHs. Regardless of how well the Roadrunner ECU adjusts for the AFRs....you should be aware that you WILL have a cel. This just reflects that the AFR is outside of what FoMoCo specified in the base ECU map.

 

[kbroush]

You could but the Airraid cold air intake since it has the maf insert to make it the same diameter as the factory one but from what I have heard is the factory cold air intake does very well, especially if you do not want to mess with the tune.

 

[ihatepotholes]

Cobra Jet intake manifold requires a CJ throttle body, does anyone know if the TB will fit on the boss?

 

[Rebel302]

I have not had much luck with the ford racing throttle body. We can't tune it. I will sell anybody, here the never used throttle body for half price. I'll even cover the shipping. It can be tuned I supposed but you are going to need Jon Lund or someone like that. So if anyone wants a $350 Ford Racing throttle body, I have one. Don't say i did not warn you though. I though MMR ported heads cheap at least tehy did when i wa considering using them. I was recommended against using them by some people and went with Livernois. But that does not mean MMR is not good. They may be great. If their stuff works they are definitely who i would go with if i was doing this again. I had to send my heads to Detroit for Livernois to port them and then i had to wait over a month to get them back. can't argue about the results but MMR is right down the street practically and i could have done the whole engine build through them probably a lot easier. They also have a bitchin looking intake and i would be interested to see how it works. I am very excited for anybody doing this build. I know the envelope can be pushed further with the Boss since the ECU can handle higher rpms. Intake cams and head porting for a boss (No need to forge the internals) is really the only way to go because putting a supercharger on these cars is sacrilege and does not improve performance over what you can get N/A

Have you seen this article?

The New Boss 302 Intake - Hot Rod Magazine

 

[BlackNDecker]

Here is a dyno graph posted in the "2011 Mustang forum" of Comp Cams on a coyote motor. IMO, this is an example of being "over cammed"...I think this motor would benefit from a bump in compression to help maximize area under the curve.

Reference:Coyote Bolt Ons - Pick-Up Sticks - 5.0 Mustang & Super Fords Magazine

 

[twistedneck]

does increased static compression ratio have a rule of thumb for torqe improvement? also going 13.5 to one helps with high rpm power and torqe beyond more squeeze. its required to get super high rpm.. i.e. nascar is 16.0 to 1.

 

[BlackNDecker]

On the 2.4 liter Honda motors, every point of compression is worth ~10 hp....I would imagine the 5.0 would get at least that, if not double. We are starting with, what 10:1? 12.5:1 is safe on 91 octane (can go even higher with e85)...

Huge hp gains could be realized with 13.5:1 cr and e85....maybe 80+ hp all across the powerband?

 

[RSKtakR]

Im not so worried about the CAI, as I think I will leave the stocker on, however I am VERY interested in the Kooks LT's and catted h-pipe set up and I think I will will possibly pull the trigger on that.. POSSIBLY. I read through that entire thread and Kendal had said at one point that the car ran noticably leaner with the Trackey tune,and also that he had a CE light because the cats werent long enough but Kooks was working on that problem. I posted there and Im waiting for his reply to see if those problems was ever worked out. Im also wondering what Ford would say IF there was a motor failure of any sort with LT's, hi flo cats, and either stock tune and if they could black flag your warranty at all since the tune wasn't modified in any way.

So I have another question. Since the coyote ECU also runs on wide bands and knock sensors, technically wouldn't that system also be able to run just fine with putting LT's and a catted x or h pipe on and also adjusting the AFR's by itself?

 

[kbroush]

Im not so worried about the CAI, as I think I will leave the stocker on, however I am VERY interested in the Kooks LT's and catted h-pipe set up and I think I will will possibly pull the trigger on that.. POSSIBLY. I read through that entire thread and Kendal had said at one point that the car ran noticably leaner with the Trackey tune,and also that he had a CE light because the cats werent long enough but Kooks was working on that problem. I posted there and Im waiting for his reply to see if those problems was ever worked out. Im also wondering what Ford would say IF there was a motor failure of any sort with LT's, hi flo cats, and either stock tune and if they could black flag your warranty at all since the tune wasn't modified in any way.

So I have another question. Since the coyote ECU also runs on wide bands and knock sensors, technically wouldn't that system also be able to run just fine with putting LT's and a catted x or h pipe on and also adjusting the AFR's by itself?

As long as the catalytic converters on the kooks system are good enough to not trip the cel then there should be no problem with installing full exhaust on the boss and having no tune. If you have a 2013 boss you can check the AFR with your built in gauge or you can have it dynoed and have them check the AFR then.

 

[RSKtakR]

As long as the catalytic converters on the kooks system are good enough to not trip the cel then there should be no problem with installing full exhaust on the boss and having no tune. If you have a 2013 boss you can check the AFR with your built in gauge or you can have it dynoed and have them check the AFR then.

Kooks is supposed to (probably have by now because the system is for sale now) switch up to a little longer cat so the car doesnt shoot the code anymore, so I dont think that will be a problem. I was more worried about the "leaner with Trackey" part and possible warranty problems...Thats where I am right now anyways. I dont mind dropping the $1300 for the LT's and catted h-pipe for gains across the entire power band, as long as I dont have problems later.

 

[BlackNDecker]

So I have another question. Since the coyote ECU also runs on wide bands and knock sensors, technically wouldn't that system also be able to run just fine with putting LT's and a catted x or h pipe on and also adjusting the AFR's by itself?

The Coyote ECU is different than the Roadrunner ECU. I haven't seen anyone get this type of gain from LTs on a coyote without tuning. I'm not saying it isn't possible, I just haven't seen anyone post the dyno graphs.

Kooks is supposed to (probably have by now because the system is for sale now) switch up to a little longer cat so the car doesnt shoot the code anymore, so I dont think that will be a problem. I was more worried about the "leaner with Trackey" part and possible warranty problems...Thats where I am right now anyways. I dont mind dropping the $1300 for the LT's and catted h-pipe for gains across the entire power band, as long as I dont have problems later.

Under the magnusson-moss act, Ford has to prove the modified part caused the engine failure.

 

[Dizzyscure1]

The Coyote ECU is different than the Roadrunner ECU. I haven't seen anyone get this type of gain from LTs on a coyote without tuning. I'm not saying it isn't possible, I just haven't seen anyone post the dyno graphs.

Under the magnusson-moss act, Ford has to prove the modified part caused the engine failure.

My dealer voided my warranty stating my Off road Hpipe caused my #8 on my GT so yeah they will use what ever they want and unless you wanna spend lots of money on a lawer you will be stuck with the problem because they won't and don't have to prove anything and ford will back the dealer up every time! Believe me I went through 4 months of hell with this LOL! 100% stock ford will fix if not then you better plan on flipping the bill. Ohhh yeah my lawyer wanted to start out with $5,000 to send a simple letter then $500 per hour after that for his time and all the fees for paperwork & experts and so on!! So yeah you can drop $5-30k quick on this crap and unless the court rules in your favors your out tons of money. So for me I mod with the intent of having to fix my $12k engine or $6k tranny or what ever else inbetween. I know it sucks but do your homework on everything that could go wrong and the chances that it will happen to you and see if you can shell out or wanna shell out $$$$ for what ever goes wrong. Sorry for the rant LOL!

 

[86Fbody]

So I can install LT's and hi flow cats, and not even change the Trackey tune and the motor would gain 20-30whp? I thought the tune HAD to be altered to take advantage of the mods etc?

Are you saying that you have the TracKey tune and you are going to be doing other mods?

 

[Highway Star]

B&D. Overcammed? Why? What is your definition? I totally understand the desire to go up in compression but have you talked to anybody that has done that? I considered it because I forged my rotating assembly, but decided not too because it would add a complicating factor to the build that was already complicated enough given that i would have been the first person to do all those things. Livernois and some others make 11.5 compression pistons and you can order anything you want higher than that i suppose. Raising compression even .5 creates a heck of a lot more heat. heat is the enemy. Higher compression requires good gas or detonation risks arise just like in supercharging. Given the 91 octane here, I just decided to leave it alone. The heat issue is just too big a risk in my opinion for me to go that route given that iwas going to track the car as well as drive it. It may be doable and driveable and reliable, I just don't know anyone that has changed the intake, ported the heads, changed the cams AND upped compression.

 

[Highway Star]

The best way to insure that you have enough satisfactory low end torque is to put on headers as well as cams. Headers will give you more torque throughout the rpm band.

 

[NOGI88]

just order a some headers & off road h. can't wait to feel the extra pooooooower!!

 

[BlackNDecker]

B&D. Overcammed? Why? What is your definition? I totally understand the desire to go up in compression but have you talked to anybody that has done that? I considered it because I forged my rotating assembly, but decided not too because it would add a complicating factor to the build that was already complicated enough given that i would have been the first person to do all those things. Livernois and some others make 11.5 compression pistons and you can order anything you want higher than that i suppose. Raising compression even .5 creates a heck of a lot more heat. heat is the enemy. Higher compression requires good gas or detonation risks arise just like in supercharging. Given the 91 octane here, I just decided to leave it alone. The heat issue is just too big a risk in my opinion for me to go that route given that iwas going to track the car as well as drive it. It may be doable and driveable and reliable, I just don't know anyone that has changed the intake, ported the heads, changed the cams AND upped compression.

I haven't seen anyone increase compression yet either....but this is where we will see the biggest gains with this motor NA. E85 would help keep cylinder temps down...Sunoco is also a viable alternative since you can have this delivered directly to your house. We probably won't see many more extreme NA builds like yours (with high compression pistons) until these coyote powered cars start to outlive their powertrain warranties and become 2nd and 3rd owner cars.

Re: overcammed...
In my experience, "overcammed" occurs when the power curve is shifted rightward giving up significant midrange power. Likewise, an undercammed power curve would be shifted leftward and would top out too early.

Here is an example of an overly cammed motor (red line):

Whereas a properly selected cam will yield gains throughout the powerband:

 

[Boss 327]

I'm sure these engines can take higher compression with no problem. I'm running 11.5:1 on 91 in my cobra without any issues. I would love to see a h/c/I roadrunner with 12-13:1 compression. I'm sure anything over 12/12.5:1 would require e85 or some other high octane fuel but that would be one badass engine.

 

[BlackNDecker]

I'm sure these engines can take higher compression with no problem. I'm running 11.5:1 on 91 in my cobra without any issues. I would love to see a h/c/I roadrunner with 12-13:1 compression. I'm sure anything over 12/12.5:1 would require e85 or some other high octane fuel but that would be one badass engine.

Agreed. I'm certain in 5 years people will be getting 600+ rwhp with a slight overbore, 12.5:1 (or higher) compression, properly matched cams, and full bolt ons.

 

[Highway Star]

Black n decker, I have not ever seen until you posted the above dyno sheet a performance cam on these cars that did not give up some low end. Now the dyno sheet you refer to is on another engine, so I do not know the applicability to ours, but if someone makes a cam like that I would be interested. The thing to note however is that even the Boss loses some low and midrange torque in comparison to the GT. So whatever the problem, apparently Ford has not fixed it. If you do a complete build, headers, cams, intake, ported heads, torque over the entire power band will increase in comparison to stock. If you do cams and intake only, then yes you wil lose some low end torque. But from my perspective and driving experience this torque loss does not effect ultimate performance and driving enjoyment. Others like to have their neck snap back when they touch the throttle. I on the other hand, enjoy the torque building over the entire RPM band. Isn't that what the concept of the Boss is all about? I wish I could easily post my dyno sheets. Cause I think it would be good information for everybody to have. I did about ten dyno runs on this car and the info really should be out there for everybody else. As to high compression, for the track F@#$ yeah, but e85 is not readily available and I do like to drive the car. I do not know why I cannot just scan my sheets and post them. If anybody could give me some help on this, I would appreciate it.