Whats next for more N/A power?

dtheo

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Just curious, if you didn't want to supercharge the Boss engine and wanted to maintain the naturally aspirated theme and high revving. Do you install new pistons and heads to get a higher compression? Who offers these packages? What would be the price per 1hp increase?

Just a thought.

thanks
 

RTD

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Just curious, if you didn't want to supercharge the Boss engine and wanted to maintain the naturally aspirated theme and high revving. Do you install new pistons and heads to get a higher compression? Who offers these packages? What would be the price per 1hp increase?

Just a thought.

thanks

In order:

- Off road x/h pipe
- CAI and tune
- Long tube headers
- Weight reduction (axle back exhaust, lightweight wheels, one piece aluminum or cf driveshaft, fiberglass hood)

Only after all that would I even think about the CJ intake, cams, or porting the heads.
 

ArabianOak

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electric water pump is supposed to yield 10rwhp and going e85 is supposed to be around 13rwhp. anybody have a link for an electric water pump option?
 

Rebel302

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Seeing as how Ford Racing took the "Roadrunner" and used it as a baseline for the new Cobra Jet(NA & FI), I figure why not do some of the same things they did to the NA version to get me to my goal? Granted, it will be just as or more expensive than going FI to do it right, but that's my vision I have for my LS and in the end I think I will be happier. I'm overseas at the moment, but I've started ordering the things(piling up in my garage) I need to make it happen(CJ manifold/intake not out yet), and I can't wait to get home and get it together.

Now when you ask about "more power", how much more are you trying to achieve? More usable power or bragging rights? Do you have a goal set in your mind where you want the car? Are you tracking your Boss at all or is it for more fun during "spirited" driving?

If you are looking for a "kit" though...JPC would be the place I would go as 5.0 mag has done tests and its a proven kit :beer:
"TOP DOG" JPC 2011 COYOTE 500HP PACKAGE
 
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dtheo

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Seeing as how Ford Racing took the "Roadrunner" and used it as a baseline for the new Cobra Jet(NA & FI), I figure why not do some of the same things they did to the NA version to get me to my goal? Granted, it will be just as or more expensive than going FI to do it right, but that's my vision I have for my LS and in the end I think I will be happier. I'm overseas at the moment, but I've started ordering the things(piling up in my garage) I need to make it happen(CJ manifold/intake not out yet), and I can't wait to get home and get it together.

Now when you ask about "more power", how much more are you trying to achieve? More usable power or bragging rights? Do you have a goal set in your mind where you want the car? Are you tracking your Boss at all or is it for more fun during "spirited" driving?
If you are looking for a "kit" though...JPC would be the place I would go as 5.0 mag has done tests and its a proven kit :beer:
"TOP DOG" JPC 2011 COYOTE 500HP PACKAGE

I was thinking is 550-575 at the crank possible naturally aspirated. I don't have a Boss now, but am very curious about all N/A setup potential. It would be more for road course on some weekends. I always drive "spirited" so thats a given with any mustang owner.
 

wikdlx

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90mm throttle body, long tube headers, x-pipe and a good cat-back, JLT cold air kit, aluminum driveshaft and a tune. This is what I am doing to my car before I add a supercharger
 

Rebel302

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I was thinking is 550-575 at the crank possible naturally aspirated. I don't have a Boss now, but am very curious about all N/A setup potential. It would be more for road course on some weekends. I always drive "spirited" so thats a given with any mustang owner.

I wouldn't say "any" mustang owner...I don't drive like that :nono:......SIKE!!! LOL
:lol: I could barely type that with a straight face
With 1 3/4 LT's, Boss intake a JLT air intake, 90mm TB and Stage 2 Comp Cams, Hot Rod Mag got 540 hp and 435 lb-ft of torque on a coyote at the crank on an engine dyno. That "Top Dog" package JPC has(according to tests) is putting down 500+ RWHP without raising compression. That should give you a good idea as to what you are dealing with :burnout:

90mm throttle body, long tube headers, x-pipe and a good cat-back, JLT cold air kit, aluminum driveshaft and a tune. This is what I am doing to my car before I add a supercharger

Definitely a good start if you are going FI :beer:
 
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BlackNDecker

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With 1 3/4 LT's, Boss intake a JLT air intake, 90mm TB and Stage 2 Comp Cams, Hot Rod Mag got 540 hp and 435 lb-ft of torque on a coyote at the crank on an engine dyno. That "Top Dog" package JPC has(according to tests) is putting down 500+ RWHP without raising compression. That should give you a good idea as to what you are dealing with :burnout:

Every Comp cam I've seen (yes I subscribe to BOTH MM&FF and 5.0&SF) shows a massive loss of midrange hp...if you're trading midrange for top end hp then you're doing it wrong:bored:

LT headers are the single most important "power adder" for the Boss...Next would be the Boss 302R cams and CJ intake and TB. 12.5:1 pistons and E85 (or just order race gas from Sunoco). Upgrade injectors and fuel pump. You will then need to get a legit dyno tune by a tuner who understands how to tune variable cam timing motors (this is the problem with Comp cams...they lock out the VCT:nono:).

^This should get you very very close to your power goals.
 
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Rebel302

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Every Comp cam I've seen (yes I subscribe to BOTH MM&FF and 5.0&SF) shows a massive loss of midrange hp...if you're trading midrange for top end hp then you're doing it wrong:bored:

LT headers are the single most important "power adder" for the Boss...Next would be the Boss 302R cams and CJ intake and TB. 12.5:1 pistons and E85 (or just order race gas from Sunoco). Upgrade injectors and fuel pump. You will then need to get a legit dyno tune by a tuner who understands how to tune variable cam timing motors (this is the problem with Comp cams...they lock out the VCT:nono:).

^This should get you very very close to your power goals.

You must not have read this thread.... :read:http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/2011-mustangs-354/852941-522-rwhp-naturally-aspirated-2011-5-0-a.html
 

BlackNDecker

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I have read that and other threads discussing that build...I'm not sure what your point is, no offense intended.

If your point is to demonstrate peak hp numbers...then it isn't really relevant because peak hp is neither useable (occurring at the very tip top of the power band) nor is it reproducible from dyno to dyno.

If your point is to show the yield of comp cams, then please link the baseline dyno and the dyno after swapping cams. If it is truly a baseline to comp cams comparison then, as I stated above, the most dramatic change is the significant loss of midrange TQ and power (or what I like to refer to as the meat of the power band).

I would have to dig out the MM&FF issue from 2-3 months back for specifics, but the comp cams lost power until around 6000 rpm. I just don't understand the point of having a variable cam motor and swapping in cams that require you to lock out the VCT?????

I believe the Boss 302R cams will not give the "dyno queen" peak hp numbers, but will instead increase the area under the curve. I can't wait for someone to make this upgrade and post their results.:pop:
 

kbroush

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If you want 550-575hp at the crank then you can do that without swapping heads or raising compression. 1 7/8 long tube headers, full 3 inch exhaust, cai, injectors and e85 tune should put you close to that I would think. I plan on doing the list above as im slowly getting parts for it. From what I read to convert to e85 all you need is better injectors and a tune. The fuel pump is good enough. I have a set of ID1000 injectors in case I do this.

When I had my 2013 Boss dynoed it made 413rwhp, I figure thats around 485 at the flywheel. I don't see why 550-575 at the crank could not be done. You will probably need e85 for it though?
 

BlackNDecker

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When I had my 2013 Boss dynoed it made 413rwhp, I figure thats around 485 at the flywheel. I don't see why 550-575 at the crank could not be done. You will probably need e85 for it though?
Just to clarify, you baselined at 413 rwhp stock? What brand of dyno? What gear? That is a significant deviation from the average Boss baseline of ~385 rwhp (385 rwhp x 1.15 drivetrain loss = 443 flywheel hp). If you're numbers are to be believed, then you'll have to convince us that you're Boss only has a 7% drivetrain loss. The coyote baselines around 365 for reference.

It has been repeatedly shown that LT headers on Roadrunner motor yields 20-30 rwhp WITHOUT a tune. So for argument sake, let's say with LTs you're at 410 rwhp. A tune will give you another 10-20 hp and e85 another 10-20. You still aren't halfway to 500 rwhp.

You will need to upgrade the manifold / TB to CJ and 302R cams to get the additional 50 more hp. The 302R cams are good for 20 hp and another 20 hp for the CJ manifold + TB (....both quoted by Ford Racing in the massive Cobra Jet article in 5.0 magazine). Bumping the compression to 12.5 (pump gas) or 13.5 (e85 or race gas) will net massive gains in the mid range.
 
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kbroush

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Just to clarify, you baselined at 413 rwhp stock? What brand of dyno? What gear? That is a significant deviation from the average Boss baseline of ~385 rwhp (385 rwhp x 1.15 drivetrain loss = 443 flywheel hp). If you're numbers are to be believed, then you'll have to convince us that you're Boss only has a 7% drivetrain loss. The coyote baselines around 365 for reference.

It has been repeatedly shown that LT headers on Roadrunner motor yields 20-30 rwhp WITHOUT a tune. So for argument sake, let's say with LTs you're at 410 rwhp. A tune will give you another 10-20 hp and e85 another 10-20. You still aren't halfway to 500 rwhp.

You will need to upgrade the manifold / TB to CJ and 302R cams to get the additional 50 more hp. The 302R cams are good for 20 hp and another 20 hp for the CJ manifold + TB (....both quoted by Ford Racing in the massive Cobra Jet article in 5.0 magazine). Bumping the compression to 12.5 (pump gas) or 13.5 (e85 or race gas) will net massive gains in the mid range.


My car was dynoed on a Dynojet AWD dyno. I don't know if those read higher or lower than any other dyno, just stating what it made. I figured it makes 485hp based on a 15% drive train loss. It was cold that day so maybe that helped? The shop that dynoed my car said those are normal numbers for a Boss, he has dynoed a few other ones as well. All I know is that if I were to do full exhaus, cai, e85 and custom tune my car would make around the same hp that you want on the dyno that I was using? E85 alone gains about 20rwhp from what I have read on coyote engines.
 

kbroush

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Oh and my car was dynoed in 5th gear which is 1to1 ratio for the MT82 transmission. Our first pull was in 4th gear and it made 398 rwhp. I have read some people dynoing a lot less power but every dyno ready different so I'm sure these are not accurate numbers either.
 

BlackNDecker

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My car was dynoed on a Dynojet AWD dyno. I don't know if those read higher or lower than any other dyno, just stating what it made. I figured it makes 485hp based on a 15% drive train loss. It was cold that day so maybe that helped? The shop that dynoed my car said those are normal numbers for a Boss, he has dynoed a few other ones as well. All I know is that if I were to do full exhaus, cai, e85 and custom tune my car would make around the same hp that you want on the dyno that I was using? E85 alone gains about 20rwhp from what I have read on coyote engines.

First off, congrats on the Boss! I know I love mine....:rockon:

Absolute numbers on a dyno mean little and aren't really worth arguing over...but, having said that, I have not seen convincing evidence that Ford underrated the Boss so 485 flywheel hp is a bit of a stretch and makes me believe either your dyno reads high, you were in the wrong gear, or some other variable affected your results (TBH, I'm not sure how a AWD dyno affects the number).

Yes I agree, those mods on your specific dyno would yield the numbers I referred to....however, your dyno numbers would not translate to the predicted ETs at the 1/4 mile.:beer:
 

BlackNDecker

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Oh and my car was dynoed in 5th gear which is 1to1 ratio for the MT82 transmission. Our first pull was in 4th gear and it made 398 rwhp. I have read some people dynoing a lot less power but every dyno ready different so I'm sure these are not accurate numbers either.

Yes, your shop should see consistent baseline numbers on the Boss regardless whether it reads high or low...this only tells you that their dyno is consistent, and nothing about the "true" hp numbers of the Boss 302.
 

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