Whats next for more N/A power?

[Mnstr50]

One of you boss owners from Cali needs to get the big cj cams and intake, twin 65 TB, headers, then let Shaun tune that thing so he can mail order tune the rest of us

Early next year I WILL get the CJ cams, and a set of ported heads. I want to get the car over to Shaun and let him tune it in person. At the same time, I plan to switch over to the FRPP (or MMR) oil pump setup, Boss oil pan, Boss chain tensioners. The stock rotating assembly will remain until I get around to getting a botom-end built. However, I've heard stock-bottom-ended coyotes are holding together (with an upgraded oil pump) in boosted applications without too much fuss. I can't image the same wont hold true for NA. I believe the proper clutch/flywheel is also in order.

 

[Boss 327]

Early next year I WILL get the CJ cams, and a set of ported heads. I want to get the car over to Shaun and let him tune it in person. At the same time, I plan to switch over to the FRPP (or MMR) oil pump setup, Boss oil pan, Boss chain tensioners. The stock rotating assembly will remain until I get around to getting a botom-end built. However, I've heard stock-bottom-ended coyotes are holding together (with an upgraded oil pump) in boosted applications without too much fuss. I can't image the same wont hold true for NA. I believe the proper clutch/flywheel is also in order.

I would at the very least upgrade the rod bolts since you will be taking the rpm's higher than you would in a boosted application.

 

[Mnstr50]

I would at the very least upgrade the rod bolts since you will be taking the rpm's higher than you would in a boosted application.

This is also in the cards. ARP2000 would be overkill, but a typical ARP bolt (used in other aftermarket applications) should do just fine.

BTW- if anyone wants the CORRECT part number for the direct replacement FRPP 47# injectors it's; M-9593-LU47.

these can be found at Blue Oval Industries for $249/shipped (one of the cheapest advertised prices I've found). :beer:

 

[twistedneck]

This is also in the cards. ARP2000 would be overkill, but a typical ARP bolt (used in other aftermarket applications) should do just fine.

BTW- if anyone wants the CORRECT part number for the direct replacement FRPP 47# injectors it's; M-9593-LU47.

these can be found at Blue Oval Industries for $249/shipped (one of the cheapest advertised prices I've found). :beer:

Mnstr50, the boss handles 8000 with the good non ARP2000 rod bolts, has anyone seen these fail yet? without boost i wonder what the tensile loads are - may not even be an issue although the cobra jet did swap em.

 

[BlackNDecker]

GTFO?

Okay BlackNDecker. I was trying to be nice but you asked for it.

1) You do not know what you are talking about. You read a magazine and come in here and opine based on a article that you have seen. First, there are not that many dynographs on comp cams. I know. I have looked long before you. Also, My information is first hand I have built several of these cars. And I take them to the track. You read magazine articles and opine that you are an expert.

2) Peak horsepower is useable. I achieve peak horsepower at 7700 rpm. I drive the car at 7700 rpm and I have witnesses. Voila, I just used that peak horsepower you were saying was unuseable.

3) Who gives a crap about area under the torque curve. That is just something you read in an article that you are regurgitating on here. The car makes horsepower by rpm. Being able to spin high rpm allow you to take advantage of gearing. If you drag race or if you road race high rpms are your friend. This is true on the street as well by the way.

4) I have to scan and upload my dyno sheets to prove to you what exactly? . . . what i have already told you? I gave you the numbers. I have posted my dyno run. The before and after numbers I gave you were with the car with headers cold air and a tune vs the fully built engine. I gave you exact numbers from 3500 to 7000 rpm. They show very little loss of torque from 3000-3500. And In fact it showed a gain from 4000 up. That was not a butt dyno example. And that was not even the peak dyno run.

5) You are also not precise in your terminology. What exactly is midrange torque? I am defining it from 3500 to 5500. I gave you the torque numbers that proves you are wrong. Sure comp cams push your torque curve to the right. That is a good thing. But if you do the entire build heads / intake and cams, as I did and you did not, you would see torque gains at virtually all rpms compared to the pure stock engine.

6) When it comes to racing, Horsepower is what it is all about not torque. Anybody who knows cars knows that. If performance was about torque than deisel trucks would win the Indianapolis 500.

6) You state previously and incorrectly that TVCT is eliminated with the use of comp cams. Not true the phase limiters simply limits the degree of cam timing. you can lock them out if you choose.

7) So BlacknDecker How about you GTFO, because you have done nothing but read. While you read. I do. I have first hand knowledge that you seem to count as a weakness. The cams in combination with intake and head porting will yield one hell of an engine. i know first hand. Disagree if you want to. If you want low end grunt get a supercharger. If you want to produce one hell of an engine and an incredible driving experience then cams are a good choice as part of a more comprehensive engine build or alone. With 3.73 gears you are always in the powerband in regular street driving. That is a fact.

You misinterpreted me several times in your novel above. I'm not going to continue enumerating individual argue points with you. Suffice to say, you're the only person I know making serious hp but refuses to post a dyno graph. Why?

 

[Rebel302]

That is just great to hear. You will not regret it. I am really interested to see what the cobrajet intake along with cams would do. With your LS you can push the rpm range further than me. If you port the heads . . . you can go 560-580 at the wheels and that would be a stunning achievement. And driving these cars is just such a great experience. It truly feels as if you are driving a very driveable racecar. And the durability I think is great. i have some 12 full out dyno pulls and track days and a few canyons here and there and the engine is just bulletproof. If you go through with it, you will love it!:rockon:

I'm going with the larger FRPP 13mm cams(M-6550-M50BINT/ M-6550-M50BEXH) for my build. They stated they used the stock Boss intake cam and this exhaust cam for the CJ. They didn't port the heads on the new CJ cause according to them "Ford Racing engineers and several of its partners(read:Livernois) tried to better the stock Boss 302 cylinder head.They couldn't do so without making the costly architecture change to larger valves"...so I don't know if I want to get into all that. It's something to consider though. :beer:

This is also in the cards. ARP2000 would be overkill, but a typical ARP bolt (used in other aftermarket applications) should do just fine.

I asked the folks at Ford racing about these because they stated during Boss 302R the only rod failures were attributed to the bolt, but I never got a response back about what rod bolts were in the production Boss. Did they use the ones that failed in the 302R in the production Boss and upgrade the bolts in the 302R? Did they upgrade them to both since there was a failure during development? I guess my emails to "shorn5" went in his spam box :shrug:

Mnstr50, the boss handles 8000 with the good non ARP2000 rod bolts, has anyone seen these fail yet? without boost i wonder what the tensile loads are - may not even be an issue although the cobra jet did swap em.

I said in my original thread I would want to swap them out to these for the insurance factor just as they did. I haven't seen or heard of any failures other than what Ford Racing said about the 302R, but again, nothing wrong with a little insurance ;-)

When I get home from my stint out here in the Middle East, I will get my build started and resurrect my Q&A thread or actually make a build thread. I would love to get AED to tune mine but I'm in NC, and thats just not feasible unless he is willing to make a trip. I have Competition Auto and they have done some impressive builds so thats my option...but in the mean time...Motor On gents :burnout::rockon:

 

[Rebel302]

You misinterpreted me several times in your novel above. I'm not going to continue enumerating individual argue points with you. Suffice to say, you're the only person I know making serious hp but refuses to post a dyno graph. Why?

It's in his original thread with the links, I posted the same thread here that you said you read, and then he posted the links again to the videos where they show the dyno graphs on screen after the runs....How many times must you ask for the same info that was already posted? Is there a specific graph you want to see other than those or something? Does he have to scan them and post them for you to believe it?

 

[BlackNDecker]

I'm going with the larger FRPP 13mm cams(M-6550-M50BINT/ M-6550-M50BEXH) for my build. They stated they used the stock Boss intake cam and this exhaust cam for the CJ. They didn't port the heads on the new CJ cause according to them "Ford Racing engineers and several of its partners(read:Livernois) tried to better the stock Boss 302 cylinder head.They couldn't do so without making the costly architecture change to larger valves"...so I don't know if I want to get into all that. It's something to consider though. :beer:

I think the Ford Racing Engineers were on a compressed timeline when they were trying to improve the flow of the Boss 302 cylinder head for the Cobra Jet. I imagine at some point, we will have better flowing heads but I will want to see flow bench results....because it is relatively easy to increase high lift flow at the expense of low lift...but this would be unacceptable.

Also, I think that the CJ intake and 302R cams will shift the power curve to the right, necessitating either more displacement or higher compression to shift the curve back to the left. I bet this is why Ford Racing increased the displacment on the NA cobra jet.

When I get home from my stint out here in the Middle East, I will get my build started and resurrect my Q&A thread or actually make a build thread. I would love to get AED to tune mine but I'm in NC, and thats just not feasible unless he is willing to make a trip. I have Competition Auto and they have done some impressive builds so thats my option...but in the mean time...Motor On gents :burnout::rockon:

Your original thread on this subject was great and I too look forward to following your progress. I think we will end up having similar builds.

It takes too much time to type out with words what I mean by "peak" hp and "area under the curve" as well as "right" and "left" shifts of the power curve. If people are actually interested in this type of stuff I can post some representative dyno graphs to illustrate my points.

 

[BlackNDecker]

It's in his original thread with the links, I posted the same thread here that you said you read, and then he posted the links again to the videos where they show the dyno graphs on screen after the runs....How many times must you ask for the same info that was already posted? Is there a specific graph you want to see other than those or something? Does he have to scan them and post them for you to believe it?

He posted his thoughts in here, so I don't see why he can't post a dyno graph in here. I read the first page of the thread you linked to and didn't see any dyno graphs...sorry, but I'm not gonna hunt through multiple pages of a thread for a dyno graph.

I'm not saying I don't believe he made the power...that is not in question.
I just want to see visually "where" he made the power....why is that an unusual request:shrug:.

 

[RSKtakR]

lots of good info here.. I would LOVE to keep my 13' Boss N/A. I was just going to do bolt ons and E85, but now Im wondering about the CJ cams, intake, and TB too. I wasnt planning on LT's but I think that will be my first mod now. I REALLY want to be able to wind this motor up to 8k and have it be efficiant N/A, but to do that I would have to put in different cams, and oil pump gears it sounds like, and im not really a fan of pulling this motor apart since i have already been inside a 12 5.0 motor and that wasnt very fun lol.

 

[BlackNDecker]

lots of good info here.. I would LOVE to keep my 13' Boss N/A. I was just going to do bolt ons and E85, but now Im wondering about the CJ cams, intake, and TB too. I wasnt planning on LT's but I think that will be my first mod now. I REALLY want to be able to wind this motor up to 8k and have it be efficiant N/A, but to do that I would have to put in different cams, and oil pump gears it sounds like, and im not really a fan of pulling this motor apart since i have already been inside a 12 5.0 motor and that wasnt very fun lol.

As stated previously, LTs will net you 20-30 rwhp without even touching the ECU. That is the best bang for the buck with the Roadrunner motor. I posted dyno graphs showing this in Rebel302's original thread on this topic.

 

[RSKtakR]

As stated previously, LTs will net you 20-30 rwhp without even touching the ECU. That is the best bang for the buck with the Roadrunner motor. I posted dyno graphs showing this in Rebel302's original thread on this topic.

So I can install LT's and hi flow cats, and not even change the Trackey tune and the motor would gain 20-30whp? I thought the tune HAD to be altered to take advantage of the mods etc?

 

[Highway Star]

You misinterpreted me several times in your novel above. I'm not going to continue enumerating individual argue points with you. Suffice to say, you're the only person I know making serious hp but refuses to post a dyno graph. Why?

BlacknDecker look at the top of the page. I posted the dynograph. It is on youtube along withthe dyno run. I have several dyno graphs scanned in my computer but in order to post them here i have to upload them to some site and that is a real hassle. If you want to give me an email I can send them to you.

Sorry about the harsh response, but the GTFO comment was uncalled for. I am not here to lie to people. In fact when i have done something that proves not to work, i want to be the first to tell people, so they do not repeat my mistake. You are stuck on the belief that a naturally aspirated build with "comp cams"will lead to a loss of midrange power, less driving enjoyment and less street performance. I am telling you you are wrong. I know you are wrong because I have first hand knowledge. You telling me to GTFO when i have the precise knowledge the op needs is not cool. It leads to flame wars.

The best thing for you to do is just stand corrected rather than impugning me as some liar who is twisting the numbers to fit my argument. I am not. If anyone wants to give me a url I can quickly upload my dyno sheets to, hell. I'll publsh every dyno sheet I have. And you can all go over them with a fine tooth comb.

Also I will tell you what torque is not useable: 450 ft lbs at 2000 rpm without slicks. Good luck hooking up. In a naturally aspirated build that is not an issue. But that by no means means your torque curve below 4000 rpms is anemic.

Anyways, BlacknDecker, lets reset the relationship here. Sorry for disrespecting you. I will assume that if given the chance you would reconsider the GTFO comment. We simply have a disagreement over a car that we both love. I have looked at your car and your build and I say good luck to you. It is nice. And should you choose to go with comp cams or any cam for that matter, As long as it works, you will not be sorry you went that route. At least not with the 3.73 gears.

 

[BlackNDecker]

So I can install LT's and hi flow cats, and not even change the Trackey tune and the motor would gain 20-30whp? I thought the tune HAD to be altered to take advantage of the mods etc?

Yes. The Roadrunner ECU automatically adjusts the AFR. The same is not true with the Coyote ECU. This was shown by independent testing of the Kook's headers. I got into a big argument (imagine that:-D) with some people in the Coyote subforum about this very topic. I posted multiple links including dyno graphs proving this. Alot of people have trouble believing this.

LT headers are an awesome upgrade on the Boss, particularly for someone who doesn't want to mess with a tune. Not only do they increase rwhp and rwtq, but they do so across the powerband from around 4,000 rpm onward.

 

[RSKtakR]

Yes. The Roadrunner ECU automatically adjusts the AFR. The same is not true with the Coyote ECU. This was shown by independent testing of the Kook's headers. I got into a big argument (imagine that:-D) with some people in the Coyote subforum about this very topic. I posted multiple links including dyno graphs proving this. Alot of people have trouble believing this.

LT headers are an awesome upgrade on the Boss, particularly for someone who doesn't want to mess with a tune. Not only do they increase rwhp and rwtq, but they do so across the powerband from around 4,000 rpm onward.

I fit RIGHT into this category as I dont want to mess with the stock Trackey tune at all right now.. do you have a link of the testing of the Kooks headers by chance or can you find one and post or shoot it to me? VERY interested in that info. I didnt know the ECU's were that much different. If the roadrunner ECU automaticlly adjusts the AFR's then why are aftermarket tunes even needed for it when it comes to putting a CAI on vs the stocker or anything that would change the AFR's really??

 

[BlackNDecker]

Anyways, BlacknDecker, lets reset the relationship here. Sorry for disrespecting you. I will assume that if given the chance you would reconsider the GTFO comment. We simply have a disagreement over a car that we both love. I have looked at your car and your build and I say good luck to you. It is nice. And should you choose to go with comp cams or any cam for that matter, As long as it works, you will not be sorry you went that route. At least not with the 3.73 gears.

Comment retracted. Sorry for the harsh rhetoric. Do not misunderstand me, my hat is off to you as an innovator....I actually don't even disagree with you, rather I just have questions about the power band of the comp cams.

I am only trying to learn more about this motor. My knowledge comes from building Honda 2.4 liter VCT engines....they are virtually 1/2 of the coyote motor and much of the prinicples are the same.

I will post links to the MM&FF dyno graphs this weekend.:beer:

 

[Highway Star]

I have not had much luck with the ford racing throttle body. We can't tune it. I will sell anybody, here the never used throttle body for half price. I'll even cover the shipping. It can be tuned I supposed but you are going to need Jon Lund or someone like that. So if anyone wants a $350 Ford Racing throttle body, I have one. Don't say i did not warn you though. I though MMR ported heads cheap at least tehy did when i wa considering using them. I was recommended against using them by some people and went with Livernois. But that does not mean MMR is not good. They may be great. If their stuff works they are definitely who i would go with if i was doing this again. I had to send my heads to Detroit for Livernois to port them and then i had to wait over a month to get them back. can't argue about the results but MMR is right down the street practically and i could have done the whole engine build through them probably a lot easier. They also have a bitchin looking intake and i would be interested to see how it works. I am very excited for anybody doing this build. I know the envelope can be pushed further with the Boss since the ECU can handle higher rpms. Intake cams and head porting for a boss (No need to forge the internals) is really the only way to go because putting a supercharger on these cars is sacrilege and does not improve performance over what you can get N/A

 

[BlackNDecker]

I fit RIGHT into this category as I dont want to mess with the stock Trackey tune at all right now.. do you have a link of the testing of the Kooks headers by chance or can you find one and post or shoot it to me? VERY interested in that info. I didnt know the ECU's were that much different. If the roadrunner ECU automaticlly adjusts the AFR's then why are aftermarket tunes even needed for it when it comes to putting a CAI on vs the stocker or anything that would change the AFR's really??

Source:
Cool Tech: Kooks vs Stock Dyno Results!! - Page 2 - The Mustang Source - Ford Mustang Forums

 

[Highway Star]

This is very true.

Yes. The Roadrunner ECU automatically adjusts the AFR. The same is not true with the Coyote ECU. This was shown by independent testing of the Kook's headers. I got into a big argument (imagine that:-D) with some people in the Coyote subforum about this very topic. I posted multiple links including dyno graphs proving this. Alot of people have trouble believing this.

LT headers are an awesome upgrade on the Boss, particularly for someone who doesn't want to mess with a tune. Not only do they increase rwhp and rwtq, but they do so across the powerband from around 4,000 rpm onward.

it is the first thing i did. Cold air, kooks headers, x pipe and a tune gave me 60 hp over stock. the roadrunner ECU is as you pointed out more malleable and it is just a no brainer for a Boss.

 

[RSKtakR]

it is the first thing i did. Cold air, kooks headers, x pipe and a tune gave me 60 hp over stock. the roadrunner ECU is as you pointed out more malleable and it is just a no brainer for a Boss.

Sounds great, but will those mods work correctly and make more power on a Boss WITHOUT adjusting a tune since the ECU adjusts the AFR's by itself?