Whats next for more N/A power?

[Rebel302]

I have read that and other threads discussing that build...I'm not sure what your point is, no offense intended.

If your point is to demonstrate peak hp numbers...then it isn't really relevant because peak hp is neither useable (occurring at the very tip top of the power band) nor is it reproducible from dyno to dyno.

If your point is to show the yield of comp cams, then please link the baseline dyno and the dyno after swapping cams. If it is truly a baseline to comp cams comparison then, as I stated above, the most dramatic change is the significant loss of midrange TQ and power (or what I like to refer to as the meat of the power band).

I would have to dig out the MM&FF issue from 2-3 months back for specifics, but the comp cams lost power until around 6000 rpm. I just don't understand the point of having a variable cam motor and swapping in cams that require you to lock out the VCT?????

I believe the Boss 302R cams will not give the "dyno queen" peak hp numbers, but will instead increase the area under the curve. I can't wait for someone to make this upgrade and post their results.op:

No offense takenbut I think we are misunderstanding each other here as to whats being asked. The OP asked about things he could do for more power NA. He doesn't even own the car yet. I'm answering his questions by pointing the successes of other tests with said mods. I stated in my original post what my plans for my car were with the Cobra Jet upgrades. I read the article in 5.0 about the Cobra Jet back in June as well and made my decision then the direction I was going and even have a thread on here and on mustangsource discussing it.

Now as far as the "significant loss of midrange", the Comp Cams didn't show real gains until 4900 according to the Brenspeed testing last year. But I guess that just comes with the VCT lockout(which is what I'm trying to avoid) required with those cams.(I'm on your side with that one)
COMP’s ’11 5.0 Cams Dynoed on Brenspeed Mustang, Also Now Shipping - StangTV

That thread I posted earlier, look at his mods, he pretty much took it to Roadrunner spec so to speak with a few extras. His baseline he stated was 350rwhp and 320rwt and ended with 522rwhp and 378rwt. He gained 172hp & 58lb-ft of torque. That isn't anything to scoff at in my eyes. 4000-7700 rpm was where the majority of his gains were according to the dyno plots he posted and for us Boss guys, I'm sure thats where we would be anyway during acceleration.
http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/2011-mustangs-354/860481-review-naturally-aspirated-522rwhp-build.html

 

[kbroush]

Yes, your shop should see consistent baseline numbers on the Boss regardless whether it reads high or low...this only tells you that their dyno is consistent, and nothing about the "true" hp numbers of the Boss 302.

I agree. My last car dynoes 440rwhp on one dyno and overf 480rwhp on another one with little done to the car. I also have heard that dynojet dynos do read high so I never though I had some factory freak. I was expecting around 380rwhp when I had my Boss dynoed.

 

[guarnibl]

Just curious, if you didn't want to supercharge the Boss engine and wanted to maintain the naturally aspirated theme and high revving. Do you install new pistons and heads to get a higher compression? Who offers these packages? What would be the price per 1hp increase?

Just a thought.

thanks

Honestly adding a tune, full exhaust (front to back), and cold-air intake was netting people quite a bit of power (70 or so I believe to the wheels).

 

[twistedneck]

Going down this path the tune is the hardest part to get right. You need a tuner who can take the car for many dyno runs to sweep the new cobra jet intake and exhuast cams, air fuel, etc.. at every 500rpm.

Also, questions that have not been answered to me.

#1 - why do you need cam phaser limiters with the comp cams and not with the CJ cams? the stock boss exhaust cams are 211 duration @ 0.050" lift (same duration as GT but 13mm vs 11mm lift). the stage 3 comp cams are 236 duration @50 lift with only 11mm total lift, and the cobra jet cams are about 233 @50 lift with 13mm of total valve lift. this leads me to believe there is some other reason why the cobra jet cams do not make contact with the pistons.

#2. using the cobra jet intake and TB will surely require a new tune, and to make use of that you need to run 7800+ rpm (cj intake has resonant frquency at 7750). its going to be a while before we see tunes that optimize power under the curve.

#3. be careful not to add a low rev limiter with the boss, as the engine uses the same oil pump gears as the coyote and those are prone to fracure under a rev limit situation.

#4. E85 is obvious if you have enough pumps nearby and are not doign too much traveling with you boss. 10HP but not only that, the pistons wont fracture and it will resist leaning out.

#5. cobra jet crank trigger wheel would be ideal if you are going to go 7800 and above although Shaun does this no problem with his tunes. Still, if you crack the clutch make sure to get one since the short block can take it if you are easy on the oil pump (no high boost, no two step rev limiters, etc..) - Granted the stock coyote motors used by JPC bounce off the limiter all the time in NA trim and dont fracture. Maybe those come with the better gears.

 

[AZBOSS]

CJ Intake, TB, Competition Pulse Ring crank trigger from FRPP, SOLID tune

 

[Highway Star]

This is a repost. But if you have any questions about cost Pm me. I can telll you ways to save money given that i have done this already:
Several people have expressed interest in a naturally aspirated Coyote build. The Dyno numbers have already been posted. You can see the car here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfpM9IUoI4k, 2011 Mustang GT Dyno Print Out 520 RWHP - YouTube, Featured: Carlo Spiga’s 2011 Ford Mustang GT | Mustangs Daily
I wanted to share the changed characteristics of the car as a result of the build. First, it is a different car. There is not much left in the way of variable cam timing due the phase limiters. The car will remind you. For instance, if you are in third leisurly taking a corner at 1700 rpm drinking your coffee, the engine will belch, the car will stall and you will spill coffe all over your new work shirt. Of course that did not happen to me. One must now pay more attention when driving.

I cannot compare this car to anything else because there is nothing else that I have driven like it. The cams are not heard at idle but step into it at 3000 rpm and you will hear the blah,blah blah, sound followed quickly by a scream like she was getting eaten by a shark. All the way to 7700 rpm. Acceleration achieves hyperspace at about 4500 rpm. It is hard to keep off the upper rpm band, especially with this 3.73 gearing. It drives like a European Sports Car with a Muscle car sound. I don't know how many European Sports Cars have this kind of acceleration though. None that I could afford that is for sure.

The engine achieves it's torque peak at 6550 close to the former redline. The powerband is so wide . . .that this is just the most fun car I have ever driven. It does not have the neck snapping torque of the 2013 GT500, but this car is a different experience. It is essentially a souped up Boss.

The car is easy to drive around town as long as you pay attention. I went to Gt500 mufflers and they are the right note and not so loud as to attract unwanted attention. I have not gotten any times on it, but this car is very fast and mid to high 11's on street tires would not surprise me. The high redline lets me take advantage of gearing so much better than any other car I have had. I am just addicted to it now. If I could, I would push this right to 8400. The engine has been balanced and blueprinted and we are confident it could handle it.

Naturally aspirated is more expensive but I think it is ultimately more rewarding because it really requires better driving to take advantage of the powerband.

 

[Highway Star]

You must be corrected.

I have read that and other threads discussing that build...I'm not sure what your point is, no offense intended.

If your point is to demonstrate peak hp numbers...then it isn't really relevant because peak hp is neither useable (occurring at the very tip top of the power band) nor is it reproducible from dyno to dyno.

If your point is to show the yield of comp cams, then please link the baseline dyno and the dyno after swapping cams. If it is truly a baseline to comp cams comparison then, as I stated above, the most dramatic change is the significant loss of midrange TQ and power (or what I like to refer to as the meat of the power band).

You are so wrong that i do not know where to begin. First, your statement that the car does not produce useable horsepower. Absolute nonsense. With the 3.73 gears the whole powerband is available to me and I can and do shift at 7500 rpm. I have had both supercharged and naturally aspirated built vehicles. This is superior on the street and track. because I do not have mega torque at low rpms, I can actually hook up as many supercharged people have found out to their detriment. Also, while out at Willow Springs on a 102 degree day, my car ran cool while all the other supercharged vehicle were heat soaked and coughing up fluid.

Second, this loss of mid range torque you talk about simply does not exist in any meaningful sense. i have slightly less torque below 4000 rpm. It is not noticeable. What is noticeable is the increase in torque horsepower and acceleration From 4000 to 7700. I live there and it is not hard to get there my friend. Takes about 1.5 seconds of throttle. I do not know what meat of the powerband you are talking about but I invite you to drive my vehicle any time you are in town. If you don't agree with me after a canyon run, i'll buy you a steak dinner. :beer: The beauty of the naturally aspirated build is now you can use your whole tach. epper:

Third this was a loaded dyno. A 2013 GT ran 560rwHP to my 522RWHP on this same dyno. This more or less confirms my approximate crank HP estimation of 612HP. BTW ferrari's prduce their HP at 8500 rpm and above. they believe it is useable HP. And if you drive my car, i promise you, you will agree.:rolling:

Fourth, the shear joy of going through the gears and listening to the engine is worth it in and of itself. is is just the best thing I have ever done rto any of my cars. After having done this, I WILL NEVER SUPERCHARGE AGAIN. I have had not one single problem or even thrown a code since I did this. car runs ice cold. No worries about excess cylinder pressure. My internals are forged. this engine is bulletproof. you could easliy race it.

 

[BADBOSS]

and this...
Braille Battery USA &nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp Lighter • Stronger • Faster -

 

[Highway Star]

Correction on Torque numbers.

I misspoke. After reviewing some dyno sheets I compared before and after torque numbers on a Clayton loaded Dyno. At 3500 rpms before engine build torque was 338 lbs. After intake /cam/head combo build torque number was 320. AT 4000 rpm, post build vehicle was up 4 ft lbs. At 5000rpms it was up 8 lbs. At 6000 post build engine is up 35 lbs. At 6500 rpm, torque is up 50 ft lbs. At 7000 rpm torque is up 60 ft lbs. To have an engine that never turns over . . . well there is nothing like it. The torque loss down low is negligible and not noticeable. Did I mention the sound of the cams? On that dyno teh engine turned out 504 rwhp on a very stingy loaded dyno. Torque numbers on the 522 rwhp run are higher still in the low and midranges. That is the tune I run it on now. this car flys and if one is an enthusiasts and has the cojones, I encourage people to go for it. i think 580rwhp naturall aspirated is possible with an 8400 rpm spin. it is much cheaper than it was when i didi it.

 

[BlackNDecker]

You are so wrong that i do not know where to begin. First, your statement that the car does not produce useable horsepower. Absolute nonsense. With the 3.73 gears the whole powerband is available to me and I can and do shift at 7500 rpm. I have had both supercharged and naturally aspirated built vehicles. This is superior on the street and track. because I do not have mega torque at low rpms, I can actually hook up as many supercharged people have found out to their detriment. Also, while out at Willow Springs on a 102 degree day, my car ran cool while all the other supercharged vehicle were heat soaked and coughing up

Thanks for the reply. I did not mis-speak....peak HP is unuseable. No matter how you try to bend logic, peak hp by definition occurs at the very tip top of the power band (that's why it's called "peak" hp)....this is not useable power.

You are trying to bend my words...particularly with your Ferrari analogy. Area under the curve and gearing is what matters in a road race car (I.e. the type of racing a Ferrari was built for).

Every Comp Cams dyno Ive seen published in MM&FF shows a loss of midrange power. You may have the magical unicorn car, but honestly, I don't care what your butt dyno tells you....post your before and after dyno graphs or GTFO.

 

[BlackNDecker]

Going down this path the tune is the hardest part to get right. You need a tuner who can take the car for many dyno runs to sweep the new cobra jet intake and exhuast cams, air fuel, etc.. at every 500rpm.

Also, questions that have not been answered to me.

#1 - why do you need cam phaser limiters with the comp cams and not with the CJ cams? the stock boss exhaust cams are 211 duration @ 0.050" lift (same duration as GT but 13mm vs 11mm lift). the stage 3 comp cams are 236 duration @50 lift with only 11mm total lift, and the cobra jet cams are about 233 @50 lift with 13mm of total valve lift. this leads me to believe there is some other reason why the cobra jet cams do not make contact with the pistons.

#2. using the cobra jet intake and TB will surely require a new tune, and to make use of that you need to run 7800+ rpm (cj intake has resonant frquency at 7750). its going to be a while before we see tunes that optimize power under the curve.

#3. be careful not to add a low rev limiter with the boss, as the engine uses the same oil pump gears as the coyote and those are prone to fracure under a rev limit situation.

#4. E85 is obvious if you have enough pumps nearby and are not doign too much traveling with you boss. 10HP but not only that, the pistons wont fracture and it will resist leaning out.

#5. cobra jet crank trigger wheel would be ideal if you are going to go 7800 and above although Shaun does this no problem with his tunes. Still, if you crack the clutch make sure to get one since the short block can take it if you are easy on the oil pump (no high boost, no two step rev limiters, etc..) - Granted the stock coyote motors used by JPC bounce off the limiter all the time in NA trim and dont fracture. Maybe those come with the better gears.

Great points! I wondered the same about the phase limiter requirement with the Comp Cams....and the dyno tune is critical.

 

[twistedneck]

Great points! I wondered the same about the phase limiter requirement with the Comp Cams....and the dyno tune is critical.

Thanks BlankNDecker.. this is quite a motor.

i wish we could get those answers.. i would love to have Shaun at AED handle my winter mods but its $1800 to ship it there and back. Alternates by me are Livernois around the corner and BES racing engines 250miles away in Cincinnati.

You have to admit, the mods performed by Highway Star are exactly what a lot of us want to do to bring out the best in our engines. Just like in F1, the only way to make more power is to rev the hell out of it and keep it efficient at those revs. Torque is pretty much fixed w/o a power adder, so is power curve with exception to the stock intakes F150 optimized boost 3500-4500.. so the higher it revs the more power it makes.

that only works in a mustang if you have enough flow and matching cam timing events. I'm sure you guys know all this but its quite possible that he did gain a ton of average power depending on how long he spends 7000+ where that motor shines. if it were a spec series they would limit the air flow (i.e. boss intake restrictor of 60mm). So how is it that its slower in seat of the pants if he is doing exactly the mods needed to pump more air?

 

[BlackNDecker]

Thanks BlankNDecker.. this is quite a motor.

i wish we could get those answers.. i would love to have Shaun at AED handle my winter mods but its $1800 to ship it there and back. Alternates by me are Livernois around the corner and BES racing engines 250miles away in Cincinnati.

You have to admit, the mods performed by Highway Star are exactly what a lot of us want to do to bring out the best in our engines. Just like in F1, the only way to make more power is to rev the hell out of it and keep it efficient at those revs. Torque is pretty much fixed w/o a power adder, so is power curve with exception to the stock intakes F150 optimized boost 3500-4500.. so the higher it revs the more power it makes.

that only works in a mustang if you have enough flow and matching cam timing events. I'm sure you guys know all this but its quite possible that he did gain a ton of average power depending on how long he spends 7000+ where that motor shines. if it were a spec series they would limit the air flow (i.e. boss intake restrictor of 60mm). So how is it that its slower in seat of the pants if he is doing exactly the mods needed to pump more air?

Yes I agree with your points. I'm not saying Highway Star didn't make more power....it's quite obvious he did. I am glad he took the plung and pushed the envelope.

If you scroll up, however, you will note that he told me "I am wrong on so many levels."...the opposite is true, I haven't said anything incorrect in this thread. I'm just asking to see his dyno graph to compare it to every other graph I've seen with Comp Cams.

We all want more HP...this is obvious. What we appear to be disagreeing on is where in the powerband we want that power. I am curious where in the powerband the Boss 302R cams will deliver their power? This is a big unknown.

Lastly, I would argue TQ is not fixed...high compression pistons will bump TQ throughout the powerband and shift the entire curve to the left...this is why they *should* complement the CJ intake so well (because the CJ intake will shift the curve to the right).

 

[Highway Star]

Thanks for the reply. I did not mis-speak....peak HP is unuseable. No matter how you try to bend logic, peak hp by definition occurs at the very tip top of the power band (that's why it's called "peak" hp)....this is not useable power.

You are trying to bend my words...particularly with your Ferrari analogy. Area under the curve and gearing is what matters in a road race car (I.e. the type of racing a Ferrari was built for).

Every Comp Cams dyno Ive seen published in MM&FF shows a loss of midrange power. You may have the magical unicorn car, but honestly, I don't care what your butt dyno tells you....post your before and after dyno graphs or GTFO.

GTFO?

Okay BlackNDecker. I was trying to be nice but you asked for it.

1) You do not know what you are talking about. You read a magazine and come in here and opine based on a article that you have seen. First, there are not that many dynographs on comp cams. I know. I have looked long before you. Also, My information is first hand I have built several of these cars. And I take them to the track. You read magazine articles and opine that you are an expert.

2) Peak horsepower is useable. I achieve peak horsepower at 7700 rpm. I drive the car at 7700 rpm and I have witnesses. Voila, I just used that peak horsepower you were saying was unuseable.

3) Who gives a crap about area under the torque curve. That is just something you read in an article that you are regurgitating on here. The car makes horsepower by rpm. Being able to spin high rpm allow you to take advantage of gearing. If you drag race or if you road race high rpms are your friend. This is true on the street as well by the way.

4) I have to scan and upload my dyno sheets to prove to you what exactly? . . . what i have already told you? I gave you the numbers. I have posted my dyno run. The before and after numbers I gave you were with the car with headers cold air and a tune vs the fully built engine. I gave you exact numbers from 3500 to 7000 rpm. They show very little loss of torque from 3000-3500. And In fact it showed a gain from 4000 up. That was not a butt dyno example. And that was not even the peak dyno run.

5) You are also not precise in your terminology. What exactly is midrange torque? I am defining it from 3500 to 5500. I gave you the torque numbers that proves you are wrong. Sure comp cams push your torque curve to the right. That is a good thing. But if you do the entire build heads / intake and cams, as I did and you did not, you would see torque gains at virtually all rpms compared to the pure stock engine.

6) When it comes to racing, Horsepower is what it is all about not torque. Anybody who knows cars knows that. If performance was about torque than deisel trucks would win the Indianapolis 500.

6) You state previously and incorrectly that TVCT is eliminated with the use of comp cams. Not true the phase limiters simply limits the degree of cam timing. you can lock them out if you choose.

7) So BlacknDecker How about you GTFO, because you have done nothing but read. While you read. I do. I have first hand knowledge that you seem to count as a weakness. The cams in combination with intake and head porting will yield one hell of an engine. i know first hand. Disagree if you want to. If you want low end grunt get a supercharger. If you want to produce one hell of an engine and an incredible driving experience then cams are a good choice as part of a more comprehensive engine build or alone. With 3.73 gears you are always in the powerband in regular street driving. That is a fact.

 

[Highway Star]

Also, high compression pistons are not the best idea unless you have access to really good gas. Which we in California do not have.

 

[Rebel302]

Highway Star,

I can say your build impressed me...I started my thread back in June after reading yours asking questions as I chose to go the NA route but using CJ parts to upgrade my LS(since the article in 5.0 with Ford racing showed the CJ used the Roadrunner as a starting point). The one thing I'm not doing is raising compression. I agree with you there and I honestly don't see a need to in order to reach my goal. If I wanted neck snapping grunt, I would have bought a Shelby or a GT and S/C it. I wanted mine to be a N/A banshee

The intake manifold and intake kit isn't out yet and I haven't purchased the cams, but I have just about everything else to get rolling and since I'm in the desert no need to rush and buy everything to have it just sit there(even though I already started when I can catch a good deal

.

 

[twistedneck]

One of you boss owners from Cali needs to get the big cj cams and intake, twin 65 TB, headers, then let Shaun tune that thing so he can mail order tune the rest of us

 

[Highway Star]

Go for it.

Highway Star,

I can say your build impressed me...I started my thread back in June after reading yours asking questions as I chose to go the NA route but using CJ parts to upgrade my LS(since the article in 5.0 with Ford racing showed the CJ used the Roadrunner as a starting point). The one thing I'm not doing is raising compression. I agree with you there and I honestly don't see a need to in order to reach my goal. If I wanted neck snapping grunt, I would have bought a Shelby or a GT and S/C it. I wanted mine to be a N/A banshee

The intake manifold and intake kit isn't out yet and I haven't purchased the cams, but I have just about everything else to get rolling and since I'm in the desert no need to rush and buy everything to have it just sit there(even though I already started when I can catch a good deal

.

That is just great to hear. You will not regret it. I am really interested to see what the cobrajet intake along with cams would do. With your LS you can push the rpm range further than me. If you port the heads . . . you can go 560-580 at the wheels and that would be a stunning achievement. And driving these cars is just such a great experience. It truly feels as if you are driving a very driveable racecar. And the durability I think is great. i have some 12 full out dyno pulls and track days and a few canyons here and there and the engine is just bulletproof. If you go through with it, you will love it!:rockon:

 

[Mnstr50]

Hey everyone- I wanted to add my two cents.

I've had Shaun tune my car on the Boss intake manifold, cat delete, and stock air-box. I "am" running 47# injectors and E85. The E85 has re-introduced the torque that could have been lost on the base tune and the swap to the Boss intake manifold. I only say "could have been lost" because I didn't recognize ANY loss switching over (of course, this is also why I went with Shaun's tune). With that said, I too am leaning toward the NA build. Here is my take;

I would port the heads, and get the cams first and run it on the stock Boss intake manifold (at least this is my plan). I believe the large FRPP 84.5mm or 90mm TB would be an important upgrade (or one from a competitor), and so would a solid cold-air intake (Shaun prefers the PJ CF from Airaid). If the end result is not to the owner's satisfaction; the CJ intake can "then" be swapped on.

The "magic" is truly in the heads, just as much as it is in the cams. I'm also waiting to see what the FRPP 13mm cams will yield. I'm torn on the ported head of choice. Livernois is clearly putting out a reputable product, but I want to see the stage 2 heads from JPC (large valves and more intimate port work). Of course, at a hefty price, I'm not sure if anyone is going to jump on them right away.

BTW- I can (and have) spun my current combo to 8K without issues (Shaun's tune allows for this on the stock GT's, and even higher on STOCK Boss').

 

[kbroush]

Man, this really blew up! I too agree that peak HP is useable. It all depends on what you want the car for. Obviously most people who buy a Boss buy it specifically to race on a road course or autocross to fully use the car, at least I know I did. So technically if you were to build the engine to where it moves the power band farther north than I do not think that is a bad day. If you wand "streetability" then I can see wanting more low end torque and not worry so much about peak hp.