Steigemeier Stage V Torque Plate Issues

[IronTerp]

yes. it has happened plenty of times. I just finished fixing a car from this happening.

I believe that was a different deal TV. Mark's intercooler cracked from the inside because the coolant froze in subfreezing outside temps and there was no antifreeze in the mixture. Simply water. We're discussing whether foreign products from the bottom of the blower could damage the top of the intercooler face.

 

[IronTerp]

The one pictured that has a chunk fallen out, I believe was vibrating at a certain resonant frequency. That corner was unattached, and with a combination of supercharger air pulses, engine/supercharger vibrations and harmonics, it would really take off vibrating when ever it's resonant frequency was present.

This would eventually work harden the area that was experiencing the most movement and it would break.

Interesting hypothesis Jimmy. I wonder how many miles were on this particular Stage V before this piece cam loose? It was felt by the Cobra's owner that this damage caused the car to be way down on power. While the loose piece could of been making a heck of a racket bouncing around the space between the bottom of the blower and top of the intercooler, not sure how much this could of affected performance.

 

[TRBO VNM]

I believe that was a different deal TV. Mark's intercooler cracked from the inside because the coolant froze in subfreezing outside temps and there was no antifreeze in the mixture. Simply water. We're discussing whether foreign products from the bottom of the blower could damage the top of the intercooler face.

I understand what is being discussed dwight. he asked if it was punctured, could that cause the engine to hydrolock. the answer is yes. whether the intercooler is punctured or cracks from water, once it is leaking, it will go into the lower intake and then the engine and hydrolock.

either way, if there is a foreign object in there or piece breaking off like posted in here, there is risk of puncturing the intercooler depending on the size of the object and who knows how much it is banging around between the rotors and the intercooler

 

[Jimmysidecarr]

Interesting hypothesis Jimmy. I wonder how many miles were on this particular Stage V before this piece cam loose? It was felt by the Cobra's owner that this damage caused the car to be way down on power. While the loose piece could of been making a heck of a racket bouncing around the space between the bottom of the blower and top of the intercooler, not sure how much this could of affected performance.

The performance repercussions I really am not familiar enough to comment. I just thought about the basic physics that appear to be at play here with regard to the weld failures and plates cracking.

Even valve float is a result of resonant harmonics, which is also altered/adjustable by changes in mass, and not just seat pressure.

I'm quite sure POSI could tell us how the torque plate functions, I'm sure Bob could too.

I went twin screw right from a stock pulley Eaton, so I never really researched the actual science and air flow of the whole porting the blower movement.

That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it ! LOL!

 

[Satyr]

LOL @ Magnafluxing Aluminum. Try Xrays. Sorry I shouldn't make fun.

I have an idea why even thicker plates could crack and separate besides the obvious under penetration of some of the welds.

The one pictured that has a chunk fallen out, I believe was vibrating at a certain resonant frequency. That corner was unattached, and with a combination of supercharger air pulses, engine/supercharger vibrations and harmonics, it would really take off vibrating when ever it's resonant frequency was present.

This would eventually work harden the area that was experiencing the most movement and it would break.

That's what I think has happened on the ones I've seen so far.

This is assuming the resonant frequencies of the weld and the torque plate materials are within a range that can be reached by the vibrations produced by the engine/eaton. This is why it is important to determine the quality of this aluminum, as the RF of it will be different depending on its alloy components.

By the way, the welds on my stage 5+ had been broken after only a few thousand miles of use. It was suspicioned that they were broken during shipping, but I have a hard time believing that (and if it's the case, it certainly wasn't going to stand up to additional motor vibration). I don't have any pictures, but the top weld was entirely cracked.

EDIT: A solution to this problem, albeit an expensive one, would be to use weld with a high volume of silver, as silver's RF in ionic form is around 900 tetrahertz.

 

[latemodelracer2]

so, what are the symptoms here? besides actually removing the Eaton, would there be any way to tell if the plate/welds are failing? I guess the only way to tell is when we here a whole bunch of rattling coming from the eaton?

MIne made a light grinding noise at a certain rpm both times it broke. I and my tuner both said it sounded like a dremel in there going at it.

 

[Satyr]

By the way, does anybody know the amount of vibration that our engines create, roughly?
With a proper calculation of this, you could determine which materials would be best suited for the torque plate, to prevent any type of strain caused by RF.

 

[STAMPEDE3]

I don't see it. It would have to hit the perfect RF for that piece to break out like that and probably sustain it for a little while.

Bumps in the road, Motor vibrations, yea they are there but that isn't what causes that type of failure.

Blowers run very smooth in comparison. If they had vibrations like most think of vibrations they would fly apart.

We got a couple twin screws the size of a car turning 15-30,000 at work and they are smooth enough to sleep on. If you can get past the noise of the 4800V motor or the steam turbine.

 

[Satyr]

I don't see it. It would have to hit the perfect RF for that piece to break out like that and probably sustain it for a little while.

Bumps in the road, Motor vibrations, yea they are there but that isn't what causes that type of failure.

Blowers run very smooth in comparison. If they had vibrations like most think of vibrations they would fly apart.

That's what I was getting to. Considering the precision of the rotor assembly in a blower, RF at such a frequency to break welds apart and chunk pieces of aluminum would certainly cause enough torsional stress to afford rotor contact, I would think.

I think that Sid may have been getting at something with the theory of simple expansion due to different heating/cooling/expansion coefficients. Some of the metallurgists would have to come in here to straighten out the details or determine whether or not this is even likely, but I don't see "weak" aluminum alone being the cause of chunking like what is seen above, and that certainly doesn't explain the breaks in the weld...I wouldn't think.

 

[JMD0346]

We can all speculate.

What sucks is there is a fella who could clear it up if he would post. Post the truth. I dont believe he will though. I mean he's all about business and the dollar. I mean the guy posted his advertisement in the other thread instead of explanation. Thats pretty ballsy imo. Hey my product is sub-standard but we got a sale going on. Buy somethin!



Im a nobody here like everybody else. As a loyal member here and a past patron of steig I say something other than a thread that doesnt get deleted should be done. I say freeze vendor status and limit access to this and the other thread only until its resolved. IMO if nothing is done on our end it wont get done. If I offend anyone with that I apologize but I believe Im right on this one.

 

[STAMPEDE3]

That's what I was getting to. Considering the precision of the rotor assembly in a blower, RF at such a frequency to break welds apart and chunk pieces of aluminum would certainly cause enough torsional stress to afford rotor contact, I would think.

I think that Sid may have been getting at something with the theory of simple expansion due to different heating/cooling/expansion coefficients. Some of the metallurgists would have to come in here to straighten out the details or determine whether or not this is even likely, but I don't see "weak" aluminum alone being the cause of chunking like what is seen above, and that certainly doesn't explain the breaks in the weld...I wouldn't think.

I agree, I think the welds have more to do with what was said before, Welding to cast.

That chunk was some kind of freak thing IMO.

I will try to catch up with our metallurgists department at work tomorrow and see what they have to say.

 

[stickman09]

MIne made a light grinding noise at a certain rpm both times it broke. I and my tuner both said it sounded like a dremel in there going at it.

I can also vouch for this noise due to the multiple times riding in the car, datalogging, being at the dyno, etc.

Obviously there is a serious problem here. Latemodelracer2 and I during the period of time when he had the Steg setup discussed this over and over. Hell the one of the blowers sent from Steg locked up one night cruising through town. I have helped pull the ported s/c off about each time and after a while it gets a pain in the ass.

IMHO i don't see the need for the plate. Posi has made the same/more power out of his port design as Steg.

Maybe we can get an answer or solid solution to this problem now that it is clearly out in the open.

Until then... :beer:

 

[Brutal Metal]

A painstaking but piece of mind option for Stage V owners would be to remove the Eaton, take that ridiculous torque plate off that has shown to produce little if anything, bolt her back on and send Steig a bill for the beer and chicken wings!

 

[AntiHeightPunk]

We can all speculate.

What sucks is there is a fella who could clear it up if he would post. Post the truth. I dont believe he will though. I mean he's all about business and the dollar. I mean the guy posted his advertisement in the other thread instead of explanation. Thats pretty ballsy imo. Hey my product is sub-standard but we got a sale going on. Buy somethin!



Im a nobody here like everybody else. As a loyal member here and a past patron of steig I say something other than a thread that doesnt get deleted should be done. I say freeze vendor status and limit access to this and the other thread only until its resolved. IMO if nothing is done on our end it wont get done. If I offend anyone with that I apologize but I believe Im right on this one.

100% agree, it will send a message that either he can fix it or leave...too many of our mustang brothers have something on there car that isnt being dealt with....even though they come with a "100% stand behind warantee"

 

[Boobinspector]

I am an aviation structural mechanic in the navy. Our civilian welder and navy welder from what I have seen would never weld sheet metal to pot metal. Nor weld on pot metal that is going on an aircraft big no no. The only alluminums we use is 6061. For the most part.

Just as it has been said it does look like steigi uses a inferior aluminium if it is even aluminium. Also the number 6061 stands for a make up of the aluminium. 0 metal is softer more pliable, other words easier to bend without cracking. When you get up to T-6 it is harder other words. For its thickness it would be comparable to its thickness in steel.

Any way you look at it not a hole lot of thought was put into this aftermarket design. Also crap metal was used. Improper welds and using incorrect equipment to do the job. As was said before. Using a MIG instead of a TIG welder. If this was something we were working on at my command our QA would have a field day on us.

Solution remove sheet metal, or try to find a better way. Working with inferior techniques and material will always get you the same results....S###. Sorry a salors solution.

 

[poniesviii]

Couple thoughts.

Keep in mind the harder the alloy the more brittle it is. If you don't want something to crack, make sure it's not too hard.

And the one guy that was talking about welding together two different thicknesses being wrong, you don't know what you're talking about. The rule of thumb on that is your bead only needs to be as thick as the thinnest material being welded.

Another thing, MIG is just as strong as TIG. The reason Tig is preferred is because you can tell how well it's penetrated via visual inspection. MIG can look good and it can still be weak. With an experienced welder the MIG can be just as strong as TIG.

I'm surprised so many things can be said about one obvious problem. Of course the thing is shaking around creating cracks, if it wasn't they wouldn't be possible. Either it needs to be made stable or dismissed from being part of the procedure.

I'm surprised steig isn't in here either. That's kinda crappy. He is listed as an LLC guys, in case something did go wrong with your motor. I'm sure there's some insurance there.

Most of all I'm surprised this is a re-occuring problem and they're still being produced in what sounds to be the same manner.

Good luck everybody.

 

[black 10th vert]

Couple thoughts.

Keep in mind the harder the alloy the more brittle it is. If you don't want something to crack, make sure it's not too hard.

And the one guy that was talking about welding together two different thicknesses being wrong, you don't know what you're talking about. The rule of thumb on that is your bead only needs to be as thick as the thinnest material being welded.

Another thing, MIG is just as strong as TIG. The reason Tig is preferred is because you can tell how well it's penetrated via visual inspection. MIG can look good and it can still be weak. With an experienced welder the MIG can be just as strong as TIG.

I'm surprised so many things can be said about one obvious problem. Of course the thing is shaking around creating cracks, if it wasn't they wouldn't be possible. Either it needs to be made stable or dismissed from being part of the procedure.

I'm surprised steig isn't in here either. That's kinda crappy. He is listed as an LLC guys, in case something did go wrong with your motor. I'm sure there's some insurance there.

Most of all I'm surprised this is a re-occuring problem and they're still being produced in what sounds to be the same manner.

Good luck everybody.

^+1, this guy speaks the truth! In the case of these plates, you would not want aluminum in the -T6 category, because that is a hardened state, even before the plate is subjected to welding. You would want an aluminum that is a much softer alloy than 6061-T6, that is for sure. As for the TIG/MIG debate, I fully agree that an experienced welder can make very strong welds even with a MIG, however, MIG is basically designed for a "production" welding environment, and in this case, TIG should be the only process used, as the quality of the welds, and their penetration are paramount! With the rpms these blowers spin at, you can not play around with even a chance of failure when welding crap onto them! Steig should know this - especially since he is supposedly an authorized re-builder for Eaton!

I am really pissed that my blower needs to come back off again to deal with this crap! Steig damn well better step into this thread with an explanation of how he plans to address this, or should be banned from this site inmo. Hell, I've seen members banned here for way less than this!:bash:

 

[utfan98]

That would be odd, considering I told Dwight to start this thread.




Anyone else that has had issues with broken welds on their blowers should post up pics too. I larger sampling size of failed weld could help shed some more light on where the problem is originating from.

Could it be that the cast case, welds, and plate all have different coefficients of expansion and what we are seeing here it the result of thermal stress on the various components (basically the case pulling away from the plate, or vice versa, as it expands)? Any opinions on that?

After reading the locked thread and now this post, I see new faces with the same problem. How big of a "sampling" size of failed 5's does one need? Bob and the community know that welding problems exist, light has been shown. Does one need a 15 million watt candle spotlight? Why should the person "post up pics too", implying the need to contiune to proove it? The problem are the WELDS. Let Bob figure out where the problem is originating from, it's his product, he designed it, he marketed it, he can fixed it.

I am not a mellgurist or welder by no means, but think why welds fail in general. COE's, welding of dissimilar metals, vibration, half ass rushed jobs, etc. I'll leave it up to Bob.

 

[sc98cbra]

I'll leave it up to Bob.

We'll, he's acting like Toyota. Taking too long to fix a problem that should never have been an issue in the first place. Bob won't take blame for any engine that locks up due to his design, will he?

Didn't think so.

 

[IronTerp]

Here's the latest torque plate design for the Stage V. These pics were just recently posted up by Steigemeier so it's hard to say how long this aluminum/weld/procedure has been in place. Hard to tell the thickness of the plate in the pics, but the welds appear much improved. Steigemeier has always seemed to keep good records of their port sales/procedures and I would still be interested to see how many Stage V's have come out with the initial plate/weld system, and how many have the updated procedure.