Ported Eaton Results E-85 VS 110 Octane

[BADASS03SVT]

Timing is not the only reason E85 makes more power.

I have personally seen a KB 2.8H car running 22* timing make 785 on C16. Drained fuel retuned and with 22* on E85 make 846 RWHP first pull.

Yes I know this is another twin screw car but it does show it works!

Try to do that with ANY fuel that you can get at the pump for around $2.50 per gallon. There is none!

So did Harold's car on ModFords....same timing...C16 to E85 was like 685 to 720. That still doesn't mean its going to do that to an inefficient ported eaton car. There is obviously more to it than just fuel and timing. It's not "plug and play" like so many say it is. I still have yet to see results from people i know that compare to everyones 50rwhp. and imo, its not a TRUE test unless both are tested in the same day, same correction factors etc. Too many variables.

 

[BADASS03SVT]

ok im confused, everybody is defending e-85 because someone says it only made a couple more hp, said it was a wash(posi), even if it made the exact same power its still 60-70 % cheaper than 110 or c-13, yes you use a little more fuel , im more curious as to how much posi's duty cycle went up since he is still returnless and ran the exact same fuel system for both fuels, clearly premium gas is on the rise again , and if available to them, who wouldnt want an extra 15-30 hp for the same price they are paying for gas now, i mean nobody has talked about his fuel system, he has 60's, bap,modified fpdm, twin gt pumps, thats not that much for a heavily ported eaton car, i mean youn dont really get into spending alot til you talk about return style with new rails and fuel line and fittings and fore hats, seems to me that what he proved is pretty awesome for the eaton guys, if you want a race gas tune all the time and you have access to e-85 you could do it for about $900 if you shopped around for some used parts, thats starting from scratch most ported eaton guys go overkill anyway and already have a bap and fpdm and gt pumps , or maybe im just missing something LOL

it is cheaper but Posi also runs nitrous in the form of a 100 shot (probably more this year) and I would say on E85 that fuel system prob wont make it. So in order for him to run it all the time, now he has to invest over a grand to make it work right. Some people just don't want to do that. Hell Ive had my stock fuel system up until now...lol

 

[Posi]

how much power you're making on pump posi? and what timing 20-21?? i made 502whp@ 21 degrees..i was also thinking for my next mod to do a race gas tune..so 25degrees is max for what this cars can take on race gas?im leaning on race gas for now for the same reason..dont want to change my entire fuel system now..also$$$$..

Honestly I don't know because we just tune my car for race gas. Then pull a little timing and I'm good to go for the street tune. On my car every degree of timing is 4-6hp on the race gas though. I run 23*'s on the street.

 

[BADASS03SVT]

Any questions?

yes....why is the increase of power going DOWN on E85 when the timing is increased....

20* - 15
22* - 12
25* - 2

 

[Posi]

Any questions?

This test was only Race Tune vs E-85 Tune. Period, and you guys are reading more into it than what I wanted to do this for. I know E-85 is cheaper and it's the winner for that clearly. It's not the winner for just being Race numbers for the track only though at 1 or 2hp for crying out loud lol. The car is going back on the dyno again also for 4 more pulls this morning. Two for E-85 @ 25*'s and 2 pulls for Race Gas @ 25*'s. It's going to spit out the exact same numbers.

I did less timing to show gains for E-85 against a Street Tune only. I could care less if it made more power at that level.:shrug:

All we ever hear is E-85 this or that and on my car on the exact same day, same dyno, same weather, same timing, staying strapped down the entire time it made 1 or 2 more hp the other day. Not rumors or anything else from another board or someone none of us know of. This is the best testing that can be done and I did it for the community to know with money out of my own pocket. Not to get it rubbed in my face when the Race Gas was beat by so few hp on what the dyno could have been accountable for or a difference in how much heat the engine could've even had in it compared to another pull. We're talking 1-2hp total.:shrug:

We'll find out here in a little while how it does again today. Race Tunes for both again.

 

[Posi]

Also please stop talking about other cars or other situations in this thread. This thread will be for a ported Eaton car only and the results from it. Not a discussion on twin screws or other cars that saw gains. Those numbers don't mean a thing to me at all or others that are reading this.

Just one car to discuss here and the numbers from it only. I don't care about E-85 or switching this year and only did this for people to learn from it on a ported Eaton car.

Thanks

 

[04sleeper]

So did Harold's car on ModFords....same timing...C16 to E85 was like 685 to 720. That still doesn't mean its going to do that to an inefficient ported eaton car. There is obviously more to it than just fuel and timing. It's not "plug and play" like so many say it is. I still have yet to see results from people i know that compare to everyones 50rwhp. and imo, its not a TRUE test unless both are tested in the same day, same correction factors etc. Too many variables.

I agree. Too many variables. Different states, different dyno's, different tuners. To take this as the "End all end" would be crazy IMO. This is what you are making it out to be. On this "1" car, this means it doesn't work?? :shrug::??:

Either way I am still glad Brian tried this and posted his results. Not many are willing to do that.

yes....why is the increase of power going DOWN on E85 when the timing is increased....

20* - 15
22* - 12
25* - 2

Because clearly the car was reaching MBT. Did the tuner tune for MBT at all RPM's? 2000, 2500, 3000, 3500, 4000, 4500, 5000, etc....??? Steady state on loaded dyno? I would bet to say not. This is the only "True" way to compare in my book. And an auto car starting @ 4600 is NOT what most people have in a street car. So this test is still lacking IMO.

This test was only Race Tune vs E-85 Tune. Period, and you guys are reading more into it than what I wanted to do this for. I know E-85 is cheaper and it's the winner for that clearly. It's not the winner for just being Race numbers for the track only though at 1 or 2hp for crying out loud lol. The car is going back on the dyno again also for 4 more pulls this morning. Two for E-85 @ 25*'s and 2 pulls for Race Gas @ 25*'s. It's going to spit out the exact same numbers.

I did less timing to show gains for E-85 against a Street Tune only. I could care less if it made more power at that level.:shrug:

While you could careless about that, I believe most of the people on here would care seeing as most don't run around burning race gas on the street. So for the majority of the people on here, E85 is clearly better. On an all out race Eaton car, maybe not so much.

All we ever hear is E-85 this or that and on my car on the exact same day, same dyno, same weather, same timing, staying strapped down the entire time it made 1 or 2 more hp the other day. Not rumors or anything else from another board or someone none of us know of. This is the best testing that can be done and I did it for the community to know with money out of my own pocket. Not to get it rubbed in my face when the Race Gas was beat by so few hp on what the dyno could have been accountable for or a difference in how much heat the engine could've even had in it compared to another pull. We're talking 1-2hp total.:shrug:

We'll find out here in a little while how it does again today. Race Tunes for both again.

I never post rumors or what I "Heard". I have been doing this too long to play games like that and I feel you are the same way.

Also please stop talking about other cars or other situations in this thread. This thread will be for a ported Eaton car only and the results from it. Not a discussion on twin screws or other cars that saw gains. Those numbers don't mean a thing to me at all or others that are reading this.

Just one car to discuss here and the numbers from it only. I don't care about E-85 or switching this year and only did this for people to learn from it on a ported Eaton car.

Thanks

The only reason I mention any other cars is because people will read this and may think "This must be for all cars". It's not even a test on what 99% of owners run if you ask me. It is the 1% of all out race eaton owners. So for those 1%'ers, they will get some info that might help them.

Again, thank you for posting your results.

 

[Teej281]

The only input I have here is this...

55 gallon drum of 110=$550 (could be less or more depending on brand and such)

55 gallons of E85 @ $3.25/gal=$178.75 (price is to make up for 30% more fuel need)

For 2rwhp more and a lot more consistency, you get to save $371.25!!! Congrats!!! To me, it seems as if the the E85 is more consistent as you can see by the E85 numbers only varying by 1hp versus the 110 race gas varying by 5hp. Thats minute, but thats probably would be amplified by more power.

You figure that after 3 barrels of race gas you go through you could have the money to upgrade your fuel system to run E85 to the moon and back.

Just saying!

 

[Posi]

Because clearly the car was reaching MBT. Did the tuner tune for MBT at all RPM's? 2000, 2500, 3000, 3500, 4000, 4500, 5000, etc....??? Steady state on loaded dyno? I would bet to say not. This is the only "True" way to compare in my book. And an auto car starting @ 4600 is NOT what most people have in a street car. So this test is still lacking IMO.

No I'm not doing steady state on my car on the dyno. Again this test is for Peak HP numbers only between the two. I guess I should've stated that also.


On an all out race Eaton car, maybe not so much.

That's all the testing is for.

I never post rumors or what I "Heard". I have been doing this too long to play games like that and I feel you are the same way.

Agreed.


The only reason I mention any other cars is because people will read this and may think "This must be for all cars". It's not even a test on what 99% of owners run if you ask me. It is the 1% of all out race eaton owners. So for those 1%'ers, they will get some info that might help them.

Again, thank you for posting your results.

Agreed but people keep taking it off subject and talking about other cars or street cars. Keep it simple and it's Race Gas maximum tune for hp against E-85 maximum tune for hp. That's it.:beer:

 

[04sleeper]

Agreed but people keep taking it off subject and talking about other cars or street cars. Keep it simple and it's Race Gas maximum tune for hp against E-85 maximum tune for hp. That's it.:beer:

:beer:

 

[Posi]

The only input I have here is this...

55 gallon drum of 110=$550 (could be less or more depending on brand and such)

55 gallons of E85 @ $3.25/gal=$178.75 (price is to make up for 30% more fuel need)

For 2rwhp more and a lot more consistency, you get to save $371.25!!! Congrats!!! To me, it seems as if the the E85 is more consistent as you can see by the E85 numbers only varying by 1hp versus the 110 race gas varying by 5hp. Thats minute, but thats probably due to the system being maxed.

You figure that after 3 barrels of race gas you go through you could have the money to upgrade your fuel system to run E85 to the moon and back.

Just saying!

I'll say obviously the 510hp number the car had more heat in it to put the lower number out. That's another reason it's back on the dyno again today. I knew I shouldn't have even posted that run and to make another one.:bash:

It'll take me well over 3 years to use 3 barrels of race gas to get my money out of switching and I can't even say in 3 years if I'll even have my car. So how does that pay off if I sold it before then? $488 < E-85 switch for now. That $488 drum might easily last me a year and a half and not just one year also.

 

[Teej281]

No offense posi, as you're a great guy. But doing an all out, race only setup test just doesnt even cover 5% of the population on here. However, your ported blowers are marketable to just about every terminator owner out there. So what you really SHOULD do is provide a test of what your ported eaton car would run on pump vs. E85. That would be the test to do simply because it covers more of the population that is out there willing to buy your blowers and possibly run this setup rather than run a twin screw.

When you do such a test as to test a race car, its somewhat negligible to do so as race-only guys arent worried about cost of fuel, performance on the street, or what have you. The guys that are racing should be well enough off, or have sponsors, to cover $10/gal race gas as that would be the last thing I would be thinking about when racing. If I were into racing, I'd be worrying about "Now do I have enough money to fix whatever I break racing today?"

E85 is a fuel that was not even meant to be used as a performance oriented fuel. It was meant to be a fuel that was more eco-friendly, but now has gained acclaim in the performance world as a great substitute for PUMP gas 91-93 octane. While most claim to see more power with E85 than they have with leaded race gas, the fact still remains that its more a substitute for pump gas than race gas. If you're racing and hot lapping the fack out of the thing, then it might be a decent fuel to use to help with the heat. Other than that, I know for a fact that most racers are going to stick to their leaded race gas.

Cliffnotes:
1. Testing E85 and Race gas is like comparing apples to tomatoes...the one you dont even know if you consider being in the same type as the other.

2. Race only guys are probably not going to be worried with cost of fuel when they could be blowing transmissions, rear ends, or motors. Price of fuel should be the last thing on their mind. Plus they do not use enough fuel, as you have relayed by your previous post, to make it worth their while to switch.

3. E85 was not even supposed to be used for performance applications, but has been used for such things and doing a great job at it. But it is still a PUMP gas solution to running RACE GAS numbers for pump gas prices.

While it is not feasible for everyone to switch, if you're starting out with a blank slate, you might as well go full tilt and get the necessary setup to run E85.

 

[Shadow Grey 03]

No offense posi, as you're a great guy. But doing an all out, race only setup test just doesnt even cover 5% of the population on here. However, your ported blowers are marketable to just about every terminator owner out there. So what you really SHOULD do is provide a test of what your ported eaton car would run on pump vs. E85. That would be the test to do simply because it covers more of the population that is out there willing to buy your blowers and possibly run this setup rather than run a twin screw.

When you do such a test as to test a race car, its somewhat negligible to do so as race-only guys arent worried about cost of fuel, performance on the street, or what have you. The guys that are racing should be well enough off, or have sponsors, to cover $10/gal race gas as that would be the last thing I would be thinking about when racing. If I were into racing, I'd be worrying about "Now do I have enough money to fix whatever I break racing today?"

E85 is a fuel that was not even meant to be used as a performance oriented fuel. It was meant to be a fuel that was more eco-friendly, but now has gained acclaim in the performance world as a great substitute for PUMP gas 91-93 octane. While most claim to see more power with E85 than they have with leaded race gas, the fact still remains that its more a substitute for pump gas than race gas. If you're racing and hot lapping the fack out of the thing, then it might be a decent fuel to use to help with the heat. Other than that, I know for a fact that most racers are going to stick to their leaded race gas.

Cliffnotes:
1. Testing E85 and Race gas is like comparing apples to tomatoes...the one you dont even know if you consider being in the same type as the other.

2. Race only guys are probably not going to be worried with cost of fuel when they could be blowing transmissions, rear ends, or motors. Price of fuel should be the last thing on their mind. Plus they do not use enough fuel, as you have relayed by your previous post, to make it worth their while to switch.

3. E85 was not even supposed to be used for performance applications, but has been used for such things and doing a great job at it. But it is still a PUMP gas solution to running RACE GAS numbers for pump gas prices.

While it is not feasible for everyone to switch, if you're starting out with a blank slate, you might as well go full tilt and get the necessary setup to run E85.

There isn't a point to running a 93 vs E85 comparison. That's an easy answer. The E85 will make more due to being able to run more timing. Not ground breaking on that one. The race gas was used to show the difference between the gas only and not introduce any other variables, which changing timing between the two would do. Just saying.

 

[Teej281]

Well there is an arguement on how much more E85 has to offer on a ported eaton setup. Some have said 20rwhp, which is pretty close to what the gain was from race gas to E85 at 20* timing.

But regardless, for 2rwhp for posi to switch is not worth it. To those that are just starting out and want to make big power with an eaton, just look. Posi is running a ported eaton with a pulley combo that is just asking for heat soak and is making great power...Race gas power, with stuff that you can get at the pump for like $2.50-3.00/gallon. You need more fuel though, but posi is already running a lot of fuel so if you're going to upgrade, might as well run the cheaper stuff and have the use of the full power you can make all the time, rather than only on race day.

 

[BADASS03SVT]

I agree. Too many variables. Different states, different dyno's, different tuners. To take this as the "End all end" would be crazy IMO. This is what you are making it out to be. On this "1" car, this means it doesn't work?? :shrug::??:

Either way I am still glad Brian tried this and posted his results. Not many are willing to do that.

Because clearly the car was reaching MBT. Did the tuner tune for MBT at all RPM's? 2000, 2500, 3000, 3500, 4000, 4500, 5000, etc....??? Steady state on loaded dyno? I would bet to say not. This is the only "True" way to compare in my book. And an auto car starting @ 4600 is NOT what most people have in a street car. So this test is still lacking IMO.
.

based on "1" car? yeap.....show me another similar car.....

so its reaching MBT on E85 but not on the 110?? 110 still picked up more from 22 to 25. So which is now looking to be the better fuel?

and the auto point is BS. trans makes no difference when you have before and after numbers and are tuning for MAX power....which is ALL this is. No consumption graphs, no cash spent graphs, no who is greener graphs.....MAX HP. and on thie Eaton car each fuel has the same power curve period. You cant argue it one bit.

 

[injfuel]

e-85

ok , who cares whether you go through a barrel of 110 race fuel every year and a half (posi) at this exact moment whith your exact setup which is cheaper for you to run to achieve max horespower with what you have without changing one thing ? and what was your duty cycle increase with the e-85 please

 

[Posi]

ok , who cares whether you go through a barrel of 110 race fuel every year and a half (posi) at this exact moment whith your exact setup which is cheaper for you to run to achieve max horespower with what you have without changing one thing ? and what was your duty cycle increase with the e-85 please

I can't run the Nitrous with the E-85.

Duty Cycle with the 110 octane was--------------72%

Duty Cycle with the E-85 was--------------------92%

 

[injfuel]

e-85

I can't run the Nitrous with the E-85.

Duty Cycle with the 110 octane was--------------72%

Duty Cycle with the E-85 was--------------------92%

ok, i understand your position with the nitrous but if you were not running nitrous which would be the cheaper route overall for the power, for those people who only have poterd blowers that dont run nitrous but have a race gas tune or would like a race gas tune, im just trying to get a grasp on the e-85 hype, from what i read if i was in your position with your setup minus the nitrous i would save money running e-85 right? i do run a race gas tune and i have a full returnless system with triple gss-342 so i will need to spend no money on my fuel system , so in your opinion (posi) would i save money if i went to e-85 and acheive at least the same horsepower as the c-13 i run now which is $9 a gallon

 

[Posi]

ok, i understand your position with the nitrous but if you were not running nitrous which would be the cheaper route overall for the power, for those people who only have poterd blowers that dont run nitrous but have a race gas tune or would like a race gas tune, im just trying to get a grasp on the e-85 hype, from what i read if i was in your position with your setup minus the nitrous i would save money running e-85 right? i do run a race gas tune and i have a full returnless system with triple gss-342 so i will need to spend no money on my fuel system , so in your opinion (posi) would i save money if i went to e-85 and acheive at least the same horsepower as the c-13 i run now which is $9 a gallon

Not sure on C-13 but when I post the results from more testing yesterday there's going to be a lot of people switching or at least checking into it.:beer: I've been looking over the logs all day and have some pretty cool findings.

I'll try to get something typed up in a post on here today if possible. Or right now but it might take me a few minutes. Right now I got a headache from looking over 7 new dyno pulls and comparing things.:lol1:

 

[Posi]

Okay obviously we put the car back on the dyno. Race gas (110 octane) put out different numbers than the other day. E-85 put the same numbers out that it did the other day. I'll try to explain things below.

First 4 pulls are 110 octane and the last 3 are E-85 and are in red.


--------------------------1--------------2----------3----------4----------5-------------6---------7

Starting Coolant temp----176--------178--------182--------180--------178--------184--------178
5,500rpm's---------------176--------178--------184--------182--------180--------186--------178
6,000rpm's---------------178--------178--------186--------184--------180--------188--------178
6,500rpm's---------------178--------180--------188--------184--------182--------190--------178


------------------------ 1------------2-----------3------------4-----------5-----------6-----------7
IAT 1's------------------70----------72----------78----------76----------76----------72-----------70----Start of pull
5,500rpm's--------------82-----------86----------94----------94----------92-----------92-----------84
6,000rpm's--------------82-----------86----------96-----------96----------94----------96----------86
6,500rpm's--------------84-----------86----------98----------98-----------94----------98----------88


------------------------ 1-------------2-------------3----------4-------------5-------------6-----------7
IAT 2's------------------78-----------66-----------78-----------74-----------74-----------80-----------70------Start of pull
5,500rpm's---------------86-----------72-----------82-----------80-----------70-----------76-----------66
6,000rpm's---------------94-----------78-----------88-----------86-----------72-----------80-----------68
6,500rpm's---------------103----------88-----------98-----------94-----------77-----------84-----------76


Or basically only pulls 5, 6, and 7 have IAT 2's in the 70's which none of the 110 octane had those cool of temps. Race gas IAT 2's kept going up and the E-85 kept them more in check. E-85 made 15-20 more hp and is more consistant. Couldn't imagine running at the track with the 5 gallon IC resevoir packed with over 20lbs of ice and E-85. At least for my car.:rockon: