New HVAC system

[My Cobra]

I am looking to replace my HVAC unit. I know a few around here have posted about getting their systems done. I think we also have some HVAC tecs on here. So i wanted to get some opinions on what i have been told by local vendors to make sure it is correct.

Problems with current system: Part of the house will be cold and other parts will be hot, does not seem like it has good or even flow. The unit was made in 1984 and the techs are telling me it is less than a 10 seer unit. Size is a 3 ton from what they say. I also have a 24X24 game room that is not being heated or cooled at the moment. I have a heat unit that is in the wall and the AC unit is mounted outside. The thermostat is mounted beside my gas logs so that does not seem to work well if we run the gas logs the rest of the house is cold. My power bill in the winter is around 240. I have new windows and turn things off with power strips. so i wanted to start with the HVAC unit first to see if i can lower that.

Two local companies tell me that i should move the unit inside my garage and hang it from my rafters (two car garage is below my new 24X24 game room) I have the space to put a unit but just does not seem logical to me to put a unit on the rafters and have the noise / vibration in my garage and game room above. but they say it is easy to run the lines in to my crawlspace from this location.

They are quoting a 14 seer and 16 seer 4ton unit moved inside that is all in one so the heat unit in the house will be a closet after this is done. Is the 16 seer unit worth another 1500 over the 14 seer? Both companies quoted the Train units. Both companies were about the same in price.

Any other opinions on this project i should look out for?

 

[SixPak]

Go with the highest SEER rating you can afford, it will pay for itself over the next year or 2. Train units are prolly your best choice out there. You are likely using electric heat currently and being quoted a heat pump system. They use about half the electricity of electric heat strips. If that is is the case you'll increase the capacity of you current system and should come out with a smaller electric bill.
As far as relocating the unit and vibration no need to worry about that. Units are 'usually' suspended on spring isolators and sit on rubber pads to eliminate any vibration.
The biggest deal you're going to have to deal with once you make up your mind what you're going to buy is dealing with the installation. That will make or break the best system on the market. Learn all you can about AC systems in the meantime, and be there when the job is being done. When the job is complete have them show you how it operates and make sure it does what it is supposed to do. That is what is referred to as commissioning the system. It would help if you had a third party there that knew something about AC systems.
You mentioned hot and cold spots with your current system. This can be caused by a system imbalance with airflow, and corrected with what is called an air balance. By adding to your rec room you'll need the system balanced anyways, so that should be handled at that time.
Good luck and let us know how it goes.

 

[My Cobra]

Thanks for the input.

Another question i had was propane back up. I live in Nc where we get some cold weather from time to time. The HVAC guys tell me that the cost will be about the same between the propane fuel costs and the electric in the winter months. I have other people that say the propane back up is a must for when it gets to lower temps.

 

[SID297]

Propane heat can be way more expensive than electricity as the market tends to fluctuate. I just had a dry system installed. It saves me quite a bit of money.

 

[My Cobra]

Nice!

 

[Thump_rrr]

I am an HVAC professional and I will give you my professional opinion.

Sizing of the new unit is critical to proper operation.
A unit that is too large will be inefficient and will not dehumidify correctly.
This will lead to greater problems than if the unit was too small and it ran longer.

What did they do to determine the capacity requirements for your new system?
A professional should use Manual J to determine heat load calculations through walls, floors, windows, and the roof as well as solar gains from different exposures.
This will take hours to complete unless you have a cookie cutter home which the contractor has already done the calculations for.

Please read and understand the following before "shopping" for a contractor and system.
http://www.acca.org/homes/

I am a commercial contractor who sometimes does residential for my commercial clients.
I also like Trane equipment particularly their TAM7 and TAM8 model indoor units due to their plastic cabinetry which has an injected foam core for insulation. There is no wool insulation in the unit to attract dust.

An air to air heat pump has an operating cost of 1/3 compared to an electric heat coil so the ability to heat with a heatpump down to 10F-12F will be advantageous to you.

Unless new ductwork is installed your existing ductwork will determine how large a system can be installed.

As for installing the system in the garage I will warn you in advance.
Many locations prohibit a system from being installed in a garage due to carbon monoxide.
If a car is started in the garage the carbon monoxide can be carried out throughout the home.
Where I am located you cannot even pass ductwork through a garage without it being covered in 2 layers of drywall and all joints taped.

As for control of the system I would spend the money on a Honeywell Visionpro IAQ thermostat that can properly control heatpump operation as well as control Indoor Air Quality hence the name IAQ.

You can also add zone control to address overheating and overcooling in different parts of the home.

If you can please measure the main duct leaving your existing unit I will give you an idea of what size unit was probably installed originally.

Edited to add: If you are to add ductwork for additional spaces it should be done from the main trunk at the unit not to disrupt the distribution of the remaining system.

1KW=3412 BTU 1cubic foot of propane =2,500 BTU with these numbers you can calculate your costs for equivalent amounts of electricity and propane.

For arguments sake if your house requires a 3 ton system then the contractor can install a 3.5ton evaporator with a 3ton outdoor unit to provide more heat although I don't know if this is required for NC.

 

[Mr. Mach-ete]

Trane was kicked out of 1800 Lowe's store nation wide, replaced by Lennox.

 

[CobraBob]

Trane was kicked out of 1800 Lowe's store nation wide, replaced by Lennox.

Yes, that is a recent decision made by Lowes apparently. Just talked to a Lowes corporate associate, and yes, Lowes no longer sells Trane systems. They now sell Lennox. Their website doesn't show any Lennox products because the move was very recent. No reason given for their decision. It doesn't necessarily mean the Lennox is superior to Trane (which I have in my own home). The move could have been a financial decision to benefit Lowes.

I just replaced my old system with Trane last year. I am more than happy with it. Trane systems are exceptional IMO.

 

[WHITE2000GT]

I'm not an expert at HVAC, nor do I know much about HVAC systems, but I wanted to give some input on switching from electric heat (heat strips) to a heat pump. Its probably not a really good example, but I did this swap on our older mobile home a year or so ago after my heat AND ac took a dump in the same year....what a difference it made! I went with an Amana brand "package unit" heat pump (3 ton, 13 seer I believe) and it made our home feel SOOO much better in winter and in the summer. Beware, the heat pumps heat isn't quite like the electric heat, in that the heat from the heat pump isn't really "hot" like with electric heat with heat strips, when putting your hand over the registers. However, it warms really well. We are now using the old space that was used for the heat and ac unit as a small closet as well.

And as others have said, your power bill should pretty much be cut in half (or close to it) after the swap. Our power bill was an outrageous $400 or more during the winter. After the new unit, our power bill is now $180-$250 depending on how cold it gets....and keep in mind, this is a mobile home, so its not very well insulated, lol.

 

[SID297]

I also want to mention, I went from an 8 SEER unit to a 13 SEER unit. The change in our power bill was immediately noticeable. I expect the difference to be even greater this summer.

 

[Thump_rrr]

Trane was kicked out of 1800 Lowe's store nation wide, replaced by Lennox.

So now Lowes is the Barometer for quality?

Lowes also dropped Klein tools to bring in their own Southwire brand in from China.
Pay a little more for top quality and keep jobs in America.
http://www.lowes.com/pd_637705-295-SCP9CD_0__?productId=50331065&Ntt=southwire+pliers&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dsouthwire%2Bpliers&facetInfo=
http://www.amazon.com/Klein-D2000-9NECR-High-Leverage-Side-Cutting-Pliers-Connector/dp/B00093GC5U

As a contractor Lennox has very high markup on exclusive parts compared to Trane.

I'm an independent contractor not affiliated with any one brand.

For packaged rooftop units which are price competitive this is my order of preference. Trane, York, Lennox, Carrier.

Trane is the most simple to troubleshoot and setup, York are a close second but wiring diagrams suck, Lennox although well made also suffer from horribly complicated wiring and parts pricing which is out of line compared to other brands. Carrier rooftop units especially the 48 series have flimsy sheetmetal and poor filter access.

For residential my 2 favorite are Trane for the as mentioned TAM7 and TAM 8 plastic indoor units.
Rheem for the best designed outdoor unit as far as service goes.

On most any unit you must remove the condenser fan and reach down into the unit to replace the compressor while on a Rheem it is in a separate compartment on the side of the unit.
It can be seen on page 2.
http://cdn.globalimageserver.com/fetchdocument-rh.aspx?name=rasl-jez-specification-sheets

 

[matab14]

This is probably more so from a location standpoint, but we put a new AC / Heat Pump in our home last year. Went from Electric Heat strips in the ceiling to the Heat Pump and while I think it heats the house just fine, it's made our electric bills dang near triple on cold days. We're up in Southern IL though and anytime it's below 32 degrees (Which is about every night from Dec to March) the Aux Heat kicks in on it and is just terribly inefficient.

I had initial concerns about that very fact and the guy that did the initial install told me he could "Tune" that to not be a problem. Problem was after I paid him (Cash for New unit / duct and whole works aka a chunk of money) he won't call me back. He just sent one of his techs out last time and that guy told me there is no way to tune a heat pump. Lesson learned there.

As some one else noted though about the attic install, you don't hear the handler vibrate at all. It's very quiet and does great from that stand point or at least in our house.

Also we used 3 Ton unit, 14 Seer. 1600 sqft house. I looked at pricing the 16 seer and like you noted it was a significant difference in price. I believe to get the tax credit it has to be greater than 18 Seer anyways so the payoff wasn't there in my mind. I will say AC is great and only cost us around $100 mo in the dead of summer to cool the house.

 

[shanezt]

Last year we had a super duper fancy Trane thingy installed. I choose to go with a 2 stage compressor with a variable speed air handler. supposed to be pretty top of the line. it replaced a 12yr old 10seer unit. so far our bill has only dropped about 30/mo. Not even close to the 100ish we were suppoed to save every month. as long as it lasts I am happy, but if I did it over again I would go with a lower seer.




Also the thing I don't get, my old unit pulled 26amps when running, this new one, at full power, only pulls 11amps. I should see a huge drop in electric bills, but it isn't working out that way.

 

[Thump_rrr]

This is probably more so from a location standpoint, but we put a new AC / Heat Pump in our home last year. Went from Electric Heat strips in the ceiling to the Heat Pump and while I think it heats the house just fine, it's made our electric bills dang near triple on cold days. We're up in Southern IL though and anytime it's below 32 degrees (Which is about every night from Dec to March) the Aux Heat kicks in on it and is just terribly inefficient.

I had initial concerns about that very fact and the guy that did the initial install told me he could "Tune" that to not be a problem. Problem was after I paid him (Cash for New unit / duct and whole works aka a chunk of money) he won't call me back. He just sent one of his techs out last time and that guy told me there is no way to tune a heat pump. Lesson learned there.

As some one else noted though about the attic install, you don't hear the handler vibrate at all. It's very quiet and does great from that stand point or at least in our house.

Also we used 3 Ton unit, 14 Seer. 1600 sqft house. I looked at pricing the 16 seer and like you noted it was a significant difference in price. I believe to get the tax credit it has to be greater than 18 Seer anyways so the payoff wasn't there in my mind. I will say AC is great and only cost us around $100 mo in the dead of summer to cool the house.

Is your backup still electric?
If it is it should cost you the same as it did when the outdoor temp is below the balance point.
Even in your neck of the woods a 16 SEER should be able to heat at the bare minimum down to 17F on the heatpump alone.

PM me if you like and I can maybe give you a few things to look at.

 

[My Cobra]

A lot of great info.

What is the two stage heating / cooling, i did notice that on one of the quotes?
There are a lot of days it stays below 20 where i live, will the heat coils run all the time trying to keep the house warm?
Half off a power bill seems a little far fetched, is this correct or just a sales pitch from these guys?

Thanks for all the help!

 

[Thump_rrr]

A lot of great info.

What is the two stage heating / cooling, i did notice that on one of the quotes?
There are a lot of days it stays below 20 where i live, will the heat coils run all the time trying to keep the house warm?
Half off a power bill seems a little far fetched, is this correct or just a sales pitch from these guys?

Thanks for all the help!

For somebody to say 1/2 off your power bill is a bit irresponsible since they don't know what percentage of your power bill is your heating.

The way to look at it is that for every dollar you will spend on electric heat (either baseboard or electric heat coil the heatpump will cost you $0.33.

When the temperature is below 20F your electric heat coil can be set to start supplementing your heatpump and can be set to go completely electric by 10F.
Local environmental conditions can vary these settings which is why I recommend the thermostat that I do. Spending more on quality controls will ensure you will get the best performance and efficiency from your system.

With the thermostat that I recommend you can use a sensor in the return air duct which will give you a good average temperature instead of the spot temperature near your gas logs. By running the fan you will be able to distribute the heat throughout the home.

 

[Brutal Metal]

Lennox is crap, not a big upgrade at all for Lowes.. those aluminum coils are known to be leakers...

 

[SID297]

The newer units are certainly not built like they used to be. The 8 SEER York I replaced easily weighed twice as much as the Goodman we installed.

 

[DriftwoodSVT]

Propane heat can be way more expensive than electricity as the market tends to fluctuate.

Propane costs can be crazy. Last year we were paying $4/gallon, this year it's about $2/gallon. That's a HUGE difference when filling up a 500 gallon tank multiple times throughout the year.

 

[SID297]

Propane costs can be crazy. Last year we were paying $4/gallon, this year it's about $2/gallon. That's a HUGE difference when filling up a 500 gallon tank multiple times throughout the year.

It certainly is. It's great as an emergency fuel source though.