Let's see your Turbo setups!

[SVTCobra60]

Setup wise it's a dual in dual out custom twin kit based of hpp's but custom cold side. It has 2.5" downs now but 3" is going in with the 60/62's.

It's a 5.4 @9.5/1 cr with stockish 03 cobra heads/cams and a Sullivan intake. It's made 915 at 4800rpms-880@6600, but its completely out of hot and cold side. I make the same power from 19.5-22psi just gain a bunch of torque.

I'm not sure if your power is falling off because your turbos are too small or if the tiny A/R mixed with the small hot side exducer is hurting you.

 

[SVTCobra60]

Correction: Zeekman made 1000rw at 22psi. 9.7.1 compression, so slightly higher than yours, MMR ported Navi heads, and custom MMR turbo cams. The heads and cams along with the bigger turbos could literally be worth 100-150rw depending on level of port / cam

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

I think you're right about the hot/cold sides being mixed up. When I re read it, I see what you're saying.

It's mainly a street car so I want to go with as small of turbos as possible. I'm thinking It should easily make 85whp more than I had before on 20psi (915whp) , since I'm going from 57/48 to 60/62. That'll be enough for 1000whp which will still be plenty, do you think it'll be that hard to pick up another 100whp from there with 5-8 more psi? If so, I can always go heads/cams. I've noticed the dual in dual out I have is super efficient so I think that's why I've always Dyno'd well even with 57's. Even on a stock longblock 4.6 terminator (stock internals/heads/cams) it made 756whp on pump gas @15psi. It made 870whp on 22-24psi when it was initially put together on the original 4.6 as well. Those setups were all gas, not e85 or meth.

Everything I read up showed I'd have an easy time hitting 1100whp and possibly more. Time will tell, I'm going to stay hopeful, but I think I worst case, im going meth this summer anyways, and i can always do heads/cams as an option for 60-80whp.

Was his 5.4 an auto or m6? Mine's a t56 so that makes a difference as well rwhp wise.

Thanks for the honest feedback though, what's your take on the turbos in general? I've seen everything for awesome to terrible feedback but the 1 year warranty and fully rebuild able aspects put my mind at ease.

 

[SVTCobra60]

I think you're right about the hot/cold sides being mixed up. When I re read it, I see what you're saying.

It's mainly a street car so I want to go with as small of turbos as possible. I'm thinking It should easily make 85whp more than I had before on 20psi (915whp) , since I'm going from 57/48 to 60/62. That'll be enough for 1000whp which will still be plenty, do you think it'll be that hard to pick up another 100whp from there with 5-8 more psi? If so, I can always go heads/cams. I've noticed the dual in dual out I have is super efficient so I think that's why I've always Dyno'd well even with 57's. Even on a stock longblock 4.6 terminator (stock internals/heads/cams) it made 756whp on pump gas @15psi. It made 870whp on 22-24psi when it was initially put together on the original 4.6 as well. Those setups were all gas, not e85 or meth. Understood, the slightly smaller turbo 60 over 62, will provide for a slightly better spool time, but I simply felt to reach the goals you were going for you could definitely benefit from the 62's. I think the bigger turbine side is what will really help the spool, a lot more room for the air to fully move through. This may be inaccurate but calculating some numbers I found that an increase of 1 on the turbine exducer equated in roughly 3 more HP. And an increase in 1 in the compressor inducer resulted in roughly 15HP. So 57-60 = 45HP, and 48-62=42HP. So overall 87HP increase. Convert that to wheel HP and I'd say 70rw. Honestly I'm not sure how easily that extra power will be cranked out considering you'll be at the max effort of the turbo. Max effort will be around 1320 crank, and 1100rw is roughly 1250-1320.

Everything I read up showed I'd have an easy time hitting 1100whp and possibly more. Time will tell, I'm going to stay hopeful, but I think I worst case, im going meth this summer anyways, and i can always do heads/cams as an option for 60-80whp. Yeah heads/cams alone will allow probably 100rw more, this is why I feel that you will benefit from slightly larger turbos, with a 5.4 and good flowing heads you could be pushing serious power.

Was his 5.4 an auto or m6? Mine's a t56 so that makes a difference as well rwhp wise.M6!

Thanks for the honest feedback though, what's your take on the turbos in general? I've seen everything for awesome to terrible feedback but the 1 year warranty and fully rebuild able aspects put my mind at ease.

No problem man. Honestly I haven't heard bad/good about them. What I go by is how often I see a certain brand in high end builds. I'd say the most popular is the GT garret series and precision.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

Ya that makes a lot of sense but also every turbo is different. Lots of variables.

I'm going from off the shelf non blanketed/ non bb hpp units through 2.5" downs, not sure the origin or real manufacturer, to blanketed triple ball bearing oil-less units with 14 vein and 3" downs. The 14 vein is designed long fin to reduce thermal and gas bleed off. I think it'll be more like 4.5-5hp and 22.5-25hp per mm because of inefficiency vs efficiency. Ive seen a few hellion single 76 cars gain 150whp from going to a real effiient single 80, the maths there would be 5-6hp and 25-30hp per mm comparatively. Anyways, if I can gain even 4hp and 20hp per mm, that alone should put me around 1000whp on 20psi with out even factoring the down piping. I'm thinking 4.5-5hp and 22.5-25hp because of the step up in downpipe size coupled with the turbos.

Also that's only up to 20psi so far, where I made 915, these turbos will be more responsive past 21+psi offering more power since the 48's are being replaced by 62's, leaving tons of top end. I may only gain 70-100whp on 20psi, but running 21-25psi should gain more power still I'd think. I don't think these will be maxed out at anything short of 25psi but 28psi might not offer much more than 25psi. I'm hoping 25-28psi on meth makes 1100whp, here's an older graph of 885whp on 20psi before boost-a-spark, fuel pump regulator, new ba3000 maf, and some minor tuning updates. The low torque down low was because we couldn't floor the car off the get go otherwise it would blow the tires up at ~50-70mph on the dyno so my tuner was rolling in an going full throttle around 85-90mph.

It looks like there's tons of potential left powerband wise, and I hoping if it does make 1100 that its atleast from 5500-6500, I don't think it'll be from 4800~ like it makes power now, but even with my 3.08 rear, a 6500rpm shift doesn't put me too far off 5500, maybe I'll start pulling 6750-7k shifts if power really moves up the graph.

I'm thinking it won't though, and if anything it'll fully spool quicker than it does now because everything I'm seeing on comp turbos is all about ridiculously quick spooling.

I know they have a turbo in the fastest single turbo terminator (7.75~@180) and when I watch the vid of it, it seemed to spool really fast for a single 88!!

Anyways, I appreciate the honest feedback and it keeps me humble expectation wise, I want to run as small a turbo as possible for my goals so I'm hoping these just barely do it so I can have the most streetable powerband I can get sense I don't have a high rev setup yet. Cam, destroke to a 310~ci with ported heads for 7500-8000rpms does sound very tempting though hehehe, that would be epic. Maybe next year when the budgets replenished haha.

 

[SVTCobra60]

Ya that makes a lot of sense but also every turbo is different. Lots of variables.
Absolutely

I'm going from off the shelf non blanketed/ non bb hpp units through 2.5" downs, not sure the origin or real manufacturer, to blanketed triple ball bearing oil-less units with 14 vein and 3" downs. The 14 vein is designed long fin to reduce thermal and gas bleed off. I think it'll be more like 4.5-5hp and 22.5-25hp per mm because of inefficiency vs efficiency. Ive seen a few hellion single 76 cars gain 150whp from going to a real effiient single 80, the maths there would be 5-6hp and 25-30hp per mm comparatively. Anyways, if I can gain even 4hp and 20hp per mm, that alone should put me around 1000whp on 20psi with out even factoring the down piping. I'm thinking 4.5-5hp and 22.5-25hp because of the step up in downpipe size coupled with the turbos.
That's very true, although I think HPP uses precision, so they are no slouch! The numbers I came up with were using different combos from COMP turbos, so yes it will vary when brand crossing. And the gains I stated didn't incorporate the DP which will absolutely help. There is no doubt that the turbos your looking at are far superior to what you had.

Also that's only up to 20psi so far, where I made 915, these turbos will be more responsive past 21+psi offering more power since the 48's are being replaced by 62's, leaving tons of top end. I may only gain 70-100whp on 20psi, but running 21-25psi should gain more power still I'd think. I don't think these will be maxed out at anything short of 25psi but 28psi might not offer much more than 25psi. I'm hoping 25-28psi on meth makes 1100whp, here's an older graph of 885whp on 20psi before boost-a-spark, fuel pump regulator, new ba3000 maf, and some minor tuning updates. The low torque down low was because we couldn't floor the car off the get go otherwise it would blow the tires up at ~50-70mph on the dyno so my tuner was rolling in an going full throttle around 85-90mph.
Yea I think you could safely continue gaining power into the mid/low 20's.


It looks like there's tons of potential left powerband wise, and I hoping if it does make 1100 that its atleast from 5500-6500, I don't think it'll be from 4800~ like it makes power now, but even with my 3.08 rear, a 6500rpm shift doesn't put me too far off 5500, maybe I'll start pulling 6750-7k shifts if power really moves up the graph.
Yea I'm not sure if you'll hit 25-28psi by 4800 even though you are using a ball bearing turbo. Just seems like too much boost to get in so low. What intake are you using? Sullivan or ported cobra/mach or something like that.

I'm thinking it won't though, and if anything it'll fully spool quicker than it does now because everything I'm seeing on comp turbos is all about ridiculously quick spooling.

I know they have a turbo in the fastest single turbo terminator (7.75~@180) and when I watch the vid of it, it seemed to spool really fast for a single 88!!

Anyways, I appreciate the honest feedback and it keeps me humble expectation wise, I want to run as small a turbo as possible for my goals so I'm hoping these just barely do it so I can have the most streetable powerband I can get sense I don't have a high rev setup yet. Cam, destroke to a 310~ci with ported heads for 7500-8000rpms does sound very tempting though hehehe, that would be epic. Maybe next year when the budgets replenished haha.

No problem. Seems like a great idea if you don't have intentions of climbing higher. Honestly I've heard not so great things about "de-stroking" the 5.4's. And this was from big name builders like MMR and Accufab. But ported heads/better cams = :banana:
Found another good car for reference, just look at the dyno numbers
http://www.svtperformance.com/forum...03857-2003-dsg-cobra-twin-turbo-1018rwhp.html
Also Tony's car (BLK_03) is running twin 61's and I BELIEVE he is in the 1000ish range at 25psi or so.
Another sick car
[youtube_browser]35hOsdK2XhA[/youtube_browser]
Granted your 5.4 so that adds another 30-40 rw?? Guesstimate.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

Ya the 5.4 have sweeping potential as power levels climb, it's not a fixed gain, like 30-40whp, but more so an algorithm. At low power na levels its 30~40whp in most cases, but higher power changes things a lot. All variables being the exact same, a 5.4 has greater potential for power production in any comparable scenario vs the 4.6, I'd guess in my scenario, an identical 4.6 from cr, to heads/cams/ rpm/Sullivan intake etc would be 70-80whp lower at 20psi and atleast 100whp lower at 25psi. For comparison, the 5.4 setup made 815whp on 15psi way back before the last set of spark/fuel/maf/tuning mods and the original stock 4.6 made 756whp on 15psi. I think 03's have 9.2/1 stock cr so I was a bit higher but 69whp was the difference just at 15psi. At just 18-20psi, the 5.4 combo made 898-915whp (turbos maxed out for the 5.4) while it took 23-24psi to get 87xwhp out of the stock longblock 4.6, in essence with 5-6psi less boost, it made 15-45+whp, I think at 20psi, the 4.6 was making 825~ but I can't honestly remember. If it was, that 90whp alone there but also, the 5.4 is more sensitive to 2.5" down pipes restriction than the smaller 4.6 is. Little difference also go the other way though like the newer/tune friendlier maf was on the 5.4 when it made 915, but not on the 4.6 when it made 87x, better fuel and spark system too on the 5.4 etc but then again the 5.4 is 20% bigger so it also demands more fuel/spark so its hard to say what those mods would have gained on the 4.6 since its apples/oranges.

In my application, the 5.4 showed to be torquier by upto 100+ wtq in certain parts of the powerband which necessitated 3.08's and 28" tires for a semblance of traction just on pump gas under 80-100mph.

Here's an old graph comparing the two combos on 15psi. This is before the fuel/spark/maf mods on the 5.4, it now makes I believe 830-840whp on 15-16psi. We had a pull that showed 845~?whp on 16.xpsi but never got anything in the 15psi range on the newest setup. Boost creep maybe? Hope not haha.

I think the graph shows how the stock spark tables (pre boost a spark) and 2.5" down pipes choke off power production as hp is still climbing well then studders off, but torque falls off quickly after peaking and decidedly affects the hp curves ramp. At 3500-4500rpms, it's easily 80-120+whp more with gobs more torque, but then it reaches the restriction of the factory spark tables and 2.5" downs. It's goofy that it only picked up 70whp going from 15/16psi to 20psi haha. On the same day it made these numbers, it made 860-885 on 18-20psi. From 15psi up, the 57/48's are every bit and more so a restriction than even the 2.5" downs/previous spark and maf issues were IMO. Really incongruent combo efficiency wise.

This one shows the spark cut off/issues. I think this 869whp was on 18psi, it made 87x's on 19 and 885 on 20 but we didn't do many pulls up there because of the spark issues.

Extra boost was literally just cooking up 20+wtq with like 3-5whp from 19-20psi.

Intake wise I'm running an accufab single blade into Sullivan upper/lower but the cold side leading in is dual in dual out modified fmic 4+" (4.5"?)

Na 5.4 it made 380-400wtq at 2000-4500~ and never dropped below 350wtq after that. It peaked 355-365whp@55-6200 with factory 03 cobra exhaust manifolds, heads and cams (stock 03) on 9.5:1 cr with a really safe break in tune. It was good for 12.9's at 112 na with crappy tires (2.1 60ft) but a spec stage 3+, 4.10's, full suspension and powershifts. I know of some full bolt on 01 cobras getting upto 330whp but its very rare. The 365 it made na would be 35whp alone but also, the 9.5:1 compression is probably lower than the 9.8?-10.0?:1 cr of an na 4.6 cobra mill and my 5.4 had cast factory 03 cobra manifolds while 330whp teksids have to be running headers, so it's not exactly that simple to say what the exact difference is. I'd guess 40whp na is a good rule of thumb on a low if all parts/compression/healthiness/etc are the same but displacement is the only real difference.

-----any ways, I can't think of much else frame of reference wise to explain the differences I've seen 4.6 vs 5.4 but if you have a specific question, I can try and answer it if I know anything that pertains-----

A/r wise they recommended the .63 3" vband which I also thought was small. I was thinking of running atleast a .85-.90~ a/r but they said the 60/62 would feel laggier with that but I'm still on the fence. Time will tell. I think it's interchangeable relatively easily so I can probably switch them if the .63's are too restrictive.

Those links are awesome, I love seeing "small" turbo cobras make 4 digit power. So much epic win. Keeps me very hopeful. Thanks for sharing those!!

 

[SVTCobra60]

That intake setup is absolutely ****ing awesome lol. Yes by no means was I trying to set one single number on the difference between 4.6 and 5.4, I was just naming a fairly general peak HP increase. I've seen your dyno graph comparison which was pretty awesome, although the increased CR helped a lot as well. Pretty stout for NA! Impressive TQ. That's strange, like you I would definitely think a larger A/R would be better. In the .8's would be what I'd think. Maybe 7's. Yea I love the youtube car, sick setup and good numbers. Although I wouldn't call his turbo small haha, GT4788 is a serious turbo! The other two cars are definitely making impressive power with only 61's. Haha yea no problem, Not sure If you know C666 or something like that on here, he has the stock heads/cam/comp (minus pistons/rods/bolts etc.) and is making 1000+ through a powerglide, turbo was 4780 I think. Also was pushing like 30psi

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

All good points man, the a/r is confusing me as well, I hope it's spec'd correctly. Ya all kinds of variables come into the mix so its hard to get a real scientific method esq comprehension of what differences 4.6's and 5.4's have since my setups are running difference cr, exhaust, fuel and spark, tuning, boost levels, etc. There's decent general info to be obtained but not enough concrete info to make specific assertions.

I know Sean Hyland has done more normalized tests that limit variables considerably better and found 30-50hp in moddest na trims but as much as 80-100hp in high rev fully swing na beasts hitting 8k rpms and up. I remember an article of a cam/head 11:1 4.6 making 51x hp around 7600, while a 5.4 with the same heads/cam equivalent made 59x hp, both on an engine dyno. Theoretically there's a 20% initial chance for more power based on displacement advantage but then losses need to be factored in to account for the long stroke vs shorter stroke. Same way a Ferrari 4.0 will crush a truck 4.0 in terms of peak power production, smaller stroke allows for higher rpms. A Ferrari 4.0 loves to rev but is moddest at best below 5,000 rpms because it maximizes its power potential at much higher revs due to the small stroke, wide bore design. The 4.6 vs the 5.4 is somewhat similar as the 5.4 is simply a longer stroke which doesn't offer much in terms of power production potential above 7000rpms compared to the vastly improved low rpm power production potential, ie 80-100wtq gains. That's not to say 5.4's won't make more peak power than 4.6's in most any application, but 7000rpms on a 4+" stroke is very stressful so it's ideal not to rev them high unless they're destroked or fully built with the intention of doing so. Drag 5.4's are hitting 9k rpms reliably and cooly, but a street headed/cammed/retained 5.4 would deconstruct at those speeds.

All told, realistically, at an optimized 6500rpm rev limit or lower, a 5.4 can make upto probably 15-20% more peak power than a similar 4.6, if 7,000rpms is the optimized rev limit with accompanying cams/head/retainer mods then I'd assume the difference shrinks to 14-18% due to slightly higher carrying load of the rotating assembly which will mitigate some hp. At 9500rpms, fully race set, a 335ci 5.4 is probably gaining very little on a 323ci (destroked) 5.3 or even a 310ci 5.2 honestly as higher load/weight on rotation is mitigating a good bit of the power potential. It's probable that a poked/light stroke 4.6- 5.1 would equally perform as a 5.3 or 5.2 destroked mill by within 1-2% maximum efficiency since this 5.1 would have a slightly larger bore than the 5.2-5.4 variants, but obviously there would be so many variables to account for that such a test would be near impossible to norm out. The cam grinds couldn't be the same, and accordingly, neither could the head/spring/retainer setups. But in general stoke offers more low-mid rpm power production potential with moderate high rpm potential while bore offers ok mid, good upper and greater high rpm potential. That all said, simply stroking a motor will gain power through out the entire rpm band but the gains will be most evident down low, and slowly tapper off but still be an improvement as revs climb.

Knowing I wanted a street car, m6 with pump and race gas, non e85(can't find it easily up here) I went 5.4 so I could have an extra 150-750lbs of torque at lower rpms. I also knew I didn't want to have to rev higher than 6500 (though I do want to do heads/cams so I can run lower boost, safely go 7,000rpms at the track) so for my application it checked the right boxes but every application is different.

 

[drusmith]

first setup factory header/hellion style garrett 66mm 670whp 19lbs t56

next one tubular headers bws378ett 770whp 17lbs w/4r75w

current tubular headers gt4202 tial 1.05 housing 810whp 21lbs t56

never going back to the belt driven turds again ;-)

Love your setup bro!!!!! Perfect street car numbers too! How big of inner-cooler did you go with?

Drew

 

[RussZTT]

Are you running a 4r in your car? If so who built it? It is tempting to go auto in mine, but I do NOT want to give up over drive. So many mixed feelings about the 4r as well.



Good numbers! Same 19 PSI?

Sorry I didn't see this until now. No, still on a stock 6 speed....for now. You can do over drive in the 4r70w :rockon:

 

[Turbo98]

I went 5.4 so I could have an extra 150-750lbs of torque at lower rpms.

How do you figure you'd gain an extra 750 ft-lbs of torque unless that's a typo?

BTW, I opted for the 322 BB stroker. Plenty of low/mid range power which was the goal. Probably too much, lol.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

How do you figure you'd gain an extra 750 ft-lbs of torque unless that's a typo?

BTW, I opted for the 322 BB stroker. Plenty of low/mid range power which was the goal. Probably too much, lol.

Haha ya obviously. Was supposed to be 75-150wtq haha I must have edited it weird or corrected it weird while initially posting it. That's a killer block, nice man! Mines just a truck motor haha, I like to sap my non car guy friends into believing that before I take em for a ride. "Just a truck motor"

 

[SVTCobra60]

Yea turbo98 has a sick setup! Both of you have awesome cars.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

Thanks man, these are golden days of performance for sure. It's an epic win when you can take a $30k~ (new) car, get crazy power, drivability and longevity out of it, and still get decent mpg. Heck, in the 70's, you could maybe get 11's out of a project car with -7 lbs of idle vacuum and like maybe 5-8mpg haha. Times have come a long way.

 

[SVTCobra60]

Lol and that 5-8 MPG was when you stayed out of it.

 

[SIr RicCuS]

Looks slow, Chris. :dancenana:

I'm moving down there in 2 months, dude. We're going to have a single turbo vs TT duel...

I'm throwing 400lbs. of batteries in your trunk to even the odds. :lol1:

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

Lol and that 5-8 MPG was when you stayed out of it.

So true haha. And points/lifters/rockers would fail about every 60-600 miles... The good ol days weren't bad, gas was cheap and money was easier to make/hide but damn was tech and performance leagues behind.

 

[SVTCobra60]

So true haha. And points/lifters/rockers would fail about every 60-600 miles... The good ol days weren't bad, gas was cheap and money was easier to make/hide but damn was tech and performance leagues behind.

It's incredible though because in modern times you can make a SB or BB very efficient and streetable. Technology does wonders lol.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

And we haven't even mentioned chassis/handling/amenities.

Guys are hitting 8's in full weight auto 2011+ turbo stangs. Factory auto/full interior etc. crazy/awesome