I'm ready for BIG brakes...school me please

[LTHL VNM]

I'm looking to upgrade the brakes on this car, and i don't know where to start. I know i want a big brake kit, but i am not very knowledgeable about the different kits, options, sizes, rotor style, etc. Could ya'll give me some input, pics, part numbers of what you're using? especially the open track/street guys and not so much the drag strip. My wheels have the big brake cut so anything should fit.

 

[mu22stang]

Brakes don't stop you, tires do. Just like accelerating from a stop, braking performance is limited by your contact patch and the grip provided by that contact patch. A dynamite powertrain won't pay dividends on your timeslip without traction. A big brake kit won't pay dividends in improved stopping performance without grip. If you can trigger your ABS, you're limited by your tires, not your brakes. Heat dissipation is another reason to go to a BBK. But I doubt heat dissipation is the reason you're looking to upgrade.

Pedal feel and initial bite are going to be the areas you're looking for the biggest improvement on a street car. They are for me at least. Stainless steel brake lines will make a HUGE difference in pedal feel. The stainless steel lines do not swell like the factory rubber lines when applying liberal pedal force. Because of this, you have more positive communication with the braking action. The difference in pedal feel is immediate and significant with SS lines. Pad choice will also dictate the pedal feel. The level of pedal feel, initial bite, cold and hot temperature performance, and overall pad performance is so subjective that I won't go into specific brands. I can tell you that the difference in braking performance between my street and track pads is night and day. It is literally a different car. With brake pads, there are ALWAYS compromises. In general, you have performance in one hand and comfort in the other. For more on pad performance, I HIGHLY recommend reading this... Essex - Learning Center - How to Choose the Best Street and Track Brake Pads

If you plan on tracking the car, you need brake cooling ducts for the front brakes. That's a given. To date, these are the best brake cooling duct backing plates I've found... 94-04 Mustang 3 Race Duct Plate Kit [04802.3DK] - $75.00 : Quantum Motorsports online store, High quality performance parts for your street or race car.

If you are genuinely concerned with performance, I can promise you that if you switch to SS lines and find an aggressive pad that you like, you'll seriously reconsider spending all that money on a big brake kit. And even if you still want a BBK, you haven't spent an arm and a leg. Plus, buying a BBK without upgrading you brake lines to SS is a bit silly. Buying a BBK without getting a clear understanding of the difference between an aggressive pad and a street pad is also a bit silly. Plenty of folks that take to the track use the stock PBR calipers with great success. I'm one of them.

 

[Teej281]

Do they even make sintered pads for the cobra brakes? I'd be interested in them if they do.

 

[jrgoffin]

Brakes don't stop you, tires do. Just like accelerating from a stop, braking performance is limited by your contact patch and the grip provided by that contact patch. A dynamite powertrain won't pay dividends on your timeslip without traction. A big brake kit won't pay dividends in improved stopping performance without grip. If you can trigger your ABS, you're limited by your tires, not your brakes. Heat dissipation is another reason to go to a BBK. But I doubt heat dissipation is the reason you're looking to upgrade.

Pedal feel and initial bite are going to be the areas you're looking for the biggest improvement on a street car. They are for me at least. Stainless steel brake lines will make a HUGE difference in pedal feel. The stainless steel lines do not swell like the factory rubber lines when applying liberal pedal force. Because of this, you have more positive communication with the braking action. The difference in pedal feel is immediate and significant with SS lines. Pad choice will also dictate the pedal feel. The level of pedal feel, initial bite, cold and hot temperature performance, and overall pad performance is so subjective that I won't go into specific brands. I can tell you that the difference in braking performance between my street and track pads is night and day. It is literally a different car. With brake pads, there are ALWAYS compromises. In general, you have performance in one hand and comfort in the other. For more on pad performance, I HIGHLY recommend reading this... Essex - Learning Center - How to Choose the Best Street and Track Brake Pads

If you plan on tracking the car, you need brake cooling ducts for the front brakes. That's a given. To date, these are the best brake cooling duct backing plates I've found... 94-04 Mustang 3 Race Duct Plate Kit [04802.3DK] - $75.00 : Quantum Motorsports online store, High quality performance parts for your street or race car.

If you are genuinely concerned with performance, I can promise you that if you switch to SS lines and find an aggressive pad that you like, you'll seriously reconsider spending all that money on a big brake kit. And even if you still want a BBK, you haven't spent an arm and a leg. Plus, buying a BBK without upgrading you brake lines to SS is a bit silly. Buying a BBK without getting a clear understanding of the difference between an aggressive pad and a street pad is also a bit silly. Plenty of folks that take to the track use the stock PBR calipers with great success. I'm one of them.

^ This...

Or if you have to have a BBK, here is an inexpensive start:

1994-2004 Cobra R Brembo front brake upgrade | eBay

I love my Brembo's...

 

[20SVT03]

there was a link on here i saw a couple of days ago that summit was selling a brembo 6 piston and rotor kit for dirt cheap!

 

[hunterp]

there was a link on here i saw a couple of days ago that summit was selling a brembo 6 piston and rotor kit for dirt cheap!

I believe you're thinking of the Wilwood kit. Either way, a great price.

 

[Bruha]

I agree with the statements above. That being said, I still chose to purchase a BBK. I went with a 14" brembo kit.

SN95 Mustang: F14 Front Brake Package — Vintage Venom - Vintage Mustang Disc Brake Kits

I really like this kit!! I think they look bad ass on the car. Let's face it. Most guys get bigger blowers cause they want to... Most tires can't hook these cars on the street, so the theory is why get more power, if you can't use it.

I think most of the guys talking down the BBK wished they had they them Just saying, just about every upgrade I have done on my car is unless on the street. Definitely against the law if used to its full potential!

I say if you can afford it, go for it. You will not regret it!!

 

[LTHL VNM]

Do y'all have part numbers for the Bembo kits that fit our cars? Especially the R kit...

 

[SomeSoldier]

Just go look on Lethal Performance website and check out the kits there for part numbers.

 

[N/Angel]

subscribing, I'm happy with my stock PBR/Hawk HP+ combo but want to look into brake cooling and SS lines

 

[Jimmysidecarr]

Brakes don't stop you, tires do. Just like accelerating from a stop, braking performance is limited by your contact patch and the grip provided by that contact patch. A dynamite powertrain won't pay dividends on your timeslip without traction. A big brake kit won't pay dividends in improved stopping performance without grip. If you can trigger your ABS, you're limited by your tires, not your brakes. Heat dissipation is another reason to go to a BBK. But I doubt heat dissipation is the reason you're looking to upgrade.

Pedal feel and initial bite are going to be the areas you're looking for the biggest improvement on a street car. They are for me at least. Stainless steel brake lines will make a HUGE difference in pedal feel. The stainless steel lines do not swell like the factory rubber lines when applying liberal pedal force. Because of this, you have more positive communication with the braking action. The difference in pedal feel is immediate and significant with SS lines. Pad choice will also dictate the pedal feel. The level of pedal feel, initial bite, cold and hot temperature performance, and overall pad performance is so subjective that I won't go into specific brands. I can tell you that the difference in braking performance between my street and track pads is night and day. It is literally a different car. With brake pads, there are ALWAYS compromises. In general, you have performance in one hand and comfort in the other. For more on pad performance, I HIGHLY recommend reading this... Essex - Learning Center - How to Choose the Best Street and Track Brake Pads

If you plan on tracking the car, you need brake cooling ducts for the front brakes. That's a given. To date, these are the best brake cooling duct backing plates I've found... 94-04 Mustang 3 Race Duct Plate Kit [04802.3DK] - $75.00 : Quantum Motorsports online store, High quality performance parts for your street or race car.

If you are genuinely concerned with performance, I can promise you that if you switch to SS lines and find an aggressive pad that you like, you'll seriously reconsider spending all that money on a big brake kit. And even if you still want a BBK, you haven't spent an arm and a leg. Plus, buying a BBK without upgrading you brake lines to SS is a bit silly. Buying a BBK without getting a clear understanding of the difference between an aggressive pad and a street pad is also a bit silly. Plenty of folks that take to the track use the stock PBR calipers with great success. I'm one of them.

Guys in the first two run groups are really not going to "need" any brake mods besides... #1 COOLING DUCTS, 2#FRESH brake fluid with a dry boil point at or over 500F, and #3 a more track oriented pad.

I have the Focus RS/Y2KR Brembo calipers using stock 13" Brembo rotors. I like them, they were a pretty significant improvement over the PBRs regarding pad life and reduced pad taper, but the main issue I have now is ROTOR LIFE. These 13" rotors are great for street use but this car should have gotten the 18" wheels and 14" brakes like the GT500s did, because they crack pretty easily once you are out of the first two run groups, and especially once you are up on some sticky tires at elevated speeds.
This is the kit I would love to get. I love every thing about it including the use of GT500 rotors which are relatively cheap, plentiful and extremely ROBUST.
SN95 Mustang: F14 Front Brake Package — Vintage Venom - Vintage Mustang Disc Brake Kits

The above quote is all very good stuff except for one thing, there is very little difference in expansion between the 99 - 04 Cobra brake hoses and stainless steel covered Teflon lined competition brake hoses.

Rob Eaton tested the brake hoses and was basically in charge of Ford Brake development at that time. I have the stainless lines, but I did not know then what I know now.
Are braided stainless brake hoses stiffer than stock? - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum


This a great write up about the F14 kit.
Ford Mustang Engineer

 

[Bruha]

Rob Eaton is a very sharp guy! Very friendly and helpful too. I am 100% satisfied with my purchase of his kit! Plus it looks BA on the car.

I read somewhere that Rob Eaton had tested brake cooling ducts and for the test he had done saw little or no gain whatsoever with the ducts. In fact it might have made the brakes run hotter. I will see if I can dig that up.

 

[Jimmysidecarr]

Rob Eaton is a very sharp guy! Very friendly and helpful too. I am 100% satisfied with my purchase of his kit! Plus it looks BA on the car.

I read somewhere that Rob Eaton had tested brake cooling ducts and for the test he had done saw little or no gain whatsoever with the ducts. In fact it might have made the brakes run hotter. I will see if I can dig that up.

That was an interesting test, there was a pretty large difference in front temps from right to left. That was in the road race forum on the Corral also.

I would love to be able to get a half way decent price on my 13" Brembos and my 17" wheel and tire inventory and then spring for some 18" AFS reps and Rob's F14 kit. Then I would just need that Tiger hood and I could go terrorizing some of those German cars even more vigorously than before.

 

[Bruha]

Jimmy, as far as lap times are concerned, what do you think that brake would do for you?
Would it just be a confidence thing, or would you gain several seconds per lap. I am assuming both, but just wanted to lead the question, so you could elaborate in greater detail

 

[SnakeBit]

I believe you're thinking of the Wilwood kit. Either way, a great price.

I just bought one of these. It's a 14" solid rotors with black calipers (couldn't find it in red calipers except in 13" rotors). Atlanta's Summit didn't have it, but there was one in the Ohio store which is on it's way to me. I couldn't resist that price.

Now I got to get some tires which are up to task.

 

[mu22stang]

...The above quote is all very good stuff except for one thing, there is very little difference in expansion between the 99 - 04 Cobra brake hoses and stainless steel covered Teflon lined competition brake hoses.

Rob Eaton tested the brake hoses and was basically in charge of Ford Brake development at that time. I have the stainless lines, but I did not know then what I know now.
Are braided stainless brake hoses stiffer than stock? - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum

From the article:

"For the particular Goodyear hose used on the '99-'04 Cobra the expansion increases by 60% at 160 deg. F... Another factor to consider with the stock hoses is that they will degrade with time compared to a quality braided line."

160 degrees F is nothing! I have the sneaky suspicion it takes little more than a spirited afternoon drive to get the brake lines to 160 degrees. The degradation is certainly a reason to replace, but SS isn't necessary of course. Even the SS lines degrade. I've heard they even degrade faster than rubber.

The real question to ask is not what is the data, but what is the data telling us? How do we take the raw data of those tests and compare it to the seat of the pants feeling? How does the measured expansion of 0.162 cc translate into pedal feel? Is it half, a quarter, 1/100th of what it should be in order to feel a difference? How does the total pedal travel difference between rubber and stainless steel lines translate into pedal feel through the entire range of motion, not just distance the pedal travels? In short, how does this data actually prove anything other than it's possible to measure certain things inside a brake system?

On edit: Also, time is an important factor here. If the rate of expansion between rubber and SS is different, even if the end expansion for a given pressure is the same, the pedal feel will be drastically different.

I may have missed the point. Sometimes when you are very knowledgeable about a subject, as this man clearly is, you take for granted the pieces of information that can be crucial for understanding. This information, when left out, leaves the layman and the ignorant questioning the results. To me, the biggest thing missing from this test is the translation between raw data and how the data proved to him that the rate of expansion from rubber to stainless steel is negligible enough to dismiss the notion that SS improve brake feel.

 

[Jimmysidecarr]

Jimmy, as far as lap times are concerned, what do you think that brake would do for you?
Would it just be a confidence thing, or would you gain several seconds per lap. I am assuming both, but just wanted to lead the question, so you could elaborate in greater detail

It's mainly a consumables improvement for me. Rotors and pads last longer. But the potential is there for shorter braking zones and therefore quicker times on each straight. Corner exit speed would be unaffected and thus still suck however.

From the article:

"For the particular Goodyear hose used on the '99-'04 Cobra the expansion increases by 60% at 160 deg. F... Another factor to consider with the stock hoses is that they will degrade with time compared to a quality braided line."

160 degrees F is nothing! I have the sneaky suspicion it takes little more than a spirited afternoon drive to get the brake lines to 160 degrees. The degradation is certainly a reason to replace, but SS isn't necessary of course. Even the SS lines degrade. I've heard they even degrade faster than rubber.

The real question to ask is not what is the data, but what is the data telling us? How do we take the raw data of those tests and compare it to the seat of the pants feeling? How does the measured expansion of 0.162 cc translate into pedal feel? Is it half, a quarter, 1/100th of what it should be in order to feel a difference? How does the total pedal travel difference between rubber and stainless steel lines translate into pedal feel through the entire range of motion, not just distance the pedal travels? In short, how does this data actually prove anything other than it's possible to measure certain things inside a brake system?

On edit: Also, time is an important factor here. If the rate of expansion between rubber and SS is different, even if the end expansion for a given pressure is the same, the pedal feel will be drastically different.

I may have missed the point. Sometimes when you are very knowledgeable about a subject, as this man clearly is, you take for granted the pieces of information that can be crucial for understanding. This information, when left out, leaves the layman and the ignorant questioning the results. To me, the biggest thing missing from this test is the translation between raw data and how the data proved to him that the rate of expansion from rubber to stainless steel is negligible enough to dismiss the notion that SS improve brake feel.

All good points.

I did all four hoses plus front calipers at the same time so I was not too sure what contributed what, but over all it for sure was an improvement and a significant one at that.

 

[mu22stang]

I did all four hoses plus front calipers at the same time so I was not too sure what contributed what, but over all it for sure was an improvement and a significant one at that.

I really can't say for sure how significant the difference is between OEM and SS. When I installed all four Max. Motorsports SS lines on my car, it was before a weekend at the track. So naturally, I went from stock rubber lines, old fluid, street pads, street rotors to SS lines, fresh fluid, track pads and track rotors.

I really just want to understand what the results of the above test mean for a driver in the seat, pressing the brake pedal.

 

[DocB]

I did just the 4 SS braided hoses at one point.

I can say for certain, for me, that there was an improvement in brake "feel".

Liked the feel so much that I did it on the other car.

This is my "seat of the pants" take on the subject, and I would recommend them to anyone as an improvement to the most important system on any car.

 

[Jpjr]

In process of installing the F14 kit. Fantastic fit and finish... waiting on a few parts to bleed her out and run. There is nothing like a purpose built kit for our cars rather than a big brake manufacturer trying to fit a square peg in a round hole in order to minimize customization and maximize profits.