Im back w/ more bad news, broken MMR Motor

[jrd699]

I do agree with you, my father and i have been talking about building our own motor, no one to blame but yourself at that point, but you would just think that you can still trust some shops to do good work, i know they are out there, but it seems like a coin toss. I know when i get some more time on my plate and move past this 2 year headache, i will tackle my own engine build, i feel my father and i are very capable and with some svtperformance help, it can go smoothly. Thanks again for your input.

Questions to all, if this whole situation with MMR goes south, do i have any type of legal case to resolve my issues, i have never run into something like this before. I know there are some lawyers on here as well as LEO's and so forth who know the law. Anybody?

Back to this, yes MMR has insurance for this type stuff. Worst case for them, they have to submit your motor job to their insurance co.

 

[ugotbit03]

I disagree, it is rocket science - you **** up the slightest bit, and it's no oops, it's a window in the side of a $5000 build. And as someone who does this kind of thing for a living, I can tell you first hand, that on the steal-tools-at-10%-of-cost-from-the-guy-who-is-retiring-and-liquidating-everything prices, the tools you would have into a motor build wouldn't be paid for in the first 100 motor builds.

the cheapest valve seat cutter on the market, let alone a bench tool that actually does the job well is $300+. for the latter, you're looking 4-5 figures. same goes for the tool to cut the valve. not to mention the tool to torque plate hone the block, overbore it, dip it, yaddah yaddah yaddah. even if you had a machine shop do the "major machine work" you're still a couple grand in micrometers, dial indiactors, etc. ask me how I know.

How do engine builders get their start? The same way most of us master techs did. We **** up a lot of shit and learn from it.




Because I'm not a guy working out of a 2 car garage with no lift, right? If you haven't timed the cams yet, you don't have 10% of the experience I'd suggest to build a motor. Installing a few push lock fittings on a pre cut fuel system is a far jump from determining what is, and what is not correct ptw clearance.

I love how you guys are suggesting building a 4V from scratch is as easy as bolting on some catbacks when neither of you claim to have ever done one. very informed sources. ROFL. read what I posted about my credentials, and I'm still smart enough to shop out anything past degreeing cams. do you ever stop to think...hmmm...I wonder why this engine building shop has a $100,000 machine just to get the perfectly flat finish on the bottom of my cylinder head. it certainly isn't because you can do it with some water and 1600 grit sandpaper. This is not a ****ing big block 60s chevy motor where you can just bolt anything to it willy nilly and hone the bores out with a wire bristle brush. shade tree mechanics died the day ford decided to go with small cubes and big airflow from 4v heads, cop, and msefi.

I have the same credentials as you, minus the degree. Honestly, while we are talking about degrees, I've met people with "degrees" that couldn't even hold a position at McDonald's being a "lettuce fluffer". You don't need a degree to build an engine. I'm willing to bet some of the best engine builders going barely made it out of high school.

Anyway, I don't feel the need to brag and post my resume on the Internet to impress people. I could give a shit. If you came here asking for help or advise I would give it to you, and not belittle you in the process.

I know and work with "Master Techs" that couldn't fix a ham sandwich.

I know how much the tools cost. I don't need to ask, I own them.

The same basic engine building principals apply to building a 281 CID 4V or 572 CID Chebby. Yes, we have DOHC engines. Yes, degreeing cams can be tricky. If YOU have the ability to degree cams you are selling yourself short by saying you can't assemble an engine. YOU have the knowledge.

Obviously the parts would need to be prepped by a quality machine shop. You know that. You are the one that brought up sandpaper. Some of the big name builders don't even have the equipment you mention. They sub out to a machine shop and then assemble the components.

Building your own is not about money. May it cost more, with tools added into the cost? Yes. But this is not about the money. It's about pride, learning new things and above all else, knowing it's done correctly, with not one doubt. I have read too many horror stories about someone putting all their faith in someone just to be let down or worse, ruined financially.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree, because I'm not going to ruin this thread bitching back and forth with you.

This story speaks for it's self. The company/builder that does this for a living with all the fancy tools and machines you mentioned, muffed up another one.

 

[95PGTTech]

Sorry all know motor building god, your immense knowledge and credentials have stopped me in my tracks, I must see the light now, I guess I will have to shell out 10k or more every time I want to put a motor in my car, stop telling yourself these things are ****ing rocket science dude, so your saying every engine builder out there machines all there own parts in house and assembles all there motors in house?

I respect the fact that you have quite a bit of knowledge and no doubt the degrees to back it up, but I've been to friends garages and there are plenty of at home motorheads who tackle there own engine build, with the right help and direction, and the right machine shop, it can be learned, yes, without having to take years of school, but to make it a career of course the knowledge of school is a must, in most cases. If I were to build a motor as a project, it would be the first of many, and a personal choice to blow 5k if the engine popped, even a couple of times. Stop calling it rocket it science, your making some peope out there think they arctually smart.

Not to bash but why would you turn someone away from a craft that has tons of knowledge and how to videos ( which I own quite a few of) to learn from. So let me tell you and help you out, this isn't rocket science? Because you don't know the first god damn thing about how a rocket works...and if you claim to I will...lol

Your mention of a machine shop throws your theory of "building your own motor" out the window. You do sort of a half-breed and drop off a block for machine work, the crank, rods, and piston assemblies for balancing, the heads for hot tank, deck, valve job, porting and then do all the reassembly yourself, but you're still going to be shelling out $1500+ in specialty tools. Most engine builders charge between $500 and $1000 in labor for the reassembly process...why not save some money and then if something goes wrong in the motor, it is 100% their responsibility. Unless you plan on building several motors, I don't see the point of the average mechanic owning all those tools and taking that risk. Nor would I call this truly "building" your own motor. As I said before, I do not build motors I install in customer cars - they come as complete longblocks from the engine builder. I will occasionally go as far into a motor as valve springs/cams/degree.

Can you go out and buy a balancer, a torque plate honing and boring machine, a hot tank, a crank balancer, a serdi valve machine, etc. and do it all yourself and learn by watching internet videos and reading books and build your own motor? Absolutely. Will it save you money? Absolutely not. Is it practical or intelligent? Absolutely not, unless you think your 4V is worth just shy of a million dollars. Will you destroy stuff, many times, during the learning process and have any satisfaction of doing it yourself turn into stress that causes you to drink yourself to death? Probably.

I by no means want to discourage anyone from working on their own car, I'm just trying to stress start with small jobs like oil changes, wiper blades, and brake pads and rotors and work your way up, but know when paying a little bit extra for a professional to do certain jobs with the right tools is worth your time, frustration, and peace of mind.

My point was that I'm not the all knowing motor God, I know when someone else can do a better job than I could and pass it off with no problem. I don't pretend to know shit about rockets either, I'd pay a professional to fix mine.

I have the same credentials as you, minus the degree. Honestly, while we are talking about degrees, I've met people with "degrees" that couldn't even hold a position at McDonald's being a "lettuce fluffer". You don't need a degree to build an engine. I'm willing to bet some of the best engine builders going barely made it out of high school.

Anyway, I don't feel the need to brag and post my resume on the Internet to impress people. I could give a shit. If you came here asking for help or advise I would give it to you, and not belittle you in the process.

I know and work with "Master Techs" that couldn't fix a ham sandwich.

I know how much the tools cost. I don't need to ask, I own them.

The same basic engine building principals apply to building a 281 CID 4V or 572 CID Chebby. Yes, we have DOHC engines. Yes, degreeing cams can be tricky. If YOU have the ability to degree cams you are selling yourself short by saying you can't assemble an engine. YOU have the knowledge.

Obviously the parts would need to be prepped by a quality machine shop. You know that. You are the one that brought up sandpaper. Some of the big name builders don't even have the equipment you mention. They sub out to a machine shop and then assemble the components.

Building your own is not about money. May it cost more, with tools added into the cost? Yes. But this is not about the money. It's about pride, learning new things and above all else, knowing it's done correctly, with not one doubt. I have read too many horror stories about someone putting all their faith in someone just to be let down or worse, ruined financially.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree, because I'm not going to ruin this thread bitching back and forth with you.

This story speaks for it's self. The company/builder that does this for a living with all the fancy tools and machines you mentioned, muffed up another one.

I gave my credentials to create context. I know what you mean about degrees and "master techs", I work with them too. I'm not one of them, I'm the shop foreman, when someone else ****s up or can't fix it, it's my problem and it doesn't leave until it gets fixed.

I COULD reassemble an engine if the machine shop did the stuff I don't have the expensive $100K machines for. My point is, I don't want to. Someone else can do a better job than I can because it's what they do for a living. As I said to the last guy, having a machine shop do the hard work and then you putting the pieces back together isn't building a motor in my mind, to each their own opinion.

Absolutely there are shops out there that would **** a motor up and waste your money. The conversation is operating under the assumption that you have a reputable, qualified shop. When you do it yourself, you don't know it's done correctly. All the internet and reading in the world doesn't replace experience. You hope you did it right, you followed every step to the letter and you hope that you chose the best of all available options and opinions and didn't **** something up.

 

[TRBO VNM]

I disagree, it is rocket science - you **** up the slightest bit, and it's no oops, it's a window in the side of a $5000 build. And as someone who does this kind of thing for a living, I can tell you first hand, that on the steal-tools-at-10%-of-cost-from-the-guy-who-is-retiring-and-liquidating-everything prices, the tools you would have into a motor build wouldn't be paid for in the first 100 motor builds.

the cheapest valve seat cutter on the market, let alone a bench tool that actually does the job well is $300+. for the latter, you're looking 4-5 figures. same goes for the tool to cut the valve. not to mention the tool to torque plate hone the block, overbore it, dip it, yaddah yaddah yaddah. even if you had a machine shop do the "major machine work" you're still a couple grand in micrometers, dial indiactors, etc. ask me how I know.

How do engine builders get their start? The same way most of us master techs did. We **** up a lot of shit and learn from it.




Because I'm not a guy working out of a 2 car garage with no lift, right? If you haven't timed the cams yet, you don't have 10% of the experience I'd suggest to build a motor. Installing a few push lock fittings on a pre cut fuel system is a far jump from determining what is, and what is not correct ptw clearance.

I love how you guys are suggesting building a 4V from scratch is as easy as bolting on some catbacks when neither of you claim to have ever done one. very informed sources. ROFL. read what I posted about my credentials, and I'm still smart enough to shop out anything past degreeing cams. do you ever stop to think...hmmm...I wonder why this engine building shop has a $100,000 machine just to get the perfectly flat finish on the bottom of my cylinder head. it certainly isn't because you can do it with some water and 1600 grit sandpaper. This is not a ****ing big block 60s chevy motor where you can just bolt anything to it willy nilly and hone the bores out with a wire bristle brush. shade tree mechanics died the day ford decided to go with small cubes and big airflow from 4v heads, cop, and msefi.

I think you are missing part of what these guys mean by building your own motor. Somewhere else in this thread was mentioned having a machine shop do all the machining and required work needed to set the block up correctly. Assmebling a motor isn't that hard, but I agree, having the block and heads prepped correctly is not a backyard garage thing to do with hand tools. You need the exepnsive precise tools to get the job done. I have degreed cams and swapped heads. I haven't built a shortblock, but would have no problem doing it. But would definitely make sure the machine shop prepped the block and checked the components prior to assembly. Assembly isn't that hard at all.

 

[earico]

I have the same credentials as you, minus the degree. Honestly, while we are talking about degrees, I've met people with "degrees" that couldn't even hold a position at McDonald's being a "lettuce fluffer". You don't need a degree to build an engine. I'm willing to bet some of the best engine builders going barely made it out of high school.

Anyway, I don't feel the need to brag and post my resume on the Internet to impress people. I could give a shit. If you came here asking for help or advise I would give it to you, and not belittle you in the process.

I know and work with "Master Techs" that couldn't fix a ham sandwich.

I know how much the tools cost. I don't need to ask, I own them.

The same basic engine building principals apply to building a 281 CID 4V or 572 CID Chebby. Yes, we have DOHC engines. Yes, degreeing cams can be tricky. If YOU have the ability to degree cams you are selling yourself short by saying you can't assemble an engine. YOU have the knowledge.

Obviously the parts would need to be prepped by a quality machine shop. You know that. You are the one that brought up sandpaper. Some of the big name builders don't even have the equipment you mention. They sub out to a machine shop and then assemble the components.

Building your own is not about money. May it cost more, with tools added into the cost? Yes. But this is not about the money. It's about pride, learning new things and above all else, knowing it's done correctly, with not one doubt. I have read too many horror stories about someone putting all their faith in someone just to be let down or worse, ruined financially.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree, because I'm not going to ruin this thread bitching back and forth with you.

This story speaks for it's self. The company/builder that does this for a living with all the fancy tools and machines you mentioned, muffed up another one.

Well said. In my 35 years on this earth I have learned that most people that brag about their credentials aren't the best at what they do. It's the humble ones that do the best work. Usually people that brag are over compensating. Not saying this guy is. It's just my general observation.

 

[Hangman]

Meeting with the engine builder Tim Eichorn, also the owner of MPR racing engines in Boynton Beacb today around 5:00, he still has all the pistons and components, so I will provide his analysis and photos of the parts. Cheers until later fellas.

And let's not clutter this thread anymore about being able to build a motor in the garage or the semantics that constitute what building a motor really means, start another thread, pretty please.

 

[NJredfire03]

Meeting with the engine builder Tim Eichorn, also the owner of MPR racing engines in Boynton Beacb today around 5:00, he still has all the pistons and components, so I will provide his analysis and photos of the parts. Cheers until later fellas.

And let's not clutter this thread anymore about being able to build a motor in the garage or the semantics that constitute what building a motor really means, start another thread, pretty please.

Thank you, I have been following your old thread and this new one very closely. It's almost like reality tv through a forum. I just really hope MMR can fix this if it is their mess up. And I just hope you don't get too discouraged through the whole process. The NY Mets and my Cobra have been like the best and worst girlfirends all in one. I can sympathize with you.

 

[Hangman]

Thank you, I have been following your old thread and this new one very closely. It's almost like reality tv through a forum. I just really hope MMR can fix this if it is their mess up. And I just hope you don't get too discouraged through the whole process. The NY Mets and my Cobra have been like the best and worst girlfirends all in one. I can sympathize with you.

It's been long and painful, am I discouraged, yes, disappointed yes, distrustful yes, will this be the end of cars for me? no, I have been bit by a whippled cobra and the side effects are permanent, this will be a speedbump and a lesson learned. Thank you for your comments, believe it or not, the support helps.

Another thing came to mind here, I had my pistons coated with I believe was a Teflon coating or something like that at the time of the build, it was extra but at the time I had it put on because I was going all out on the build. By grinding the piston top wouldn't it have removed the coating in that area, making it more susceptible to excess heat??

 

[NJredfire03]

It's been long and painful, am I discouraged, yes, disappointed yes, distrustful yes, will this be the end of cars for me? no, I have been bit by a whippled cobra and the side effects are permanent, this will be a speedbump and a lesson learned. Thank you for your comments, believe it or not, the support helps.

Another thing came to mind here, I had my pistons coated with I believe was a Teflon coating or something like that at the time of the build, it was extra but at the time I had it put on because I was going all out on the build. By grinding the piston top wouldn't it have removed the coating in that area, making it more susceptible to excess heat??

No problem and I'm not an engine genius, but I can imagine it would be the same as grinding down paint on a car and letting water get under the paint. Causing damage to more than just the ground down area.

 

[Hangman]

No problem and I'm not an engine genius, but I can imagine it would be the same as grinding down paint on a car and letting water get under the paint. Causing damage to more than just the ground down area.

Yeah that's kind of what I was thinking, but that question is open to anyone, I don't know if they coat the top of the pistons, although I would assume that would be expected.

And mainly guys, this goes to everone here, what is fair in this situation? Truly fair, that no one can argue about, because that's where my internal dilemma has been.

And if you want to have the verdict held until I get more photos, that is fine, I will be at the engine builder in 15 min and I will be taking multiple pics.

 

[Jimmysidecarr]

Anymore pics yet?

 

[Hangman]

Anymore pics yet?

Jimmy, just left the shop, photos are on the phone, will upload when I get home, all other pistons show signs Of detonation, #2 piston shows the worst damage, the ones next to number 2 shows the next worse damage and so on, the damage becomes less and less. None of the other pistons melted through and caused a huge hole in the piston or ruined the rods, only number 2 completely demolished piston and burnt the rod. The rest just have scarring on the sides of the piston.

Did number 2 failure cause the whole mess? oil passed into the manifold and went into the other pistons causing them to burn up??

Tune? Tuner assures it was a safe tune for first run on dyno...

Jimmy maybe we can talk if you have any wise words for me on this, I'm kinda lost here bud.

 

[ugotbit03]

If there was detonation, that's what caused the problem.

Sounds like tune related.

I wonder if the valve mark was enough of an edge for it to be a hot spot and start melting there.

I would be looking at bearings for further diag to see what, if anything can be salvaged.

 

[98 Saleen Cobra]

Wow this will be horrible if it was tune related..

 

[Hangman]

Photos soon, so there isn't any speculation, im just sick right now. Literally sick as I type.

 

[mysteed]

Wow what a crappy situation to be in. I would know too, as I am in the process of rebuilding my motor that the previous "shop" attempted to build. Good luck sir.

 

[Posi]

Hangman first off sorry for all of your troubles.

You and a lot of others (including myself and already purchased) need to check out the J&S Safeguard system.

J&S Vampire

That would have saved my original motor.

 

[Hangman]

Ok, so here is everything, I looked over my invoice when I bought the motor, i paid 299 for there coated pistons, there is no coating on any of the pistons that were in my motor. That was something i just noticed after the engine builder told me as well as my shop today that these pistons were not coated, and i'm sure you can see for yourself. That got me kind of ticked that i was misrepresented for what i paid for.

Here is a copy of the invoice:

Invoice removed until I black out pricing, that would not be fair to MMR, I used christmas deals and so forth to get my pricing. Apologies to all.

Both the engine builder and tuner, said major possibility is the failure of #2 which flooded oil into other pistons causing the rest of the destruction, Tuner told me if he felt something was off, he would take care of the whole thing no questions asked, I have known him a while, i get to meet him in person and i trust him, take that for what it is worth.

And finally! here are the 4 pistons on passenger side of motor, the other 4 were still in the motor and have not been removed, engine builder told me they all have minimal scarring on side of piston and have not been removed yet. Also, #2 cylinders spark plug was mashed in and smashed, the end was pancaked, most likely from the flying pieces of metal, all other spark plugs are in perfect working order.

The section of the #2 piston that was most destroyed, i was told by the Tim at MPR that that notch on the piston right by all the damage is where the fracture occurred at, he said it looked like the curved notch broken off, it could have started the whole thing, he pointed out to me the fracture mark and the segment of where the metal "broke off" NOT burned apart.

The worst one:

second worst one, next to #2: front and back

and the others: front and back

 

[98 Saleen Cobra]

wow man that is crazy.. It doesn't look like those pistons where coated at all like you said. It also looks like it detonation, or just to much heat.. I'm not 100% sure though.. I'll let the pro's talk.. I'm really sorry again to hear this man.

What was timing at for this tune, and you said 19psi?? Was that on pump 93??

 

[ugotbit03]

There is no coatings on the skirts, doesn't look like it on the crowns either.

Even if that piece broke off, the other pistons are still scuffed, like it got hot and they swelled up.

You can look at the bearings and pins for signs of detonation.

I would like to hear MMR's side.

ETA- What was the compression of this engine?

19 PSI on 93 can be done, but it's one bad tank of gas away from an engine. I hope that is not the case.