I drastically dropped my fuel temps by over 100F
- Thread starter MalcolmV8
- Start date
Of the new fuel hose layout? Basically this. Remember the FPR is in the passenger's fender well away from engine heat.
Initially pulled the fuel hose and pumped some fuel out for comparison. Quickly learned the fuel filter which on my car is under the passenger's door area of the underside of the car is super quick to get and touch by hand as well as shoot with the IR temp gun and is pretty spot on for temps. The rails is also a good check but do so right after stopping and popping the hood before the car sits and soaks them more. Or simply kick your pumps on if you have an over ride switch to do so (I have one in the trunk) and within 30 seconds or so the filter, regulator, and rails are all about similar temp which is the temp of your fuel.
Malcolm, was the test with E85 or 93? SIA if you posted that already
Also, I have found a PID that I've logged in the past with an sct2 handheld and its called "FUEL TEMP". The few times I logged with it, that parameter seemed to stay pretty consistent in the 130s after 30 minutes of driving (this is with E85 and ford gt pumps/returnless). I have no idea how accurate that PID is, or even where the sensor is plumbed to be taking the reading...just fyi
Also, I have found a PID that I've logged in the past with an sct2 handheld and its called "FUEL TEMP". The few times I logged with it, that parameter seemed to stay pretty consistent in the 130s after 30 minutes of driving (this is with E85 and ford gt pumps/returnless). I have no idea how accurate that PID is, or even where the sensor is plumbed to be taking the reading...just fyi
Both 91 and E85 over the course of weeks. If you're specifically talking about the test where I ran the pumps for 70 minutes straight with the Tundra powering the pumps that was E85.
As for temp sensor I've read that the fuel rail pressure sensor is also a fuel temp sensor. I've not looked in depth into it but I'd bet that's where the PID came from and is what you're logging. With returnless you don't have the heat issue. Hot fuel is never returned to the tank and cycled around and around heating it all up.
At times yes. I don't recall the exact one but it's one of the Aeromotive's like this
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/aei-12304/overview/
Be sure and get the stainless steel filter inside like the one in the link does. Mine had a fiber paper element inside so I had to pick up the replacement stainless steel mesh element afterwards and swap it out.
Sub'n
Malcolm, your extensive and systematic testing, and great results are going to help a lot of fellow Terminator owners. I enjoyed reading all of your posts, and the posts of others in this thread. You were on to something and wouldn't let it go. :thumbsup:
X2, great thread
I don't think brand matters to much but here's the basics. Walbro 455 pumps, Fore hat and rails. Fuel line is -8 with a mix of Pegasus Racing and Fore hose. Reason for Pegasus hose was the really nice finish black nylon braided finish over PTFE hose. It was $40 a foot though Vs what $8 a foot or so for Fore hose. Doing it again I'd skip the Pegasus. Although Pegasus had a huge selection of hose ends with 45, 60, 90, 180 degree bends etc. where as Fore has a very limited selection although you can still make it work. Fore regulator, Aeromotive fuel filter.
Yes always keep the FRPS and make sure your tuner knows. The ECU can and does increase/decrease injector pulse width to compensate for fluctuations in fuel pressure. If you remove it, it can be turned off in the tune but why would you do that?
EDIT: oh yeah and the little fuel pressure gauge on my rails for dialing in base PSI is from Summit racing. That reminds me of another useful tid bit. When setting base pressure do it on a completely cold motor. I found those small pressure gauges you mount to your fuel rails are affected by engine heat and don't read accurately when engine is fully warmed.
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mine ended up being div x hat, div x 365 pumps, fore rails, aeromotive a1000 regulator, aeromotive filter and summit ptfe lines with -8 feed and -6 return. still ended up being a butt ton of cash. I see why most don't go return style.lol
Nicely done Malcolm. I wonder how much of a difference adding a Glens Performance fuel cooler in the fender on the return line after regulator would help in cooling?one could use some ducting to direct airflow to the cooler aswell. I think i will try this setup this winter when the car is parked. My return is at the front of the tank not close to the feed line. Hoping with running a full tank all the time the returned fuel is cooled down enough before being picked up by the feed end at the back of the tank. I like the idea of a fuel cooler on the return mounted in the front fender.
Yes it's definitely expensive. When upping your returnless system though you're already in for a fuel hat, pumps and injectors and with the Whipple 2.9 crusher I was forced to go aftermarket rails. So at that point going return was just fuel lines, fuel filter and a regulator.
I'm sure a fuel cooler will help but at $200 + shipping it seemed to make more sense just re-routing the fuel flow as to not heat up through the rails in the first place. Also placement of the regulator in a cool location such as in the fender well is a big one.
Adding a cooler in addition to all that would be the ultimate but hasn't proven necessary for me.
Great thread Malcolm as always :rockon:
I was a bit surprised you routed your return system in series as shown on your first sketch and not have the rails in parallel.
The fuel rails themselves act like heat exchangers being bolted to a hot engine and the fuel will me bore than happy absorbing and storing it. I have a .030" thk sheet of garolite G10 which I am going to sandwich between the mounting tabs for the rails which will require facing off .030 from the mounting tabs to maintain the alignment of the injectors. That will impede the heat path from the engine to the rails in a big way. This might be something to consider since your new set-up "dead heads" the fuel in the rails which will run hotter because your gas tank is no longer a coolant reservoir for the rails.
So you added another "box" to your car! You take the word "mod" to a whole new level I think a custom ECU can't be far behind. Are you pulsing the secondary pump? If it's getting switch on and off constantly it might be better to throttle it down rather then cutting the power completely if you not doing that already. That should make the pump and electrical system happier.
I was a bit surprised you routed your return system in series as shown on your first sketch and not have the rails in parallel.
The fuel rails themselves act like heat exchangers being bolted to a hot engine and the fuel will me bore than happy absorbing and storing it. I have a .030" thk sheet of garolite G10 which I am going to sandwich between the mounting tabs for the rails which will require facing off .030 from the mounting tabs to maintain the alignment of the injectors. That will impede the heat path from the engine to the rails in a big way. This might be something to consider since your new set-up "dead heads" the fuel in the rails which will run hotter because your gas tank is no longer a coolant reservoir for the rails.
So you added another "box" to your car! You take the word "mod" to a whole new level I think a custom ECU can't be far behind. Are you pulsing the secondary pump? If it's getting switch on and off constantly it might be better to throttle it down rather then cutting the power completely if you not doing that already. That should make the pump and electrical system happier.
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Thanks
As for the rails back when I was first designing my original system I looked at the diameter of the aftermarket rails and the volume of fluid in there Vs how quickly the injectors could drain them been stuck open at 100% duty cycle. It wasn't even close. The rails are like fire hoses and the injectors like tiny garden hoses. There was no advantage to running parallel till you get to insanely larger injectors than any of us will ever run. It took way more parts to plumb in parallel too and since there was no advantage I went series.Actually my testing has found the through rail system actually ran hotter in the rails than dead head. Once all the fuel was up to temp my rails and fuel was running at 220F plus. The entire fuel system was completely saturated and over heating. Where as in the dead head system cool fuel is coming into the rails and getting heated. The fuel doesn't sit there long enough to heat up as much. I haven't data logged numbers while driving but I'd pull over and shoot the rails with an IR temp gun and in dead head mode I was seeing around 157 ~ 160F on the rails. Obviously the harder you drive the car the cooler they are because the fuel doesn't sit in them as long.
My current design runs the primary pump 100% power. When it needs the second pump because say I'm at WOT in the top of 3rd it'll snap on the second pump 100%. I also built in a delay so the second pump stays on for 5 seconds after it's no longer needed so as you're banging gears or getting in and out of boost or what ever you're doing the second pump is not snapping in and out like the HOBs switch does.
So I guess it has two advantages. One is that it only turns on the 2nd pump when actually needed. Second is that it keeps the pump on with a buffer when it does turn on to prevent it snapping in and out and hammering the electrical system as well as pulsing the pump on and off.
It works very well although I've since thought maybe I should make a second generation of the module that modulates the first pump in normal low throttle driving and runs the pump at say 25% power and then as fuel demand goes up increase the duty cycle on the pump. Same with the second pump, bring it in slowly and increase duty cycle as the demand goes up. I think my initial design was plenty good though, it's super easy to setup, doesn't require expensive motor controls and heat sinks etc. Sometimes the most simple approach is the best.
You laugh about building a fuel injection system
but it's been a hobby of mine for a while. I designed my own basic one that would run a single cylinder engine. I just love doing that stuff, don't have any real practical reason for it. I've since started looking at building my own MegaSquirt system since it's one of the ultimate DIY systems. My original thought was to convert my boat from a carb to EFI with it but man who needs all the complicated electronics to give you headaches out on the lake lol. I'm tempted to build something for the Cobra just because it's what I enjoy doing... don't really need it lol.Can you snap a pic of your regulator mounted please. Would you happen to plan on selling these sweet little boxes? I have yet to go return as heat was of concern and I'm not quite there. I want to try E-85 when I get tuned so I know that should justify the need of a return system. I just want to make sure I have everything worked out before I make the drive. This is another project I plan on tackling not to mention finishing up with previous. Thats a different story though......
Great job Malcolm
Great job Malcolm
Awesome thread as usual Malcolm! Bums me out that you changed the routing though because I already have my routing like your original setup, even though I'm still returnless. I did that when I installed my Whipple and Fore rails so that I wouldn't have to pull the blower again when I got around to upgrading to a return fuel system. I remember it was a bear getting that crossover line across the back of the blower so I don't relish the thought of redoing that to make it deadhead. Do you think it would make a big enough difference just running the fpr in the fender well, but keeping the rails in series? In my case I would likely need to run from the front of the driver's side rail, into that fender well with the reg, then back to the tank from there. The only difference in exposure of fuel line would be the 10" or so running behind the blower from what I can imagine compared to your deadhead routing. What are your thoughts? I definitely think staging the pumps is the way to go. Does that module you designed need special tuning or adjusting, or is it "plug and play"?
Brian
Brian
I don't know if this has been said already because I'm not willing to read every comment to add my 2 cents. When I did my set up my regulator was at the rear of the car near the tank to eliminate this issue, obviously with dead headed rails. Only difference is I used an external a1000 with a sump tank. Excellent write up though
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