EPA & SCT | Is the Future of Modifying Cars Over Based on This??

[Revvv]

@Revvv Does that mean you have @dannydarko11 supplying you popcorn or are there concession stands at the courthouse?

Some of the cases I have witnessed, and the strategies used are better than any movie. If snacks were allowed in the courtroom I would open a concession stand.

I'm pretty sure beer sales would beat most sporting events.

Sent from my [trashcan S5] using the svtperformance.com mobile app

 

[derklug]

For a vehicle to meet it's emmisions standards, the entire system needs to be working as designed. You can program better fuel economy, which many would think leads to lower emissions, and you would be wrong. There are numerous trade-offs that engineers have to make to get a vehicle to meet emissions and get the best power and fuel economy possible.
The EPA came down on tuners that set up their chips to meet standards when run on an emissions dyno long before VW thought of it. Convertor "test pipes" were one of the first products that I remember the EPA going after.
What is coming down is the end to slapping an "Off-road use only" tag on any piece of performance software that you care to market. I don't like it, but the coal rollers stuffed it right in the face of the EPA until they had to do something.

 

[dannydarko11]

@Revvv Does that mean you have @dannydarko11 supplying you popcorn or are there concession stands at the courthouse?

I supply for all, fam lol.

Some of the cases I have witnessed, and the strategies used are better than any movie. If snacks were allowed in the courtroom I would open a concession stand.

I'm pretty sure beer sales would beat most sporting events.

Sent from my [trashcan S5] using the svtperformance.com mobile app

 

[Nuked]

https://www.justice.gov/enrd/consent-decree/file/1095996/download

Some interesting stuff in the settlement details, worth giving a read. Few tidbits... Appears that SCT basically said how to delete the CEL from a cat removed vehicle right in the instructions, this was a no no that likely nailed them. Part of the agreement states that is to be removed and all IP pertaining how to do so cannot be sold, transferred etc moving forward. Also lists the "Custom Tuning Software" used by the customer to alter parameters. All new customers aka tuners and end users of Advantage 3 must be verified as to what the primary use will be and all existing customers must be verified upon renewal of license. Jist of that is the Emissions parameters will be unaccessable by anyone using SCT to tune in the future.

 

[SID297]

If you want to get technical, the entire OEM tune can be considered an emissions device.

 

[BigPoppa]

Honestly, most of this is ultimately going to be for show anyway.

Bottom line, the tech is out there already and can easily be reversed engineered by those willing to do it.

Like Sid mentioned, this was just a flexing of muscle by the EPA. SCT will play ball, get their slap on the wrist and tuners will keep on tuning.

 

[Revvv]

If you want to get technical, the entire OEM tune can be considered an emissions device.

Exactly my point. This settlement by SCT has opened a lot of unknown doors that could potentially affect the entire performance and builder hobby.

Sent from my [trashcan S5] using the svtperformance.com mobile app

 

[Weather Man]

Honestly, most of this is ultimately going to be for show anyway.

Bottom line, the tech is out there already and can easily be reversed engineered by those willing to do it.

Like Sid mentioned, this was just a flexing of muscle by the EPA. SCT will play ball, get their slap on the wrist and tuners will keep on tuning.

It depends how far the EPA takes this.

 

[SID297]

Exactly my point. This settlement by SCT has opened a lot of unknown doors that could potentially affect the entire performance and builder hobby.

Sent from my [trashcan S5] using the svtperformance.com mobile app

Don't get hung up on the settlement. It doesn't mean much future prosecutions. The thing to watch for is if the EPA moves on to something else, or if other companies are next. It's probably not a good idea to be marketing MIL eliminators right now.

 

[Zemedici]

Exactly my point. This settlement by SCT has opened a lot of unknown doors that could potentially affect the entire performance and builder hobby.

Sent from my [trashcan S5] using the svtperformance.com mobile app

glad I got out the scene

 

[96gt02]

Guy its not as bad as it seems, here is a direct response from SCT, its almost seems like this might be a good thing for them as its already dealt with and they can continue without issues now and all the other players are likely to get hit hard for next few years.....

here is a response to the EPA release from us here at derive and some actions we are taking to comply with EPA regulations
• This is a huge win for our business. With this agreement in place, we are the ONLY federally compliant player in the aftermarket
• Under the agreement we will make investments to demonstrate environmental leadership in the industry:
o We will be conducting vehicle-group-based emissions tests on new applications we support
o We will conduct retroactive testing on a subset of past model year applications
o We will remove user adjustable options associated with O2 and EGR on our devices
o We will develop additional training for our custom tuning dealers and include regulatory compliance as part of this education
o We will continue to invest in our compliance team, reseller agreements, etc
• We will continue selling our existing tuners and Advantage software. Every product we sell today is legal

 

[Revvv]

Don't get hung up on the settlement. It doesn't mean much future prosecutions. The thing to watch for is if the EPA moves on to something else, or if other companies are next. It's probably not a good idea to be marketing MIL eliminators right now.

This is the trickle down effect I am concerned about. If the EPA gets greedy we could see an impact on the hobby and business side of the performance industry.

Don't misunderstand what I am saying; performance enthusiasts have always found a way to modify their vehicles. Every part starts with an idea, an experiment, and then a prototype. Early hotrodders were extremely creative. There may have been a common idea in regard to a modification, but at the end of the day parts were hand made, one-off items.

The aftermarket has made things easy for the car hobby. If anything else happens, and we begin to see a waterfall of prosecution we could be starting over in regard to where we stand now in regard to aftermarket parts.

I admit, my view is on the extreme side. I like to plan for the worst and hope for the best. This allows a plan of attack and defense just in case such a thing is needed.

Sent from my [trashcan S5] using the svtperformance.com mobile app

 

[Revvv]

Guy its not as bad as it seems, here is a direct response from SCT, its almost seems like this might be a good thing for them as its already dealt with and they can continue without issues now and all the other players are likely to get hit hard for next few years.....

here is a response to the EPA release from us here at derive and some actions we are taking to comply with EPA regulations
• This is a huge win for our business. With this agreement in place, we are the ONLY federally compliant player in the aftermarket
• Under the agreement we will make investments to demonstrate environmental leadership in the industry:
o We will be conducting vehicle-group-based emissions tests on new applications we support
o We will conduct retroactive testing on a subset of past model year applications
o We will remove user adjustable options associated with O2 and EGR on our devices
o We will develop additional training for our custom tuning dealers and include regulatory compliance as part of this education
o We will continue to invest in our compliance team, reseller agreements, etc
• We will continue selling our existing tuners and Advantage software. Every product we sell today is legal

What I see here is a compliance in regard to their settlement. I also see a marketing strategy in place.

With this in mind though, it is very possible to see new innovations take place.

Sent from my [trashcan S5] using the svtperformance.com mobile app

 

[PaxtonShelby]

Time to buy an old, emissions exempt car...

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

This.

 

[SecondhandSnake]

Also considering a lot of this stuff ties back to mating to a specific ECU/VIN - just wait till the EPA decides it wants a list of customers....

That's what they did in the first wave with some of the diesel tuners. To get the "off road" capable tuning you had to give a VIN- which would be put in a database and no longer be allowed to register as an on road vehicle. Ever.

If you want to get technical, the entire OEM tune can be considered an emissions device.

From the EPA/CARB standpoint, nearly everything is considered part of the emissions system. Fuel system, air intake, even the cooling system. I'm curious how far they're going to push them. Is it going to be "you can't touch any EGR or catalyst diagnostics" or is it going to extend to fuel tables, injector timing, spark timing, EVAP systems...

Guy its not as bad as it seems, here is a direct response from SCT, its almost seems like this might be a good thing for them as its already dealt with and they can continue without issues now and all the other players are likely to get hit hard for next few years.....

here is a response to the EPA release from us here at derive and some actions we are taking to comply with EPA regulations
• This is a huge win for our business. With this agreement in place, we are the ONLY federally compliant player in the aftermarket
• Under the agreement we will make investments to demonstrate environmental leadership in the industry:
o We will be conducting vehicle-group-based emissions tests on new applications we support
o We will conduct retroactive testing on a subset of past model year applications
o We will remove user adjustable options associated with O2 and EGR on our devices
o We will develop additional training for our custom tuning dealers and include regulatory compliance as part of this education
o We will continue to invest in our compliance team, reseller agreements, etc
• We will continue selling our existing tuners and Advantage software. Every product we sell today is legal

Seems like a lot of spin from them to try and keep people from going with other software.

Not looking forward to them bricking my current software, or removing any capabilities. If they do I'll jump to Moates or even Holley in a heartbeat.

 

[Corbic]

I wonder how long before the EPA clamps down on the OEMs.

Technically, the OEMs could sue any of these tuning companies for Copy-write and IP infringement. They are technically illegally manipulating proprietary software and then profiting off of that.

 

[BigPoppa]

I wonder how long before the EPA clamps down on the OEMs.

Technically, the OEMs could sue any of these tuning companies for Copy-write and IP infringement. They are technically illegally manipulating proprietary software and then profiting off of that.

Interesting.

Since you are only changing parameters and not the logic, does it qualify as a derivative work or would Lewis Galoob Toys, Inc. v. Nintendo of America, Inc. apply here?

 

[Revvv]

Interesting.

Since you are only changing parameters and not the logic, does it qualify as a derivative work or would Lewis Galoob Toys, Inc. v. Nintendo of America, Inc. apply here?

Very good question.

Sent from my [trashcan S5] using the svtperformance.com mobile app

 

[MachME]

You can still have SCT tune, you just wont be able to turn off rear 02, delete PCV, EGR etc.

Which brings up my point from previous, newer cars can throw a 02 code even with a cat in place.

 

[96gt02]

SCT has already been implementing this stuff for several months as others have said they already took away all the emissions delete user options a while ago and the OR tuners havent been sold in years other then the 5015C competition livewire for diesels I dont know of any other tuner that can account for deleted emissions components currently. Not much is gonna change over what has already changed