Dyno results

[bsmith782]

Is there an explination for this somewhere. Im not saying either will win but how could someone really prove that?

Is the fact that alot of f-bodies run with cobras with more HP the proof?

A n/a car making 450hp WILL outrun a FI car making 450hp.

So whats the argument?

 

[droptopsnake01]

Is there an explination for this somewhere. Im not saying either will win but how could someone really prove that?

Is the fact that alot of f-bodies run with cobras with more HP the proof?

Well really a n/a car makes that power all across the board and it just dosnt let up. Also in REAL WORLD situations it dosnt have to deal with heat soak, belt slip, boost problems etc.

I street race and have seen alot of street racing and it happens all the time. Honestly this is more than enough proof.

If any of you guys are close to NC I would love to prove it to you, we have some n/a guys around here that would love to rip into a FI mustang but they know their role with me:rockon:

 

[Nazman]

We'll say, for sake of argument, that a roots blower takes 50hp to run. That being the case, you are correct it takes 50 more crank hp for a FI car to make the same power. The problem arises here: those are RWHP numbers. That 50hp necessary to drive the blower is already accounted for in the rwhp number. You might say that a blower is heavy, and that 50hp is needed to offset the additional weight, and you'd be right on two identical cars. However, we're not talknig about identical cars so its a moot point.

Quick video. Very much similar power level.

Terminator:

Pulley, Mid Pipe, CB, CAI, Tune, etc.

New Edge:

FR500 HCI, Supporting mods, etc.

[ame=http://videos.streetfire.net/video/99-Cobra-vs-03-Cobra_95511.htm]99 Cobra vs. 03 Cobra- Video[/ame]

Notice, the New Edge granny shiffting, other than the 3-4 shift that the driver pick-up the shifting a bit.

So, similar HP levels, and notice how the NA car walks the FI car. Even with the "flat" TQ of the Eaton.

Another thing that you guys are overlooking is RPM, which will play a huge factor.

Naz

 

[po-po 5.0]

Well really a n/a car makes that power all across the board and it just dosnt let up.

but it doesn't. NA cars torque curves are constantly increasing with rpm whereas a roots cars torque curve is flat across a very wide rpm range.

 

[po-po 5.0]

Quick video. Very much similar power level.

Terminator:

Pulley, Mid Pipe, CB, CAI, Tune, etc.

New Edge:

FR500 HCI, Supporting mods, etc.

99 Cobra vs. 03 Cobra- Video

Notice, the New Edge granny shiffting, other than the 3-4 shift that the driver pick-up the shifting a bit.

So, similar HP levels, and notice how the NA car walks the FI car. Even with the "flat" TQ of the Eaton.

Another thing that you guys are overlooking is RPM, which will play a huge factor.

Naz

We can all point to particular races were car x beat car y, but I just can't believe that NA will beat FI as a rule of thumb.

 

[na svt]

We can all point to particular races were car x beat car y, but I just can't believe that NA will beat FI as a rule of thumb.

If both had the same gears the result may have been different.

 

[olgreydog7]

Like Naz said, and I did too I might add, RPM is a factor. Think of it this way, rpm is directly involved in speed. The faster the engine turns, the faster the wheels turn. Yes, there is a transmission in the way, but stay with me here. Unless you have a 16 speed like Mack trucks, a car that can rev higher, will go faster. Since the wind resistance increases exponentially to speed, you need more power at higher speeds to go faster. A pd blower makes that power lower, a centri makes it, but you have to wait to get there, but an na car keeps making it as you rev higher. Make sense?

True a different car with a different driver on a different day will have a different result, but the majority of the time it will be the na car on top given the cars have similar peak power levels.

 

[tmhutch]

Your graph sucked, I think its disengenous, and even if its legit it doesn't prove anything.

Its disingenious because torque is a HUGE factor. Not to mention that lining the hp peaks up like that doesn't mean anything in the real world.

Compared to a terminator with just a pulley something with a well thought out package of matched H/C/I is a lot fancier.


Which I don't believe at all. The reason I said what I did was because the only thing that made sense was that he was talking about the power to drive the blower.

Wait.....are you trying to tell me that 4v fords AREN'T peaky? The cars that you need 4.56s to drag race with!? Come on..... One look at the torque curve of the terminator he posted shows what I'm talking about. That torque curve is as flat as a tabletop. You don't see that on an NA car.


There's a guy here in town whos DD is a stock pullied termi. He has a k&n, a midpipe, and a catback. After a tune he put down 440/427.

Let's be honest. You know 75% of your responses are non-sense. You're just pretending to be confused because you love all the attention. What should we argue about next, that Mustangs are actually built by Chevrolet in a secret plant near area 51?

I will address the one sensible thing you said. The reason the graph is "stepped" looking is because a very short portion of the dyno run (1500 RPM) is stretched over an entire graph. That will greatly exagerate any un-eveness.

For those interested here is a 550+ rwhp whippled terminator. Notice the drop of 90+ horsepower between shift points. Very much like the other graph.

 

[olgreydog7]

:lol: I think you mean Area 51.

 

[tmhutch]

:lol: I think you mean Area 51.

LOL, yeh. Fat fingered it.

 

[no cigar]

I've been following this thread and I think you can take this how you want but it seems to me that your entire plan is centered around trying to duplicate Naz's setup by merely chatting him up, reading forums, and bolting on his parts. Now, the numbers are low and you, and just about everyone else in this thread seems to be absolutely clueless about what is going on. Your posts on here would lead me to believe you have a very specific goal in mind but it's really not your own, just a painted over version of what someone else has done. I see lots of people playing expert and throwing out all these graphs and explanations and numbers but has anyone solved anything? It's a hobby with a million different factors and unknowns and everyone is putting on their powertrain engineer hat. It seems like nobody, not even the OP has any idea at all really whats going on.

 

[na svt]

I've been following this thread and I think you can take this how you want but it seems to me that your entire plan is centered around trying to duplicate Naz's setup by merely chatting him up, reading forums, and bolting on his parts. Now, the numbers are low and you, and just about everyone else in this thread seems to be absolutely clueless about what is going on. Your posts on here would lead me to believe you have a very specific goal in mind but it's really not your own, just a painted over version of what someone else has done. I see lots of people playing expert and throwing out all these graphs and explanations and numbers but has anyone solved anything? It's a hobby with a million different factors and unknowns and everyone is putting on their powertrain engineer hat. It seems like nobody, not even the OP has any idea at all really whats going on.

What? Hell yes he duplicated another persons combo, only not just Naz's, but many others. Many people have bolted on the exact same parts and Carlos was not the first, nor is it the highest HP. The FR500 parts were designed to work together so why not use them?

Furthermore, it seems that us inexperienced powertrain engineers have helped him find two problems that can cause low power, if they're culprit he'll know as soon as they are fixed.

 

[olgreydog7]

I've been following this thread and I think you can take this how you want but it seems to me that your entire plan is centered around trying to duplicate Naz's setup by merely chatting him up, reading forums, and bolting on his parts. Now, the numbers are low and you, and just about everyone else in this thread seems to be absolutely clueless about what is going on. Your posts on here would lead me to believe you have a very specific goal in mind but it's really not your own, just a painted over version of what someone else has done. I see lots of people playing expert and throwing out all these graphs and explanations and numbers but has anyone solved anything? It's a hobby with a million different factors and unknowns and everyone is putting on their powertrain engineer hat. It seems like nobody, not even the OP has any idea at all really whats going on.

How can you not expect someone to take offense to that? I planned this build out and researched it alot before I went with it. I also considered PSRs, the Sully, various other cams, a Paxton, a Procharger, and an Eaton swap. The guys "playing expert" used data from their own experience, not just cut and pasted from the internet. Well, at least nasvt, tmhutch, and Naz, who I think are the only ones that posted such info. If you want to doubt the knowledge of those guys, go ahead. Alot of people doubted that the Earth was round at one time too.

As for getting Naz's parts, yes I did get his intake and he ported my heads. Try to find an FR500 intake, there are not many around. I actually bought that intake from someone else, just happened to be who he sold it to. Since he has a good rep on here and other sites, and he made good power with that intake, why not get the same person to port my heads? Making power is about matching parts, not just bolting them on, which it sounds as if you would agree to that.

How am I clueless as to what's going on? I may have a cam timing issue and I am definitely running out of fuel at 6100 rpm (curiously that is 400 rpm before my power takes a dive when it should pull to 7200 rpm). So Mr Genius Car Man, what is my problem if it is not that? Or do you just think that a full bolt on H/C/I Cobra will only make 346rwhp?

I'm not sure what you mean about the goals. Ultimately, I want about 450 rwhp na. On the stock shortblock my goal is 380 rwhp. That was a reason I bought the parts I did. They should get me to my goal once I get the bb/stroker. I'm going to assume you think I want to rebuild Naz's car. I don't. It's a bad ass car, just like droptops, but not what I want. Really what I want is a car that will take a Z06, ride like a M3, out handles a 911, and idles like a stock Cobra. Is that specific enough for you?

The thread did get a bit off topic, but I kinda expected a FI vs NA argument to break out. It always seems to happen when an NA car makes less than the owner expected, but never when an FI car blows up.

What? Hell yes he duplicated another persons combo, only not just Naz's, but many others. Many people have bolted on the exact same parts and Carlos was not the first, nor is it the highest HP. The FR500 parts were designed to work together so why not use them?

Furthermore, it seems that us inexperienced powertrain engineers have helped him find two problems that can cause low power, if they're culprit he'll know as soon as they are fixed.

Thanks, pretty much addresses his accusations in a calm and reasonable manner.