Dyno results

[olgreydog7]

Yup I did. If tmclutch had posted a dyno comparison of a centri car vs an NA car at similar power levels he would have had something. I just can't wrap my head around the idea that a roots blown car at the same power level as an NA car is slower. Those roots cars make great torque everywhere.

Yea, the torque will get it going, but it still needs to rev to make horse power. Also, look at the rpm ranges. The blower car will need to shift sooner and will not be going as fast when he shifts. Assume same tranny and gears, a moving car is easier to move faster, so the fast you are going with more power, the fast you will go again. Kinda a bad explination, but make sense? I would probably say that in the 1/8th mile, the pd blower wins, in the 1/4 the na car wins.

 

[po-po 5.0]

Yea, the torque will get it going, but it still needs to rev to make horse power. Also, look at the rpm ranges. The blower car will need to shift sooner and will not be going as fast when he shifts. Assume same tranny and gears, a moving car is easier to move faster, so the fast you are going with more power, the fast you will go again. Kinda a bad explination, but make sense? I would probably say that in the 1/8th mile, the pd blower wins, in the 1/4 the na car wins.

those assumptions really aren't good ones to make though. What you're suggesting is that a PD blower car "handicapped" with a drivetrain thats more appropriate for a peaky NA car will have issues. Well....duh! There's nothing that requires a PD car to shift at such low rpms either. It just so happens, though, that the stock redlien on a termi is 6500.

The bottom line is that the poster was trying to prove that NA at a given power level is always better, and his confusing example didn't really support his conviction.

 

[olgreydog7]

Really? Have you seen the number of guys on here do an Eaton swap? Sure a hard core racer may match his gears and tranny perfectly to his motor, but most of us don't have that ability. My tranny and rear were put together when I was planning an Eaton swap, so it's not the best for what I ended up doing. Plus, the motor that we are talking about was anything but peaky. Actually, a PD blower will run out of steam as you spin it faster. The intake and heads won't be able to flow enough. It's not like a centri that blows harder as you spin it faster. A PD blower is basically all or nothing. Any differences in boost are caused my flow characteristics of the intake and heads, not the actual pump or rotors. The centri is designed to move more air as it spins faster, and it is exponentially proprtional to the RPM. So there is a reason the redline is lower. I don't think he was trying to say always, rather he was giving an example of when it would be better using actual data and not just assumptions.

 

[silver2001cobra]

olegrey, do u have an eletric waterpump? if so did it give you more hp?

 

[po-po 5.0]

Really? Have you seen the number of guys on here do an Eaton swap? Sure a hard core racer may match his gears and tranny perfectly to his motor, but most of us don't have that ability. My tranny and rear were put together when I was planning an Eaton swap, so it's not the best for what I ended up doing. Plus, the motor that we are talking about was anything but peaky. Actually, a PD blower will run out of steam as you spin it faster. The intake and heads won't be able to flow enough. It's not like a centri that blows harder as you spin it faster. A PD blower is basically all or nothing. Any differences in boost are caused my flow characteristics of the intake and heads, not the actual pump or rotors. The centri is designed to move more air as it spins faster, and it is exponentially proprtional to the RPM. So there is a reason the redline is lower. I don't think he was trying to say always, rather he was giving an example of when it would be better using actual data and not just assumptions.

I know how PD vehicles work. I had a gen II L until July of this year. Yes all vehicles are compromised in the real world. All of these things make his argument even more useless. You really can't say that one is better than the other. However, a layperson might look at that graph and be convinced that NA was the way to go. Its just a really crappy graph to back up a pretty weak argument.

 

[Quadcammer]

You have the most consistent string of negative derogatory posts I've ever seen.

stop trying to give away my crown...dammit.

 

[droptopsnake01]

stop trying to give away my crown...dammit.

its mine bitch!!!!!

In all honesty I really do not mean to be negative, Im just honest b/c I know it sucks when you invest your hard earned money into something and it does not turn out like you wanted.

Obviously Im a FI guy, and don't think NA is the most cost effective way to make power but I understand thats my opinion, BUT in the world we live in now people always want MORE so Im upfront with it. But I also understand not everybody wants what I want to. Obviousely yellow 01 tt cobras are the best, but for the "other" people they make other colors and mods :-D

Either way I really do hope best for the car, shoot you might pick up more power than you think with a fuel pump and setting up the cams properly. Then throw some gas at it and it will be a lil nasty devil!

Goodluck man! :beer:

 

[E. Green Cobra]

I understand that n/a 5.4's are like Prozac, give the swap a try:lol1:.

its mine bitch!!!!!

In all honesty I really do not mean to be negative, Im just honest b/c I know it sucks when you invest your hard earned money into something and it does not turn out like you wanted.

Obviously Im a FI guy, and don't think NA is the most cost effective way to make power but I understand thats my opinion, BUT in the world we live in now people always want MORE so Im upfront with it. But I also understand not everybody wants what I want to. Obviousely yellow 01 tt cobras are the best, but for the "other" people they make other colors and mods :-D

Either way I really do hope best for the car, shoot you might pick up more power than you think with a fuel pump and setting up the cams properly. Then throw some gas at it and it will be a lil nasty devil!

Goodluck man! :beer:

 

[1Quick4.6]

You mean the oil pump right? Since you know whats going on.:lol1:

My bad the point was it still took a built motor to get there and you have one of those.

 

[coolguy10786]

You mean the oil pump right? Since you know whats going on.:lol1:

How much damage did that pump letting go do? Glad you got it fixed

 

[droptopsnake01]

How much damage did that pump letting go do? Glad you got it fixed

Polished the crank and bearings.

 

[tmhutch]

1. Something just doesn't ring true about that.
2. What I'm saying is that those particular curves don't make sense.
3. The graphs just don't sit right with me.
4. It still doesn't make the information any more believable!
5. Was that shit hand drawn!?
6. I just can't wrap my head around the idea that a roots blown car at the same power level as an NA car is slower.
7. The poster was trying to prove that NA at a given power level is always better.
8. His confusing example didn't really support his conviction.
9. All of these things make his argument even more useless.
10. Its just a really crappy graph to back up a pretty weak argument

Let me see if I have this right: My "crappy" "confusing" "unbelievable" graph doesnt back up my "useless" "weak" conviction that "NA at a given power level is always better".

Why dont you say what you really feel.

This isnt a debate. It's been settled long ago. So you need an extra 50 hp. So what. Dial up the boost and quit pissing yourself silly about it.

The graph represents two actual, not hypothetical, vehicles with the same peak horsepower. The chart simply shifts the graphs so peak hp is shown at the same spot. Theres no way to do this with Winpep software so I extrapolated the curves to an Excel graphing tool.

It simply quantifies what most people already know from real world experience. With both cars making the same "peak" horsepower, the FI car will get smoked, ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL, DRIVER ABILITY, PROPERLY MATCHED DRIVETRAIN ETC.

It take about 50 more horsepower for a roots forced induction car to keep up with a naturally aspirated car. A centri car would need even more. OF COURSE THEY ARE ALSO CAPABLE OF MAKING THAT ADDITIONAL 50-75 HOREPOWER THAT IS NEEDED, AND MORE.

This is just a comparison to show each cars strengths relative to the other. A forced induction car excels with brute horsepower and a naturally aspirated car capitalizes on efficiency and a broad power curve.

DOES THAT MAKE ONE BETTER THAN THE OTHER? NOOOOO. But a naturally aspirated car does deserve a little respect even though it's not capable of the maximum numbers attainable by forced induction.

Naz said it best, they're two different animals. Both awesome. Dont be so quick to get your forced induction feelings hurt.

Heres the Terminator graph that was used. It represents a full bolt on, pullied car with max tune. No porting on the blower. No aftermarket blower. If you go to the Terminator section and do a search you can find several nearly identical graphs in the 440hp to 460hp range.

 

[po-po 5.0]

Let me see if I have this right: My "crappy" "confusing" "unbelievable" graph doesnt back up my "useless" "weak" conviction that "NA at a given power level is always better".

Why dont you say what you really feel.

Ok I will: your graph sucked, I think its disengenous, and even if its legit it doesn't prove anything.

This isnt a debate. It's been settled long ago. So you need an extra 50 hp. So what. Dial up the boost and quit pissing yourself silly about it.

My cobra is NA.

The graph represents two actual, not hypothetical, vehicles with the same peak horsepower. The chart simply shifts the graphs so peak hp is shown at the same spot. Theres no way to do this with Winpep software so I extrapolated the curves to an Excel graphing tool.

Which is fine if a bit misleading. However, HP doesn't tell the whole story. Also, you picked a well thought out NA combo to compare against a pulley only terminator. Lastly, I've never seen a terminator power curve look as "stepped" as that.

It simply quantifies what most people already know from real world experience. With both cars making the same "peak" horsepower, the FI car will get smoked, ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL, DRIVER ABILITY, PROPERLY MATCHED DRIVETRAIN ETC.

How do you figure? Looking at those two horsepower curves one can surmise that one car would trap lower. Trap speed doesn't win races

It take about 50 more horsepower for a roots forced induction car to keep up with a naturally aspirated car. A centri car would need even more. OF COURSE THEY ARE ALSO CAPABLE OF MAKING THAT ADDITIONAL 50-75 HOREPOWER THAT IS NEEDED, AND MORE.

We'll say, for sake of argument, that a roots blower takes 50hp to run. That being the case, you are correct it takes 50 more crank hp for a FI car to make the same power. The problem arises here: those are RWHP numbers. That 50hp necessary to drive the blower is already accounted for in the rwhp number. You might say that a blower is heavy, and that 50hp is needed to offset the additional weight, and you'd be right on two identical cars. However, we're not talknig about identical cars so its a moot point.

This is just a comparison to show each cars strengths relative to the other. A forced induction car excels with brute horsepower and a naturally aspirated car capitalizes on efficiency and a broad power curve.

This is generally untrue. High revving NA cars tend to make peak power at a much narrower rpm band because you have to spin the peepoo out of them to acheive the best cylinder fill. A roots/screw blown vehicle has positive pressure doing this at relatively low rpms meaning the torque curve is a frickin' table top (lots of area under the curve) over a much larger rpm range. Your winpep graph shows as much.

DOES THAT MAKE ONE BETTER THAN THE OTHER? NOOOOO. But a naturally aspirated car does deserve a little respect even though it's not capable of the maximum numbers attainable by forced induction.

I agree. One isn't better than the other. In the grand scheme of things: it really doesn't matter as long as you find your car fun to drive. However, your info is misleading at best.

Naz said it best, they're two different animals. Both awesome. Dont be so quick to get your forced induction feelings hurt.

The only FI vehicle I have at the moment is a superduty. I'm not getting butt hurt, I just have a problem with people posting erroneous info.

Heres the Terminator graph that was used. It represents a full bolt on, pullied car with max tune. No porting on the blower. No aftermarket blower. If you go to the Terminator section and do a search you can find several nearly identical graphs in the 440hp to 460hp range.

A "full bult on, pullied car with max tune" that only makes 440hp!? You've got to be kidding me, I've seen pulley only cars put down those kinds of numbers!

 

[olgreydog7]

olegrey, do u have an eletric waterpump? if so did it give you more hp?

Nope, pulleys. One of these days I will get one and and the ATI balancer to go with it though. I'll need the extra stability once I do get a forged block to spin her high.

its mine bitch!!!!!

In all honesty I really do not mean to be negative, Im just honest b/c I know it sucks when you invest your hard earned money into something and it does not turn out like you wanted.

Obviously Im a FI guy, and don't think NA is the most cost effective way to make power but I understand thats my opinion, BUT in the world we live in now people always want MORE so Im upfront with it. But I also understand not everybody wants what I want to. Obviousely yellow 01 tt cobras are the best, but for the "other" people they make other colors and mods :-D

Either way I really do hope best for the car, shoot you might pick up more power than you think with a fuel pump and setting up the cams properly. Then throw some gas at it and it will be a lil nasty devil!

Goodluck man! :beer:

This is a great post. And I pretty much agree with it all. Except the yellow tt vert part. Everyone knows that it's black coupes that really fly.

 

[olgreydog7]

1. Ok I will: your graph sucked, I think its disengenous, and even if its legit it doesn't prove anything.


2. Which is fine if a bit misleading. However, HP doesn't tell the whole story. Also, you picked a well thought out NA combo to compare against a pulley only terminator. Lastly, I've never seen a terminator power curve look as "stepped" as that.


3. We'll say, for sake of argument, that a roots blower takes 50hp to run. That being the case, you are correct it takes 50 more crank hp for a FI car to make the same power. The problem arises here: those are RWHP numbers. That 50hp necessary to drive the blower is already accounted for in the rwhp number. You might say that a blower is heavy, and that 50hp is needed to offset the additional weight, and you'd be right on two identical cars. However, we're not talknig about identical cars so its a moot point.



4. This is generally untrue. High revving NA cars tend to make peak power at a much narrower rpm band because you have to spin the peepoo out of them to acheive the best cylinder fill. A roots/screw blown vehicle has positive pressure doing this at relatively low rpms meaning the torque curve is a frickin' table top (lots of area under the curve) over a much larger rpm range. Your winpep graph shows as much.


5. A "full bult on, pullied car with max tune" that only makes 440hp!? You've got to be kidding me, I've seen pulley only cars put down those kinds of numbers!

1. How can a real graph based on a real car be disingenuous?
2. Zoom in on the dyno graph posted and it is a bit stepped. Plus, the exel graph is most likely done using 500 rpm increments and not continuous ones, so the excel graph will look a little more stepped than the dyno graph. But not much. Also, there was nothing all that fancy about the na car in the graph. It was a big bore with FR500 H/C/I and all the bolt ons. The heads and intake were ported by the owner. Basically, it was off the shelf parts. When I posted about it earlier, I was wrong. That was a different build that made ALOT more power.
3. He didn't say it took 50hp to run, he said you'll need about 50hp to run equal times in the 1/4. Roughly, all other things being equal.
4. Not 32 valve v-8s.
5. Yes. 03 Cobras pulled about 360 stock. You're saying that a pulley swap will net more than 80 hp? That I don't buy. Not in SAE numbers on a dynojet anyway.

 

[na svt]

A "full bult on, pullied car with max tune" that only makes 440hp!? You've got to be kidding me, I've seen pulley only cars put down those kinds of numbers!

I agree with po-po 5.0 that a "full bult on, pullied car with max tune" should make a lot more power. One of my friends cars makes 435 with only a lightning pulley and a K&N. No other mods at all. I'm not familiar with 03/04s enough to know what a full bolt on, pullied car should make but that does seem a bit low.


Don't ya love how the FI-n/a argument brings out the best in people:banana:

 

[olgreydog7]

I think he misquoted, it's supposed to be 460, not 440. Check the graph.

 

[po-po 5.0]

1. How can a real graph based on a real car be disingenuous?

Its disingenious because torque is a HUGE factor. Not to mention that lining the hp peaks up like that doesn't mean anything in the real world.

2. Zoom in on the dyno graph posted and it is a bit stepped. Plus, the exel graph is most likely done using 500 rpm increments and not continuous ones, so the excel graph will look a little more stepped than the dyno graph. But not much. Also, there was nothing all that fancy about the na car in the graph. It was a big bore with FR500 H/C/I and all the bolt ons. The heads and intake were ported by the owner. Basically, it was off the shelf parts. When I posted about it earlier, I was wrong. That was a different build that made ALOT more power.

Compared to a terminator with just a pulley something with a well thought out package of matched H/C/I is a lot fancier.

3. He didn't say it took 50hp to run, he said you'll need about 50hp to run equal times in the 1/4. Roughly, all other things being equal.

Which I don't believe at all. The reason I said what I did was because the only thing that made sense was that he was talking about the power to drive the blower.

4. Not 32 valve v-8s.

Wait.....are you trying to tell me that 4v fords AREN'T peaky? The cars that you need 4.56s to drag race with!? Come on..... One look at the torque curve of the terminator he posted shows what I'm talking about. That torque curve is as flat as a tabletop. You don't see that on an NA car.

5. Yes. 03 Cobras pulled about 360 stock. You're saying that a pulley swap will net more than 80 hp? That I don't buy. Not in SAE numbers on a dynojet anyway.

There's a guy here in town whos DD is a stock pullied termi. He has a k&n, a midpipe, and a catback. After a tune he put down 440/427.

 

[olgreydog7]

1. Its disingenious because torque is a HUGE factor. Not to mention that lining the hp peaks up like that doesn't mean anything in the real world.

2. Compared to a terminator with just a pulley something with a well thought out package of matched H/C/I is a lot fancier.

3. Wait.....are you trying to tell me that 4v fords AREN'T peaky? The cars that you need 4.56s to drag race with!? Come on..... One look at the torque curve of the terminator he posted shows what I'm talking about. That torque curve is as flat as a tabletop. You don't see that on an NA car.


4.There's a guy here in town whos DD is a stock pullied termi. He has a k&n, a midpipe, and a catback. After a tune he put down 440/427.

1. You know that hp is calculated from torque right? If I knew how to post an excel graph, I could recreate the curve for you. You are 100% correct that hp isn't everything. Hell, I bet if we swapped cars, Naz would kick my ass in a race, and he's run 10's all motor on the old setup. Driver mod is huge. So is the na car always going to win? No, but it should all things being equal. Think of it this way, you said you drive a super duty right? How much torque does that make? Ever race it? I bet it's not fast. True wieght is a huge factor, but so is where it make torque. I bet it leaks somewhere around 2000 rpm. Great for towing, bad for racing. The na car makes power higher in the band and should win because of it.

2. I'll give you that Ford did a good job matching parts. But it wasn't a overly complicated combo. It was off the shelf parts with some porting.

3. Go back to post #1 and look at my torque curve. Even with the loss of fuel pressure and maybe a cam timing issue, it's a pretty broad curve. Not table top flat, but I wouldn't call it peaky either. The 4.56s are good cause you can rev forever. It's funny cause when I talk to guys that aren't into late models, they think having 300 ft-lbs at the wheels is alot. Maybe our definitions of peaky are different. I consider peaky to have a narrow band of power where the curve rises steep and drops of steep. When there is a continuous rise to the redline, I don't call that peaky. I call that a good motor.

4. Well, that guy isn't JUST a pulley, nor is he making 460 rwhp is he? Basically he is missing headers to be a complete bolt on car. So I fail to see your point. What else is there? I guess you might get 20 rwhp from longtubes and a proper CAI. I dunno though.

 

[droptopsnake01]

A n/a car making 450hp WILL outrun a FI car making 450hp.

So whats the argument?