Doing a 358ci N/A build ADVICE PLEASE

[Ironhand]

Olgrey, I also have a 5.3 BB Stroker so I know what you mean there. I have heard a lot of shit from my friends with that build. Most felt it wasn't worth-wile, but it spit out impressive numbers and tore apart most of the cars it ran into. I have to say, I really LOVE the 4.6 at this displacement. I ran 12:1 compression on that engine as well.

Perhaps I misrepresented how I felt... I am not looking for people to tout my horn, but instead for true feedback with actual life experience. I feel that a lot of the people on here are simply criticizing my build without a definite insight on what genuinely works. I would bet a lot of money, only 1 or 2 people on this thread have thought about building a 360ci 4V let alone actually done it. I understand that putting a crap intake on the best heads, etc etc will kill the combo. However, I didn't appreciate people saying rude things like "What a waste". A waste? Really now? I will admit it sounds like jealousy to me.

As far as the intake is concerned...well... this engine is going to make wild N/A power. That is for certain. However, once it's broken in and I have some spare cash lying around, I would be willing to test other intake choices on it and see what happens. For now though, I feel it's a very thought out combo and will see a good amount of torque too. We'll see though, right? I am NOT trying to squeeze every last drop of power out of the engine. I am looking to make power greater than a 5.4, by some margin but also retain drive-ability and torque.

Tmhutch, the intake was made by a member of svtp. I don't know his willingness to share his secrets, however, a lot of work went into the intake. WHILE A 5.4 SULLIVAN WOULD PERHAPS BE AN EVEN BETTER CHOICE, I don't know if it's the RIGHT FIT for ME. Just for giggles I had my engine builder test the intake out and really take a look at what's been done to it. They were equally impressed and believe it will flow the 360ci just fine. :beer: Now of course only time will tell when the car is finally put on the rollers, but wouldn't it be nice to have another intake choice verses me just using a sullivan or Cobra r? I think us 4V guys could use some choices in this department. The poor B head guys don't really even have a choice. I say, let's see what happens. The engine is going to make sick power regardless.

Since Im the one that said,"What a waste." You have to be kidding me right?
Jealousy? That has to be that Bronx attitude or something.

Lets break this down.

Your building a 360 cid 5.4. Cool. Nothing new there. Your dumping tons of money into sleeving the block, custom pistons, GT heads, valvetrain, and for what? I sure as hell hope that Todd(NA SVT) or someone did do wonders on an intake for you so that it actually makes power or all those extra cubes and valvetrain work wont be worth much.

Im building my second 5.4 because of many hard lessons learned. The 5.4 isnt the end all be all but its close. There is no bolt on anything that is perfect for the 5.4 and SN-95 chassis, stuff has to be moved or taller hood etc.

Why does everyone think the sullivan is that good? Is is because it was the only aftermarket intake for a modular? Or is it due to shear stupidity? Was the distribution problem fixed on Chris Scotts car or was it just bolted on as is? Or did you know the sullivan has a distribution problem?

According to you Im just jealous. :lol: As a side note, 360 is chump change, I have a 400+cid modular shortblock in my garage. :bash:

 

[na svt]

Why does everyone think the sullivan is that good? Is is because it was the only aftermarket intake for a modular? Or is it due to shear stupidity? Was the distribution problem fixed on Chris Scotts car or was it just bolted on as is? Or did you know the sullivan has a distribution problem?

According to you Im just jealous. :lol: As a side note, 360 is chump change, I have a 400+cid modular shortblock in my garage. :bash:

The Sullivan is a great intake (only direct bolt-on intake) and will make more power than any other intake manifold from 6000 and up. In untouched for, it has been on engines making well oever 500rwhp, one was modded for GT heads was on a combo making over 600rwhp thru an automatic.

A stock 4.6 sullivan outperforms an FR500 intake depite it's percieved distribution problems (been there and done the testing on an 9000rpm engine). As far as Chris Scott's combos is concerned, since the intake sits on stock longblock he'll have no problems.

 

[RPM4DAZ]

Get the grind numbers off the cams and call Crower. They can give you the specs on the cams. That is important info... This a normally aspirated build only right? In my opinion headers are a big demand for cams that big ( if they are "stage 3" ). The more running duration the engine has the more beneficial a set of headers are. They can have big increases in the lower to middle rpm levels. I would be looking into 1 3/4" tube myself. Into a 3" x/h pipe and into a 2 1/2" ( maybe 3" ) cat back. The tubing sizes are more important the closer they are to the engine.

 

[olgreydog7]

If you think the Sully would be better, why don't you run it? It is very streetable on my build. I'm not gonna tow anyone with the torque I make, but it is enough to move the car and spin the tires at will. The car does not like to chug around below 2000 rpm unless it is on the highway. Intake choices are limited. Some of this is due to the stock 4.6 intake not being a real resitriction until you start making well beyond bolt on power. The 5.4 was never offered in a car, in the US anyway, and the truck community just doesn't need an intake either. As for the 2v and 3v, there was just alot more of them made. You don't hear alot from guys with experience, cause there really aren't that many. Most of the guys who do have it are racers or engine builders who either don't want to give away their secrets, or they just avoid the forums for the most part.

 

[xXSVTmonsterXx]

Since Im the one that said,"What a waste." You have to be kidding me right?
Jealousy? That has to be that Bronx attitude or something.

Lets break this down.

Your building a 360 cid 5.4. Cool. Nothing new there. Your dumping tons of money into sleeving the block, custom pistons, GT heads, valvetrain, and for what? I sure as hell hope that Todd(NA SVT) or someone did do wonders on an intake for you so that it actually makes power or all those extra cubes and valvetrain work wont be worth much.

Im building my second 5.4 because of many hard lessons learned. The 5.4 isnt the end all be all but its close. There is no bolt on anything that is perfect for the 5.4 and SN-95 chassis, stuff has to be moved or taller hood etc.

Why does everyone think the sullivan is that good? Is is because it was the only aftermarket intake for a modular? Or is it due to shear stupidity? Was the distribution problem fixed on Chris Scotts car or was it just bolted on as is? Or did you know the sullivan has a distribution problem?

According to you Im just jealous. :lol: As a side note, 360 is chump change, I have a 400+cid modular shortblock in my garage. :bash:

Hmmm. Actually, I wasn't referring to you specifically and didn't even bother to take note that you were the person who said that. However, yeah... MR. 400 CUBIC INCH, sure sounds like it now. I was well aware that 360ci was chump change long before you said there's a 400ci modular in your garage, you know why? Because of 429's and 500+ci engines.

"Im building my second 5.4 because of many hard lessons learned. The 5.4 isnt the end all be all but its close. There is no bolt on anything that is perfect for the 5.4 and SN-95 chassis, stuff has to be moved or taller hood etc."

Coincidentally, you just proved that you're not the kind of person I should be taking notes from. You build custom K members, but still believe that things need to be moved? Like what? Did you not research this swap? You of all people should know that you CAN get a 5.4 swap to work without moving a thing OR a taller hood. The secret? And sadly it's not a special k member... A 6mm spacer between the K member and body, a 6mm lower engine mount. Now where did I find that out? COBRA R. And what of the steering shaft? IT WILL WORK JUST FINE. Actually a buddy tried out a 12mm K spacer between the K and body and the stock steering shaft worked fine. (He has coil overs so I can't speak for a stock spring setup). Now I know you get BLOWERS to fit under the factory hood with YOUR k member, so that might just be an accomplishment in itself.

I would think that because you're looking to make a business out of these swaps you would ENCOURAGE people to do them. I've heard you've done some spectacular things with 03/04 Cobras and 5.4 swaps. I think that's awesome.

Lets get the facts straight so we DON'T SCARE all the guys looking to do this away! I WANT people to HAVE OPTIONS with MODULAR FORD ENGINES.

A lot of guys think you need special parts and a ton of fabrication to make a 5.4 swap work, and THAT'S WRONG! :rockon:

 

[Ironhand]

Hmmm. Actually, I wasn't referring to you specifically and didn't even bother to take note that you were the person who said that. However, yeah... MR. 400 CUBIC INCH, sure sounds like it now. I was well aware that 360ci was chump change long before you said there's a 400ci modular in your garage, you know why? Because of 429's and 500+ci engines.

"Im building my second 5.4 because of many hard lessons learned. The 5.4 isnt the end all be all but its close. There is no bolt on anything that is perfect for the 5.4 and SN-95 chassis, stuff has to be moved or taller hood etc."

Coincidentally, you just proved that you're not the kind of person I should be taking notes from. You build custom K members, but still believe that things need to be moved? Like what? Did you not research this swap? You of all people should know that you CAN get a 5.4 swap to work without moving a thing OR a taller hood. The secret? And sadly it's not a special k member... A 6mm spacer between the K member and body, a 6mm lower engine mount. Now where did I find that out? COBRA R. And what of the steering shaft? IT WILL WORK JUST FINE. Actually a buddy tried out a 12mm K spacer between the K and body and the stock steering shaft worked fine. (He has coil overs so I can't speak for a stock spring setup). Now I know you get BLOWERS to fit under the factory hood with YOUR k member, so that might just be an accomplishment in itself.

I would think that because you're looking to make a business out of these swaps you would ENCOURAGE people to do them. I've heard you've done some spectacular things with 03/04 Cobras and 5.4 swaps. I think that's awesome.

Lets get the facts straight so we DON'T SCARE all the guys looking to do this away! I WANT people to HAVE OPTIONS with MODULAR FORD ENGINES.

A lot of guys think you need special parts and a ton of fabrication to make a 5.4 swap work, and THAT'S WRONG! :rockon:

Not looking to make a business out of K members. And the K member is what I meant by moving stuff around. The 12mm Cobra R stuff has been long known and is how I think Birdman(Steve) gets his to bolt in.

Also, my K member is more extreme in terms of how much drop you can get out of it because of the 5.4 and 3.4 Crusher combo that was on top. You can only drop the motor so far before it runs the oil pan into the factory K member. The new design is even better then the one that is in my car as well. I dont believe in K member spacers and refuse to use them. I just want the motor to be dropped and thats it. That is why the stock steering shaft works with what you have because its only 6mm further away then its stock location. Mine required the steering shaft because the motor and steering rack sits lower causing the stock shaft to be short by a few MMs. Also, I can run massive headers with my setup. I can grab ANY set of off the shelf longtubes for an 03-04 Cobra and they will bolt right up without any further modification.

You dont need to take notes from me, you can just read the book I wrote on it. oke:

Do I know a whole lot about cams? Nope, not really. I ask NA SVT if I need help with that, Which I do and have done.

Do I know how to put a 5.4 DOHC with a full 03-04 Cobra setup and make it look factory and clear the stock hood when its done? Yup, done it already.

I will stop the bickering now. Post pics when its together and running. As soon as the snow is clear my car will be up and running with stronger internals this time and better heads.

 

[xXSVTmonsterXx]

Not looking to make a business out of K members. And the K member is what I meant by moving stuff around. The 12mm Cobra R stuff has been long known and is how I think Birdman(Steve) gets his to bolt in.

Also, my K member is more extreme in terms of how much drop you can get out of it because of the 5.4 and 3.4 Crusher combo that was on top. You can only drop the motor so far before it runs the oil pan into the factory K member. The new design is even better then the one that is in my car as well. I dont believe in K member spacers and refuse to use them. I just want the motor to be dropped and thats it. That is why the stock steering shaft works with what you have because its only 6mm further away then its stock location. Mine required the steering shaft because the motor and steering rack sits lower causing the stock shaft to be short by a few MMs. Also, I can run massive headers with my setup. I can grab ANY set of off the shelf longtubes for an 03-04 Cobra and they will bolt right up without any further modification.

You dont need to take notes from me, you can just read the book I wrote on it. oke:

Do I know a whole lot about cams? Nope, not really. I ask NA SVT if I need help with that, Which I do and have done.

Do I know how to put a 5.4 DOHC with a full 03-04 Cobra setup and make it look factory and clear the stock hood when its done? Yup, done it already.

I will stop the bickering now. Post pics when its together and running. As soon as the snow is clear my car will be up and running with stronger internals this time and better heads.

:beer:
Now this is a good post.

 

[tonewyork89]

I feel like in the end it's basically the same amount of work, for us n/a guys at least to just use spacers, since either way we're dropping out the k member, in my opinion

 

[olgreydog7]

I feel like in the end it's basically the same amount of work, for us n/a guys at least to just use spacers, since either way we're dropping out the k member, in my opinion

I've pulled and installed my motor 3 times and I do not drop the k. I can get it in by myself in half an hour with the headers bolted up.

 

[tonewyork89]

I've pulled and installed my motor 3 times and I do not drop the k. I can get it in by myself in half an hour with the headers bolted up.

Since we're not using the stock K member, it's the same amount of work, or possibly less, to just get the engine in and out with the k members

 

[IUP99snake]

There is an article in a magazine called engine masters a couple years ago I saw on the newsstand where they built the exact type of engine that you're looking for. However since it was a couple years ago they didn't have the technology that we have today to build a more reliable 5.8 L engine. I wish I could just find that article and pull it off so you could see it but I'm not sure if they publish back issues. You might have to do some additional digging to be able to find it.

From what I remember it was based on the 5.4 aluminum supercar block that was retrofitted to be a wet sump oiling system and the cylinders were sleeved out to a 3.7 inch bore. Lots of attention was paid to the oiling system where they smoothed out and large many of the oil passages to reduce windage and pumping losses and improve overall oiling flow throughout the engine.

The basic set up of the engine was that it had at least 11.5 to 1 compression, maybe even 12 to 1 compression. It used ported GT500 heads and stock FGT cams if I remember correctly. If they didn't use the GT supercar cans, they must've used a confidential cam grind otherwise I would have known more about the specs. They used an OO cobra R lower intake with a custom sheet metal upper intake.

That was the basic combination and it made 550 hp naturally aspirated on an engine dyno running limited accessories on the front. It made almost the same amount in torque.

With the advances in technology in just the past couple years, I don't see any reason why you shouldn't be able to surpass that HP amount with the parts that are currently available.

If you can get your hands on a 5.8 block, whether it be sleeve or a new 2013 GT 500 block, I recommend that you go with this high of the compression ratio as possible without detonation becoming a problem with the fuel that you plan on using. This could be anywhere from 11.5:1, perhaps 12 to 1 or even 12.5 to 1 if you're using E85. Since is an NA bill you want to use a somewhat light reciprocating assembly. Don't get me wrong, you'll need strong Pistons and rods but you won't need the beef used rods that you can possibly get for the most insane supercharger application. Also, a set of fully ported GT supercar heads might have a big advantage over the GT 500 heads that were used in this dyno test. You'll also have to focus on the right intake, which will be the centerpiece of the engine build. Unfortunately not too many people make quality intakes for a naturally aspirated 5.4 based DOHC
engine. try your best to find the 2000 Cobra R lower intake at the bare minimum you can fabricate in upper intake Plenum which is basically a cover. You're going throw the trouble of building this engine you can also go through the trouble of finding a rare 2000 Cobra R lower intake. Or you could use the Australian boss intake. Or certain circumstances, I've seen the 99 – 01 coper intake ported and widened to fit the 5.4 but in absolutely no circumstances should you use the adapter plates. You could also have a custom spider sheet metal intake fabricated that would kill your bottom end torque though because the runners would probably be very short. And last but not least, I think Edelbrock might even make a cast aluminum performer rpm intake for the 4.6 and 5.4 two valve and four valve motors. It looks like a big carburetor intake with provisions for fuel injectors. You would just get a 90° adapter elbow so you can fit your large oval throttle body in front or either side of the engine. But even in this case, it has extremely short runners and would kill your bottom and power production.

I want to see you go through with this. Post up tons of pictures and ideas so we can give you feedback on how to build the best large displacement naturally aspirated Big bore modular engine.

When it comes time for me to replace the short block in my car, it will be replaced with a 5.8 based short block. The advantages are just so great now especially with the architecture being the same as mine 99 cobra that I can't pass up the huge displacement increase even if I do have to move a few things around with the typical 4.6 to 5.4 swap. I could just as easily replace mine for valve 4.6 and my name
Cobra with a coyote motor but that would kind of defeat the purpose of it being a cobra in the first place. it would just be Cobra with the coyote motor, which would be no different than a six cylinder with a coyote motor swap and what fun is that? but if I were to replace the short block or even the Longblock from a 5.8 motor, my 99 cobra would retain the same engine architecture that it originally came with except for swapping for the larger deck block. But the overall head design intake design electronics package and styling is pretty much the same I would just have a much larger displacement.

Sorry for the long post everyone, but I just wanted to make sure that I got my point across and that I encouraged this person to go ahead and build the motor that he wants.

 

[CCM302]

I'm doing pretty much the same build. I'm subscribing because it looks like you'll beat me to the finish. I'm interested to see what kind of numbers I could possibly make. I have the 5.4 navi block, FGT heads, and I was lucky enough to get the '00R intake with a fabbed upper.

I was planning on the Darton MIDs, then I was told that I didn't really need them and that just sleeving each cylinder would be enough, then I was told I did need them. Basically, about 50 different people have told me 50 different things. I am planning on running the compression up to 12:1 on 93 pump gas. I do worry about the detonation since I will be in the incredible heat of the south during the summers. I like the MMR 351R but I'm not sure if it's necessary. It may be. I don't know. If I can get away with just sleeving the individual cylinders, then so be it. But, I've already gotten all of the other ridiculous parts, so what's another $3200, right?

So, hurry up so I can see what kind of numbers I am going to make. Kidding. Please take your time and have it done right the first time so you don't end up doing it twice. But, still hurry up. ;-)

 

[birdman941]

There is an article in a magazine called engine masters a couple years ago I saw on the newsstand where they built the exact type of engine that you're looking for. However since it was a couple years ago they didn't have the technology that we have today to build a more reliable 5.8 L engine. I wish I could just find that article and pull it off so you could see it but I'm not sure if they publish back issues. You might have to do some additional digging to be able to find it.

From what I remember it was based on the 5.4 aluminum supercar block that was retrofitted to be a wet sump oiling system and the cylinders were sleeved out to a 3.7 inch bore. Lots of attention was paid to the oiling system where they smoothed out and large many of the oil passages to reduce windage and pumping losses and improve overall oiling flow throughout the engine.

The basic set up of the engine was that it had at least 11.5 to 1 compression, maybe even 12 to 1 compression. It used ported GT500 heads and stock FGT cams if I remember correctly. If they didn't use the GT supercar cans, they must've used a confidential cam grind otherwise I would have known more about the specs. They used an OO cobra R lower intake with a custom sheet metal upper intake.

That was the basic combination and it made 550 hp naturally aspirated on an engine dyno running limited accessories on the front. It made almost the same amount in torque.

With the advances in technology in just the past couple years, I don't see any reason why you shouldn't be able to surpass that HP amount with the parts that are currently available.

If you can get your hands on a 5.8 block, whether it be sleeve or a new 2013 GT 500 block, I recommend that you go with this high of the compression ratio as possible without detonation becoming a problem with the fuel that you plan on using. This could be anywhere from 11.5:1, perhaps 12 to 1 or even 12.5 to 1 if you're using E85. Since is an NA bill you want to use a somewhat light reciprocating assembly. Don't get me wrong, you'll need strong Pistons and rods but you won't need the beef used rods that you can possibly get for the most insane supercharger application. Also, a set of fully ported GT supercar heads might have a big advantage over the GT 500 heads that were used in this dyno test. You'll also have to focus on the right intake, which will be the centerpiece of the engine build. Unfortunately not too many people make quality intakes for a naturally aspirated 5.4 based DOHC
engine. try your best to find the 2000 Cobra R lower intake at the bare minimum you can fabricate in upper intake Plenum which is basically a cover. You're going throw the trouble of building this engine you can also go through the trouble of finding a rare 2000 Cobra R lower intake. Or you could use the Australian boss intake. Or certain circumstances, I've seen the 99 – 01 coper intake ported and widened to fit the 5.4 but in absolutely no circumstances should you use the adapter plates. You could also have a custom spider sheet metal intake fabricated that would kill your bottom end torque though because the runners would probably be very short. And last but not least, I think Edelbrock might even make a cast aluminum performer rpm intake for the 4.6 and 5.4 two valve and four valve motors. It looks like a big carburetor intake with provisions for fuel injectors. You would just get a 90° adapter elbow so you can fit your large oval throttle body in front or either side of the engine. But even in this case, it has extremely short runners and would kill your bottom and power production.

I want to see you go through with this. Post up tons of pictures and ideas so we can give you feedback on how to build the best large displacement naturally aspirated Big bore modular engine.

When it comes time for me to replace the short block in my car, it will be replaced with a 5.8 based short block. The advantages are just so great now especially with the architecture being the same as mine 99 cobra that I can't pass up the huge displacement increase even if I do have to move a few things around with the typical 4.6 to 5.4 swap. I could just as easily replace mine for valve 4.6 and my name
Cobra with a coyote motor but that would kind of defeat the purpose of it being a cobra in the first place. it would just be Cobra with the coyote motor, which would be no different than a six cylinder with a coyote motor swap and what fun is that? but if I were to replace the short block or even the Longblock from a 5.8 motor, my 99 cobra would retain the same engine architecture that it originally came with except for swapping for the larger deck block. But the overall head design intake design electronics package and styling is pretty much the same I would just have a much larger displacement.

Sorry for the long post everyone, but I just wanted to make sure that I got my point across and that I encouraged this person to go ahead and build the motor that he wants.

I would love to have a 2013 Shelby block.
it will eventually make it to FRPP.

 

[CCM302]

Btw, any updates?