Detrimental Effects of High Boost (Upper/Lower Combo) on the Factory Eaton.

[ITSTOCK]

Originally posted by Dominick32
Ok. So now you are trying to win this argument with a 2.80 upper and 6# lower is HUGE. and generates that much more heat than my upper/lower combo. I might as well call you "Flip Flop" You already stated in your original thread that:


Man, you switch sides of the argument in a heartbeat. You realize you are wrong and try to turn it around on me again.


Asshole, re read the entire post again and check my damn signature.

I cant stress how much you flip flop back and forth:

:bash:

If you are still learning about the subject dont open your mouth in the first place.

Gotta love Mr. "Flip Flop"

Please re read Juiced46's statement:
----------------------------------
You are saying that in the winter your engine doesnt create heat in the engine compartment and sucked into the motor. Have you ever touched your blower after a few WOT blasts, its fuggin HOT. All that heat is going into your motor. Heat is VERY BAD and will destroy a motor even if the tune is good. Heat is one of the main reasons why a motor blows. WTF do u think your car being lean means? Lean means hot.

Also your car may have been consistent 11.6s going back to back to back runs, BUT you are consistently heat soaked. If you let the car cool, you would have ran faster then that.

You are spinning the blower faster, its going to create more heat, period.
------------------------------------------


Once again, you show your stupidity and steer away from a professional discussion. Please just leave this thread as your insight has been greatly appreciated.

Dom

You might want to actually READ EVERYTHING I TYPED instead of just taking excerpts!

You must not have the best reading comprehension. You break paragraphs up and don't explain anything, and don't see the full picture. How much clearer can it get?????

UPPER/LOWER COMBO'S WILL NOT EFFECT TIMES IN back to back 1/4 MILE RUNS! (unless it's 115 degrees out, in which case a stock pullied car will have the same things happen!)

READ WHAT IS TYPED! NOT JUST LITTLE PHRASES!:thumbsup:

 

[ITSTOCK]

Originally posted by Dominick32
Ok. So now you are trying to win this argument with a 2.80 upper and 6# lower is HUGE. and generates that much more heat than my upper/lower combo. I might as well call you "Flip Flop" You already stated in your original thread that:


Man, you switch sides of the argument in a heartbeat. You realize you are wrong and try to turn it around on me again.


Asshole, re read the entire post again and check my damn signature.

I cant stress how much you flip flop back and forth:

:bash:

If you are still learning about the subject dont open your mouth in the first place.

Gotta love Mr. "Flip Flop"

Please re read Juiced46's statement:
----------------------------------
You are saying that in the winter your engine doesnt create heat in the engine compartment and sucked into the motor. Have you ever touched your blower after a few WOT blasts, its fuggin HOT. All that heat is going into your motor. Heat is VERY BAD and will destroy a motor even if the tune is good. Heat is one of the main reasons why a motor blows. WTF do u think your car being lean means? Lean means hot.

Also your car may have been consistent 11.6s going back to back to back runs, BUT you are consistently heat soaked. If you let the car cool, you would have ran faster then that.

You are spinning the blower faster, its going to create more heat, period.
------------------------------------------


Once again, you show your stupidity and steer away from a professional discussion. Please just leave this thread as your insight has been greatly appreciated.

Dom

You might want to actually READ EVERYTHING I TYPED instead of just taking excerpts!

You must not have the best reading comprehension. You break paragraphs up and don't explain anything, and don't see the full picture. How much clearer can it get?????

UPPER/LOWER COMBO'S WILL NOT EFFECT TIMES IN back to back 1/4 MILE RUNS! (unless it's 115 degrees out, in which case a stock pullied car will have the same things happen!)

READ WHAT IS TYPED! NOT JUST LITTLE PHRASES!:thumbsup:

I'll STICK TO RACING, YOU stick to dyno's :loser:

 

[Juiced46]

Originally posted by ITSTOCK


Juiced46, with that pulley combo, it's more understandable it failed. That's pretty extreme!

When a car is LEAN, it means that is not getting proper fuel, or the air is drastically greater than the fuel going into the motor. I may have missed where heat factors into the equation, but again, I am open to learn. About the winter air, YES IT IS COOLER. IT IS NOT ONLY COOLER, BUT IT IS DENSER!

Ok lesson 101 for you. have you ever seen a blown piston from a lean condition. Do you know whats going on in there. If you have ever seen a plug from a cylinder that was running lean it would be very white and/or even have red spots on the porcelain. This means its hot. What do you think is going in there when you are LEANING it out. Its getting hot. For instance the purpose of an EGT gauge is to monitor exhaust gas temps. The leaner it gets the hotter its going to read. All that heat generated inside of the motor is BAD. When you go lean your cylinder temps shoot way up. It may not hurt the motor initially. But if its done repeatedly you are going to smoke that piston, or your rings in a heartbeat. It will wear at your internals and beat the living shit out of them.

Say you hop on the highway and do 4 1/4 blasts in a row. Even if your tune is perfect i bet that would do some serious damage to your internals. Especially on the pistons in the 03 Cobras. They dont like heat like that.

Like posted above by blownstang01 hot lapping his car he broke it.

Quoted from NGKs website, because what im stating is a FACT not an ASSumption. I do know what im talking about and i have alot of experience in this field. Im not the person that goes and reads stuff on the internet and assumes i know what im talking about. I have alot of experience with this through hands on personal experience.

But just to prove my statement, a quick search backs it up

"Air/Fuel Mixtures seriously affect engine performance and spark plug operating temperatures.

Rich air/fuel mixtures cause tip temperature to drop, causing fouling and poor driveability
Lean air/fuel mixtures cause plug tip and cylinder temperature to increase, resulting in pre-ignition, detonation, and possibly serious spark plug and engine damage
It is important to read spark plugs many times during the tuning process to achieve the optimum air/ fuel mixture "

Thank you class is dismissed

 

[Juiced46]

Originally posted by ITSTOCK
You might want to actually READ EVERYTHING I TYPED instead of just taking excerpts!

You must not have the best reading comprehension. You break paragraphs up and don't explain anything, and don't see the full picture. How much clearer can it get?????

UPPER/LOWER COMBO'S WILL NOT EFFECT TIMES IN back to back 1/4 MILE RUNS! (unless it's 115 degrees out, in which case a stock pullied car will have the same things happen!)

READ WHAT IS TYPED! NOT JUST LITTLE PHRASES!:thumbsup:

I will put money on that you will trap lower with and upper/lower combo @ the track running it heatsoaked. Sambandit is a prime example.

 

[1time]

wow!!

 

[ITSTOCK]

Originally posted by Juiced46
Ok lesson 101 for you. have you ever seen a blown piston from a lean condition. Do you know whats going on in there. If you have ever seen a plug from a cylinder that was running lean it would be very white and/or even have red spots on the porcelain. This means its hot. What do you think is going in there when you are LEANING it out. Its getting hot. For instance the purpose of an EGT gauge is to monitor exhaust gas temps. The leaner it gets the hotter its going to read. All that heat generated inside of the motor is BAD. When you go lean your cylinder temps shoot way up. It may not hurt the motor initially. But if its done repeatedly you are going to smoke that piston, or your rings in a heartbeat. It will wear at your internals and beat the living shit out of them.

Say you hop on the highway and do 4 1/4 blasts in a row. Even if your tune is perfect i bet that would do some serious damage to your internals. Especially on the pistons in the 03 Cobras. They dont like heat like that.

Like posted above by blownstang01 hot lapping his car he broke it.

Quoted from NGKs website, because what im stating is a FACT not an ASSumption. I do know what im talking about and i have alot of experience in this field. Im not the person that goes and reads stuff on the internet and assumes i know what im talking about. I have alot of experience with this through hands on personal experience.

But just to prove my statement, a quick search backs it up

"Air/Fuel Mixtures seriously affect engine performance and spark plug operating temperatures.

Rich air/fuel mixtures cause tip temperature to drop, causing fouling and poor driveability
Lean air/fuel mixtures cause plug tip and cylinder temperature to increase, resulting in pre-ignition, detonation, and possibly serious spark plug and engine damage
It is important to read spark plugs many times during the tuning process to achieve the optimum air/ fuel mixture "

Thank you class is dismissed

The heat you are describing in the motor is due to the air/fuel though, NOT the IAT temps. It is NOT A CAUSE OF HEAT FROM THE BLOWER, IT IS DUE TO AIR/FUEL, ALONG WITH DIFFERENT VARIABLES THAT CHANGE HEAT IN A MOTOR.

I already posted, with a 2.76 and 2# lower, I DID NOT GET HEATSOAK. I am not just making this up. I will be going to the track, and if at all possible, I will try to hot lap. I wilL PUT MONEY that it does NOT effect it, AS I HAVE ALREADY DONE SO, WITH NO HEATSOAK.

 

[Dominick32]

Ok.
This thread has gone far enough.
I now feel obligated to explain to everyone why this thread was started. I really did not want to release this information to the public but here goes:

On the way home from the shop after the 4#lower install and tune my blower started to make an extremely loud screetching noise. I drove home normally and started it up the next day. At idle it immediately istarted making a loud mettalic clanking and rubbing. I put my hand on the blower casing and it was shaking and vibrating. (Almost felt like something was rubbing together inside) It turns out that heat and overspinning caused pre-mature failure of my ported eaton.

Yes, you guys heard me correctly. My blower took a complete shit.
I need to talk to Gene Fine @ Apten to discuss whats going on with the situation but it was definitely a combo of heat and over-spin. The blower did not seize up up completely, it still rotates and will allow me to get to the shop on my own power. It makes a small amount of boost at low rpms and as far as im concerned there is no damage to the intercooler...hopefully.

There is alot of options I am considering right now but besides that I am really: :xpl:

Dom

 

[Buster]

Originally posted by RGrossman
ITSTOCK does know alot about cars. Also, not all us Horsham guys are bad!

The upper and lower generates more heat. That cannot be argued. I don't feel the average car would ever be damaged by the heat unless the car is torn to pieces daily as Dom said. Headers on these cars I thought were very beneficial due to removing more heat and lowering the cylinder pressure.

No performance mod that produces more power lowers cylinder pressure, cylinder pressure is what drives your pistons up and down. Normally adding headers will decrese back pressure which will allow more exhaust to released and more air to replace this exhaust in the cylinder, which will create more cylinder pressure.

As far as heat, the reason it's so dangerous is because it causes hot spots inside the cylinder which can cause the fuel to self ignite causing spontaneous combustion (meaning your ignition system is not controlling spark anymore) and astronomical cylinder pressures. Spontaneous combustion will destroy your rings and crack your pistons right before you melt a hole in a pistons or melt a plug.

This is the main reason I run race gas, race gas has a higher resistance to self ignition which goes along ways when your producing heat with high boost. Put race gas or WI in your car and race it around the track with 18 psi all day long. Just ask rally racers or circle track racer, its octane or water injection.

Mark L

 

[BLWN03]

ITSTOCK,,you are very misinformed....Or very new to the Drag racing and/or car hobby...SAMBANDIT proved heatsoak is VERY evident with upper/lower combos whether its a 3.10 upper and 2lb lower or 2.76 and 6lb lower...heatsoak is there whether you like to believe it or not. I am going to a upper lower combo but i have enough expierience and information to make a WISE descision on what amount of boost i decide to run the car around with. Track you can push the car with race gas...street where a mojority of my car spends its time i will run NO MORE tha a 2.93 upper and 4lb lower during the winter on the street/track will be the 2.76/4lb combo with race gas....summer time will be back to a 15psi combo, im not going to chance grenading my blower or motor for a dyno number...i want the car to last for a while.

 

[Chonger]

Originally posted by Dominick32
Ok.
This thread has gone far enough.
I now feel obligated to explain to everyone why this thread was started. I really did not want to release this information to the public but here goes:

On the way home from the shop after the 4#lower install and tune my blower started to make an extremely loud screetching noise. I drove home normally and started it up the next day. At idle it immediately istarted making a loud mettalic clanking and rubbing. I put my hand on the blower casing and it was shaking and vibrating. (Almost felt like something was rubbing together inside) It turns out that heat and overspinning caused pre-mature failure of my ported eaton.

Yes, you guys heard me correctly. My blower took a complete shit.
I need to talk to Gene Fine @ Apten to discuss whats going on with the situation but it was definitely a combo of heat and over-spin. The blower did not seize up up completely, it still rotates and will allow me to get to the shop on my own power. It makes a small amount of boost at low rpms and as far as im concerned there is no damage to the intercooler...hopefully.

There is alot of options I am considering right now but besides that I am really: :xpl:

Dom

I'll tell you what. If there was ever a time to self justify a whipple now would be the time. If this happened to me I would find some way to justify dropping some serious coin and getting twin screwed. I thought about going to an upper/lower combo on the eaton but you just made my decision for me. I'd say the best combo for an eaton (power, reliability, durability) is still a single upper 2.93/2.80 set up.

The whipple is calling your name!!! :rockon:

 

[Juiced46]

Originally posted by ITSTOCK
The heat you are describing in the motor is due to the air/fuel though, NOT the IAT temps. It is NOT A CAUSE OF HEAT FROM THE BLOWER, IT IS DUE TO AIR/FUEL, ALONG WITH DIFFERENT VARIABLES THAT CHANGE HEAT IN A MOTOR.

I already posted, with a 2.76 and 2# lower, I DID NOT GET HEATSOAK. I am not just making this up. I will be going to the track, and if at all possible, I will try to hot lap. I wilL PUT MONEY that it does NOT effect it, AS I HAVE ALREADY DONE SO, WITH NO HEATSOAK.

Ok so all that hot air the blower builds up where does it go? You said "The heat i am describing is from the air/fuel." YES you are right!!! But HELLO- AIR the thing we were talking about that gets Hot, + fuel. Hmmmm :nonono: : :rollseyes

Im sorry and i know im really being an asshole in this thread. But the more you reply the worse you are making yourself look. Im sorry to say it.


The more your IAT temps go up the more you are prone to going lean and to detonate. This also depends on how your tune is setup as well. Most tuners pull timing the higher the IATs reach.

IAT=Inlet Air Temperature. ALL that hot air is going into your motor.

You can have an IAT of 120 degrees and a perfect air fuel.

You can have an IAT of 220 degrees and your Air/fuel is the same because your tune can compensate for it. But that air going in is still HOTTER making cylinder temps go up, even though your A/F is fine that doesnt mean shit. There is more to just A/F, timing plays a big role as well. If you have 23 degrees of timing with 140 IAT2 temps thats fine. If your IAT is 220 *F and you are running 23 degrees timing, say bye bye to your motor.

I can argue all day.

Please quit while you are kind of ahead

 

[lucafu1]

wow, that sucks to hear about your blower. apten told me that they tear down and check to make sure your blower is good to go. you gonna get another eaton? has anyone herd of this before?

 

[CobraBob]

Great thread Dom. Good info. I value Jimmy's expertise (and the other Joysee boys). And thanks to some of the others like Dave (Juiced46) and Jay (BLWN03) who have some great experience and know-how to add. And class! Folks, it is all good information. Use it for what it was meant for. Information to study and weigh. Information to help others make informed decisions on what they want to do (or not do) to their own car. It is info like this that helps insure that those future modders have what it takes to make a good, sound decision. Thanks Dom! Thanks Dave! Thanks Jay!

 

[Juiced46]

Originally posted by CobraBob
Great thread Dom. Good info. I value Jimmy's expertise (and the other Joysee boys). And thanks to some of the others like Dave (Juiced46) and Jay (BLWN03) who have some great experience and know-how to add. And class! Folks, it is all good information. Use it for what it was meant for. Information to study and weigh. Information to help others make informed decisions on what they want to do (or not do) to their own car. It is info like this that helps insure that those future modders have what it takes to make a good, sound decision. Thanks Dom! Thanks Dave! Thanks Jay!

No problem Bob. Thats what we are here for. I try to reply to peoples concerns with the facts. And 99% of the time i have had it happen to me, or some type of experience with it. You know ive been through it all, not only with the Cobra but with the GT. Im not saying i know everything, but i do not post misinformation.

Dom- im sorry to hear about your blower. Something doesnt seem right but i just dont know what exactly. Especially since it happend so soon after the lower.

I have seen like i posted before an upper/lower combo destroy a stock eaton, it was not ported. The person doesnt post much on the internet. And im sure you and him arent the only ones.

Some people have good luck with a combo, and some people have bud luck. Unfortunetely it didnt work out so well for you. When things like this happen i look for a way to improve the setup (that is if funds apply) hint hint ;-)

 

[Dominick32]

Originally posted by CobraBob
Great thread Dom. Good info. I value Jimmy's expertise (and the other Joysee boys). And thanks to some of the others like Dave (Juiced46) and Jay (BLWN03) who have some great experience and know-how to add. And class! Folks, it is all good information. Use it for what it was meant for. Information to study and weigh. Information to help others make informed decisions on what they want to do (or not do) to their own car. It is info like this that helps insure that those future modders have what it takes to make a good, sound decision. Thanks Dom! Thanks Dave! Thanks Jay!

Bob.
I could swear theres not a "bad bone" in your body.
Thanks for the kind words.
I just hope this information does indeed help future modders in decision making as I am here to guide people in making an educated decision. Wish me luck with my new blower. hehe

Thanks again,
Dom

 

[Dominick32]

Originally posted by Juiced46
No problem Bob. Thats what we are here for. I try to reply to peoples concerns with the facts. And 99% of the time i have had it happen to me, or some type of experience with it. You know ive been through it all, not only with the Cobra but with the GT. Im not saying i know everything, but i do not post misinformation.

Dom- im sorry to hear about your blower. Something doesnt seem right but i just dont know what exactly. Especially since it happend so soon after the lower.

I have seen like i posted before an upper/lower combo destroy a stock eaton, it was not ported. The person doesnt post much on the internet. And im sure you and him arent the only ones.

Some people have good luck with a combo, and some people have bud luck. Unfortunetely it didnt work out so well for you. When things like this happen i look for a way to improve the setup (that is if funds apply) hint hint ;-)

Thanks for the support Dave.
I am definitely gonna whip out the VISA card soon. heheh

Dom

 

[Jay03GT]

Originally posted by ITSTOCK
The heat you are describing in the motor is due to the air/fuel though, NOT the IAT temps. It is NOT A CAUSE OF HEAT FROM THE BLOWER, IT IS DUE TO AIR/FUEL, ALONG WITH DIFFERENT VARIABLES THAT CHANGE HEAT IN A MOTOR.

I already posted, with a 2.76 and 2# lower, I DID NOT GET HEATSOAK. I am not just making this up. I will be going to the track, and if at all possible, I will try to hot lap. I wilL PUT MONEY that it does NOT effect it, AS I HAVE ALREADY DONE SO, WITH NO HEATSOAK.

First on LS1.com, and now here. You need to stop. You are making an ass out of yourself.

And FWIW, I never said you couldn't drive, like you accused of me. I simply stated that if you had 12k miles at 500RWHP on a stock clutch and it wasn't slipping, you either don't run it very often or you shift like a girl, IE not power shifting. And go figure, you at 500 RWHP with your "superior" driving ability have manged to run the same time in PA as I have in Fl, 90+ degrees, 90+% humidity.:coolman:

 

[Dominick32]

Originally posted by Jay03GT
First on LS1.com, and now here. You need to stop. You are making an ass out of yourself.

And FWIW, I never said you couldn't drive, like you accused of me. I simply stated that if you had 12k miles at 500RWHP on a stock clutch and it wasn't slipping, you either don't run it very often or you shift like a girl, IE not power shifting. And go figure, you at 500 RWHP with your "superior" driving ability have manged to run the same time in PA as I have in Fl, 90+ degrees, 90+% humidity.:coolman:

Jay,
Thanks for bringing out the truth in this ignorant individual.

ITSTOCK, I see you have a nice reputation on the other forums also. I suggest you read a few more Automotive Enthusiast books before posting on svt performance. lol
It seems that you are very mis-informed about simple information regarding the works of a supercharged modular engine. Every time you post you make yourself look more and more ignorant.
Oh yeah, after carefully analyzing your posts there is one more thing:

Quote by: ITSTOCK @ 12:18 PM
Sorry, I'm not really buying into the bullshit that it creates that much more heat. Thanks for your insight, but sell it elsewhere. telling people that an upper/lower combo creates drastically more heat is rediculous. I also fail to see where HEAT is the cause of motors blowing.

Quote by: ITSTOCK @ 2:59 PM
I am not arguing the FACT that spinning the blower faster create's more heat, I am arguing the OPINOIN that the upper/lower pulley combo (to a point, obviously the 2.8/6# is a HUGE combo) creates enough HEAT TO MAJORLY EFFECT PERFORMANCE. PERIOD.

hahahah.. Mr. Flip Flop hard at work. Do you always change your opinion and facts this drastically?

Quote by: ITSTOCK @ 4:12 PM
Again, I agree that running a lot of boost and spinning the Eaton to the max IS going to generate heat.

I mean, youve gotta be kidding me man. Look back to what you initially stated in your first negative post. lol

One more thing for you:

Quote by: ITSTOCK @ 4:12 PM
UPPER/LOWER COMBO'S WILL NOT EFFECT TIMES IN back to back 1/4 MILE RUNS! (unless it's 115 degrees out, in which case a stock pullied car will have the same things happen!)

Did you not read everything all of my other knowledgable SVTP members posted in this thread regarding this exact issue?
Moron! Upper/Lower combos and HEATSOAK WILL AFFECT TRACK TIMES..
Its proven!

And last:

Quote by: ITSTOCK @ 12:18 PM
They truely aren't designed to spin as many RPMS as people have been pushing them, BUT, I have YET to see an eaton fail.

Well, MINE FAILED!! You have a prime example today buddy.

Dom

 

[ITSTOCK]

Originally posted by Jay03GT
First on LS1.com, and now here. You need to stop. You are making an ass out of yourself.

And FWIW, I never said you couldn't drive, like you accused of me. I simply stated that if you had 12k miles at 500RWHP on a stock clutch and it wasn't slipping, you either don't run it very often or you shift like a girl, IE not power shifting. And go figure, you at 500 RWHP with your "superior" driving ability have manged to run the same time in PA as I have in Fl, 90+ degrees, 90+% humidity.:coolman:

HAHA, well funny short story, clutch is gone as of tonight, could'nt get it into 3rd or 4th, than the clutch was just completely slipping :cuss: The difference between OUR TIMES is that I WAS NOT ON SPRAY, YOU WERE. That's a pretty big difference, huh :shrug: . Oh well, it's pointless about that anymore, but my clutch is gone.

http://home.comcast.net/~chalupa28/BYEBYECLUTCHweb.wmv

And about making an ass out of myself, people took sambandits personal experience. His was that he got HEATSOAK. In my case, I DID NOT GET HEATSOAK. I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about that??? It depends on the DA a lot, air temp, density, all kinds of variables. He was effected by heatsoak, while I am NOT.

 

[ITSTOCK]

Lastly, about failure, what proof do you have that overspinning has caused the failure?? It seems as though you have NONE. Let me know when the verdict comes back .