Detrimental Effects of High Boost (Upper/Lower Combo) on the Factory Eaton.

[Dominick32]

Originally Posted by Dirty Sanchez
How much stress are we putting on the eatons with this upper/lower combo?

Dirty Sanchez, I am glad you brought this up. Especially with all the recent upper/lower pulley combos and high boost applications like myself. This is a great question considering that out of all the post responses to my upper/lower combo results, not one person brought up the detrimental effects posed to this combination. I feel this discussion is a definite necessity and hope a few others chime in with responses.

I would say first of all, I agree with Jimmy Vaccaro: Boost is not your friend, especially with the factory "Heaton" supercharger. It is the enemy. The ideal situation for a supercharged Cobra would be to make the most power on the least amount of boost:

A perfect example would be Jims car making 507 rwhp. He is running a 2.93 upper pulley only with 12.5 lbs. of boost on his car, which is an extremely low number compared to most cobra owners who usually select a 2.80 or smaller pulley. The one difference in Jimmys combo is that he also installed headers and a throttle body.

I chose the dangerous way of making power. Jimmy makes 6 more horsepower than me and I am running 18 lbs. of boost. That is a full 5.5 more lbs. of boost than him. Yes, I am making close to 40 more ft. lbs. of torque, but its only because of the 4# lower that I just recently installed. I hope you can see my point here: Jimmy has an extremely safe combo compared to mine and is still making more horsepower than me on any given day of the week.

Heat, most likely from high boost applications like my own is the number one cause of failure and grenading a cobra engine. The eaton supercharger has a nickname "Heaton" for this reason exactly.

On that note, if you like to do back to back 155 mph highway runs. 18lbs. of boost creates extrememly high intake temperatures from the eaton. When I was tuning my car on the dyno after 5 to 6 runs Joey Lazaurdo (The Mustang Magic EFI Tuner) said he never saw intake temperatures even close to what mine were reading. And this was on a cold day. High Boost engines have a tendency to go "BOOM" when you are consecutively slapping through 5 gears at full boost on the highway. :nono:

Thats something I dont see myself doing anytime in the future.
This does not necessarily mean taking the car to a drag strip and running down the track is going to blow your engine. However, running two or three times down the track within 10 minutes apart and no cooldown period could definitely do something to those pistons. (IMO, the weak point of our engines)

I drive my car like an 85 year old man. I am never under boost and occasionally blast the car in 2nd gear and run it up to the top of 3rd, or occasional 4th gear blasts. Other than that, I never really drive this car hard. If you fall into my category of a cobra owner: You baby the car on the Street w/ occasional boost and 3 to 4 track visits during the year I feel the upper lower combo could be a great asset to you.

On the other hand, if you fall into a "Venomous John Category" where the car is being constantly driven hard than I would not suggest running more than 14 to 15 lbs. of boost.
Disclaimer
"Venomous John" driving is not recommended to any inexperienced members and could be seriously detrimental to the health of your engine. Use caution when driving like John, he is a professional. :lol:

All kidding aside there is one other side affect of 17 to 18 + lbs. of boost on the eaton. You are spinning the ever living shit out of this blower. I see this combo cutting the life of your blower by 30 to 40%, not to mention there is always a risk of destroying your blower over short term use. Not every eaton is the same, and some might not like the fact that they are being spun at incredible rates of speed WAY more than they were ever designed for.

With that being said, before I ported my blower and installed my upper/lower high boost combo I had the intentions of a backup plan. That being, if my blower ever took a shit I would buy an aftermarket Kenne Bell, Whipple, or Turbo Kit. I am getting extremely greedy when it comes to making my car faster and I have a few options that I am considering right now to make it a hellava lot faster than it already is. Call me crazy, but I am in the research stages of another project for my 2003 cobra. In a few short months you will have even more incredible results and information based on my car.
Good day to you all,

Dom

 

[jasil]

Tjhe reason upper/lower combos make so much torque is the same reason a 2.6'' upper would make so much torque...if you could make a 2.6 of course....

Your spinning the blower faster quicker, but the HP is always similiar because the flow is flow. Same thing happens with a undersized turbo on a engine...but they will fail much quicker than a overspun eaton will.

Good luck...and N20 is your friend. Your car would be a beast with a 75 shot...probably 625hp and 650tq...

 

[Dominick32]

Originally posted by jasil

Good luck...and N20 is your friend. Your car would be a beast with a 75 shot...probably 625hp and 650tq...

Thanks for the response Jasil.
And yes, notice how I didnt mention nitrous in the post.
N20 is definitely doable on these cars without a doubt.

However, Im looking into bigger things.
As of today, I am leaning towards either HP's Stage 3 Twin Turbo Kit or a Kenne Bell. :rockon:
hmmm??

Dom

 

[ITSTOCK]

ABout that "run your car in 10 minutes bla bla bla" BULLSHIT, I ran my car FIVE (5) times in a row. ALL THREE RUNS WERE [email protected] (the mph varied a coupled tenths, but VARIED, no pattern or decrease). ALL FIVE runs were within a 20 minute period. I am making 16+ pounds of boost, FACToRY HE, UNported eaton.

Sorry, I'm not really buying into the bullshit that it creates that much more heat. Thanks for your insight, but sell it elsewhere. The weather outside seems to have more of an effect than anything, telling people that an upper/lower combo creates drastically more heat is rediculous.

SHOW ME THE PROOF!~

The ideal situation for a supercharged Cobra would be to make the most power on the least amount of boost:

ummmmmmm, DUH! You than proceed to post dyno numbers, but you fail to mention your full list of mods (do you have headers? Throttle body?) how safe are the tunes compared to eachother??????????

An upper/lower combo will make more power than just an upper, or just a lower car.

I also fail to see where HEAT is the cause of motors blowing. I may be wrong about this, but I surely don't remember.

It seems as though your theory ONLY works when hot air is going into the engine (SUMMER). My AIT's were EXACTLY THE SAME on high speed runs pre-pulley, and POST-pulley. I'm not sure where you are getting your numbers???

As far as spinning the ever living shit out of the eaton, I am going to have to agree with that. They truely aren't designed to spin as many RPMS as people have been pushing them, BUT, I have YET to see an eaton fail.

 

[Dominick32]

Originally posted by ITSTOCK
ABout that "run your car in 10 minutes bla bla bla" BULLSHIT, I ran my car FIVE (5) times in a row. ALL THREE RUNS WERE [email protected] (the mph varied a coupled tenths, but VARIED, no pattern or decrease). ALL FIVE runs were within a 20 minute period. I am making 16+ pounds of boost, FACToRY HE, UNported eaton.

Sorry, I'm not really buying into the bullshit that it creates that much more heat. Thanks for your insight, but sell it elsewhere. The weather outside seems to have more of an effect than anything, telling people that an upper/lower combo creates drastically more heat is rediculous.

SHOW ME THE PROOF!~



ummmmmmm, DUH! You than proceed to post dyno numbers, but you fail to mention your full list of mods (do you have headers? Throttle body?) how safe are the tunes compared to eachother??????????

An upper/lower combo will make more power than just an upper, or just a lower car.

I also fail to see where HEAT is the cause of motors blowing. I may be wrong about this, but I surely don't remember.

It seems as though your theory ONLY works when hot air is going into the engine (SUMMER). My AIT's were EXACTLY THE SAME on high speed runs pre-pulley, and POST-pulley. I'm not sure where you are getting your numbers???

As far as spinning the ever living shit out of the eaton, I am going to have to agree with that. They truely aren't designed to spin as many RPMS as people have been pushing them, BUT, I have YET to see an eaton fail.

Im not even going to respond to any of your bullshit.
This thread was started to be a professional discussion about issues created from heat and over spinng the eaton. I do not appreciate your wise ass comments and cheap attempts to put down my opinion. Take your shit somewhere else. If you read the entire post you would see that not only are my mods listed in my signature, but I have the same exact modifications as Jimmy Vaccaro except for Headers and a Throttle Body. We were even tuned and dyno'd @ the same place.

BTW- Please read my other thread:
http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=135454&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

I AM ACTUALLY USING A 4# LOWER/2.93 UPPER COMBO!

Dom

 

[Dominick32]

P.S. Once again this thread is my opinion.
I am not stating a fact, nor do I work for Ford or any other automotive institution.

Read this again:

This is a great question considering that out of all the post responses to my upper/lower combo results, not one person brought up the detrimental effects posed to this combination. I feel this discussion is a definite necessity and hope a few others chime in with responses.

I like the way you chimed in with your responses ITSTOCK. That was real helpful and professional of you. Im sure the Internet community appreciates it.

Dom

 

[Dominick32]

ITSTOCK
-------------------------------
Birthday March 11, 1985
Real Name Steve
Biography
Vehicle 03 Cobra
Location Horsham, PA
-----------------------------

So your a 19 year old kid who is an expert on the 03 cobra?
Thanks for all your knowledge.

And I see you are also from Horsham, PA.

To all SVT Performance members. We actually banned a member who was trolling and harassing members on my forum a few weeks ago with the same location and age: We traced his IP address to Horsham, PA. This could quite possibly be the same kid.

Sorry about the thread hijack guys but when someone answers my thread in a fashion that seems almost personal towards me I look deeper into the situation. I really think this is the same kid we banned. :bash:

Dom

 

[46stang]

He's 19 dom. he already knows everything there is to know about everything! teenage hormones i guess:rollseyes
Anyways i agree with alot of what you have to say but i think you probably could do relatively several 1/4 mile blasts in a short period of time if your intercooler has fans on it. my water temp in the innercooler tank drops temp pretty quick with the fans on there. i have a stock intercooler with the spal fans. when the intercooler becomes heat saturated i could see that being a disater waiting to happen. as in those guys that like to to long highway blasts. I would never attemt that with upper/ lower combo, or even a small upper only. i think the ported eaton do help with some of the heat though as the port places more air accross the whole surface of the intercooler rather than just the one end of it. I believe apten even said that the small hole on the bottom they cut open doesn't even give it any more hp they do it primarily to distribute the heat better. i could be wrong but i think i read that somewhere.
I drive my car on weekends and go to the track about 4 times a year as well so i'm pretty confident it will last me awhile. i have a june of 02 car with 11,000 miles on it and been pullied at 1000 miles. no tick and runs great. so no worries here:rockon:
Leon

 

[Juiced46]

Originally posted by ITSTOCK
ABout that "run your car in 10 minutes bla bla bla" BULLSHIT, I ran my car FIVE (5) times in a row. ALL THREE RUNS WERE [email protected] (the mph varied a coupled tenths, but VARIED, no pattern or decrease). ALL FIVE runs were within a 20 minute period. I am making 16+ pounds of boost, FACToRY HE, UNported eaton.

Sorry, I'm not really buying into the bullshit that it creates that much more heat. Thanks for your insight, but sell it elsewhere. The weather outside seems to have more of an effect than anything, telling people that an upper/lower combo creates drastically more heat is rediculous.

SHOW ME THE PROOF!~



ummmmmmm, DUH! You than proceed to post dyno numbers, but you fail to mention your full list of mods (do you have headers? Throttle body?) how safe are the tunes compared to eachother??????????

An upper/lower combo will make more power than just an upper, or just a lower car.

I also fail to see where HEAT is the cause of motors blowing. I may be wrong about this, but I surely don't remember.

It seems as though your theory ONLY works when hot air is going into the engine (SUMMER). My AIT's were EXACTLY THE SAME on high speed runs pre-pulley, and POST-pulley. I'm not sure where you are getting your numbers???

As far as spinning the ever living shit out of the eaton, I am going to have to agree with that. They truely aren't designed to spin as many RPMS as people have been pushing them, BUT, I have YET to see an eaton fail.

Ive seen an eaton fail. 2.8 upper 6# lower the rotors got destroyed.


"It seems as though your theory ONLY works when hot air is going into the engine (SUMMER). My AIT's were EXACTLY THE SAME on high speed runs pre-pulley, and POST-pulley. I'm not sure where you are getting your numbers???"

So you are saying in the winter there isnt any hot air going into your engine? You are saying that in the winter your engine doesnt create heat in the engine compartment and sucked into the motor. Have you ever touched your blower after a few WOT blasts, its fuggin HOT. All that heat is going into your motor. Heat is VERY BAD and will destroy a motor even if the tune is good. Heat is one of the main reasons why a motor blows. WTF do u think your car being lean means? Lean means hot.

Also your car may have been consistent 11.6s going back to back to back runs, BUT you are consistently heat soaked. If you let the car cool, you would have ran faster then that.

You are spinning the blower faster, its going to create more heat, period.

 

[primo]

Get him Dom! I actually found your personal experience very helpful. It just made me want to get a whipple.

Apten port job: $475
Lower pulley Combo: $400
New Belt: $40
New Upper pulley: $90
LFP Heat exchanger:
--------------------------------
$1005

Which is almost half of the Amazon GP for the whipple.

 

[primo]

double post:bash:

 

[Dominick32]

Thanks for your insight and courteous opinions guys, unlike some other people we know....:bash:

I shouldve re-phrased a few sentences in my inital post regarding the back to back runs @ the track issue/etc. but I feel for the most part I have come to that conclusion based on personal experience, and once again: My own opinion.

Dom

 

[RGrossman]

ITSTOCK does know alot about cars. Also, not all us Horsham guys are bad!

The upper and lower generates more heat. That cannot be argued. I don't feel the average car would ever be damaged by the heat unless the car is torn to pieces daily as Dom said. Headers on these cars I thought were very beneficial due to removing more heat and lowering the cylinder pressure.

I havent had any issues with me 2.76 upper and 4lb lower combo. I do not get on the car much at all. Havent been to the track yet. As Dom said, the upper and lower combo is perfect for the low end killer torque that makes it feel so good as a daily driver.

 

[ITSTOCK]

I offered my opinion, you offered yours. How is your's soo much better? Sorry about the personal attacks if you took it that way, it was not meant to be a real attack. I just don't understand how people can take their opinion and act like it is fact. You have no evidence to back up your statements.

I am open if anyone has evidence. From MY personal experience, you stated that IAT temps change drastically, HOWEVER, THEY DID NOT CHANGE FOR ME.

Juiced46, with that pulley combo, it's more understandable it failed. That's pretty extreme!

When a car is LEAN, it means that is not getting proper fuel, or the air is drastically greater than the fuel going into the motor. I may have missed where heat factors into the equation, but again, I am open to learn. About the winter air, YES IT IS COOLER. IT IS NOT ONLY COOLER, BUT IT IS DENSER!

As far as my runs go, the first run was after a TWO HOUR COOLDOWN! While in the staging lanes (not reving it, so heat from the pulley alone doesn't matter), the motor reached normal operating temps., and I guess it didn't change lal that much the following runs, huh?

I am not arguing the FACT that spinning the blower faster create's more heat, I am arguing the OPINOIN that the upper/lower pulley combo (to a point, obviously the 2.8/6# is a HUGE combo) creates enough HEAT TO MAJORLY EFFECT PERFORMANCE. PERIOD.

back to Dominick32, just because you have close to the same combo's, does NOT mean the car will run the same. NO TWO cars will dyno exactly the same with the same mods. A MUCH MUCH better comparison would be if Jimmy V put the upper lower combo on HIS CAR.

Oh yea, I forgot being 19 is some kind of major downfall in life LOL. GREAAAAAAAT ARGUMENT! You are older, therefore, YOU MUST BE BETTER! I bow to you!

As far as being a troll, feel free to get someone to travel to horsham. Ask RGROSSMAN, ask my tuner, JAMES, at RWTD. Go ahead, feel free to.

Just because my "19 year old opinion" is different than your's, doesn't mean you are right.

Again, sorry if it came off as a personal attack in my previous post, but some of your statements are rediculous.

 

[blownstang01]

2.93 upper, 4# lower, 8 laps around Watkins Glen equals one scuffed piston. And that's with a larger heat exchanger and a Vortech water box. I was not able to log IAT2 temps, but the water in the Vortech box was close to boiling !! Yes, spinning an Eaton this fast spells trouble.

 

[RGrossman]

For Autocrossing, I would never run past the recommended limit on the Eaton. The upper and lower are god for short blasts only which is what I do.

 

[ITSTOCK]

Again, I agree that running a lot of boost and spinning the Eaton to the max IS going to generate heat. In blownstang01's case, that's a LOT OF HEAT! 8 laps of CONTINUOUS beating on a car is HELL for any car, with OR without a blower. I guess I should have made my post even clearer with the relation to DRAG racing. I do NOT believe that a couple runs down the 1/4 (I'd say below 5) in a 20 minute period is going to generate a huge loss in power. The return road alone is a good couple minute cooldown at extremely low rpms. The common phrase "hot-lapping" is what comes to mind, and what I did. Again, there were NO changes from the initial run to the last run in the series, back to back.

And I agree with RGRossman on the autocross, again, I point out that continuously beating on ANY car is going to be EXTREMELY detrimental to the motor. I have also heard of STOCK PULLIED 03 cobra's blowing their motor in autocrossing. How can they prove that the motor was blown do to heat beign generated?? Also, I know if I were autocrossing, I would have a couple of temp. gauges, and if one started getting hot, YOU DON'T KEEP BEATING ON IT! That's like blowing a headgasket and saying, oh well, I still have 3 more laps to go, why not finish it out?? OF COURSE YOUR MOTOR IS GOING TO GET WORSE Heat is obviously a problem caused by the pully, but I do NOT believe it is a problem in drag racing, under somewhat normal weather conditions (a stock pullied cobra is going to suffer a great loss too in 115 degree weather,do to the warmer and less dense air).:kaboom:

 

[Dominick32]

Originally posted by ITSTOCK
I offered my opinion, you offered yours. How is your's soo much better? Sorry about the personal attacks if you took it that way, it was not meant to be a real attack. I just don't understand how people can take their opinion and act like it is fact. You have no evidence to back up your statements.

I am open if anyone has evidence. From MY personal experience, you stated that IAT temps change drastically, HOWEVER, THEY DID NOT CHANGE FOR ME.

Juiced46, with that pulley combo, it's more understandable it failed. That's pretty extreme!

When a car is LEAN, it means that is not getting proper fuel, or the air is drastically greater than the fuel going into the motor. I may have missed where heat factors into the equation, but again, I am open to learn. About the winter air, YES IT IS COOLER. IT IS NOT ONLY COOLER, BUT IT IS DENSER!

As far as my runs go, the first run was after a TWO HOUR COOLDOWN! While in the staging lanes (not reving it, so heat from the pulley alone doesn't matter), the motor reached normal operating temps., and I guess it didn't change lal that much the following runs, huh?

I am not arguing the FACT that spinning the blower faster create's more heat, I am arguing the OPINOIN that the upper/lower pulley combo (to a point, obviously the 2.8/6# is a HUGE combo) creates enough HEAT TO MAJORLY EFFECT PERFORMANCE. PERIOD.

back to Dominick32, just because you have close to the same combo's, does NOT mean the car will run the same. NO TWO cars will dyno exactly the same with the same mods. A MUCH MUCH better comparison would be if Jimmy V put the upper lower combo on HIS CAR.

Oh yea, I forgot being 19 is some kind of major downfall in life LOL. GREAAAAAAAT ARGUMENT! You are older, therefore, YOU MUST BE BETTER! I bow to you!

As far as being a troll, feel free to get someone to travel to horsham. Ask RGROSSMAN, ask my tuner, JAMES, at RWTD. Go ahead, feel free to.

Just because my "19 year old opinion" is different than your's, doesn't mean you are right.

Again, sorry if it came off as a personal attack in my previous post, but some of your statements are rediculous.

Ok. So now you are trying to win this argument with a 2.80 upper and 6# lower is HUGE. and generates that much more heat than my upper/lower combo. I might as well call you "Flip Flop" You already stated in your original thread that:

Sorry, I'm not really buying into the bullshit that it creates that much more heat. Thanks for your insight, but sell it elsewhere. The weather outside seems to have more of an effect than anything, telling people that an upper/lower combo creates drastically more heat is rediculous.

Man, you switch sides of the argument in a heartbeat. You realize you are wrong and try to turn it around on me again.

ummmmmmm, DUH! You than proceed to post dyno numbers, but you fail to mention your full list of mods (do you have headers? Throttle body?) how safe are the tunes compared to eachother??????????

Asshole, re read the entire post again and check my damn signature.

I cant stress how much you flip flop back and forth:

I may have missed where heat factors into the equation, but again, I am open to learn. About the winter air, YES IT IS COOLER. IT IS NOT ONLY COOLER, BUT IT IS DENSER!

:bash:

If you are still learning about the subject dont open your mouth in the first place.

I also fail to see where HEAT is the cause of motors blowing. I may be wrong about this, but I surely don't remember.

Gotta love Mr. "Flip Flop"

Please re read Juiced46's statement:
----------------------------------
You are saying that in the winter your engine doesnt create heat in the engine compartment and sucked into the motor. Have you ever touched your blower after a few WOT blasts, its fuggin HOT. All that heat is going into your motor. Heat is VERY BAD and will destroy a motor even if the tune is good. Heat is one of the main reasons why a motor blows. WTF do u think your car being lean means? Lean means hot.

Also your car may have been consistent 11.6s going back to back to back runs, BUT you are consistently heat soaked. If you let the car cool, you would have ran faster then that.

You are spinning the blower faster, its going to create more heat, period.
------------------------------------------


Once again, you show your stupidity and steer away from a professional discussion. Please just leave this thread as your insight has been greatly appreciated.

Dom

 

[sambandit]

LOL, this is a good read.

 

[sambandit]

BTW, FWIT, I tried back to back to back runs when I was in GA. This was on a relatively cool night, like 70 degrees. Now, the clutch was real hot and maybe slipping a little, but my 3rd pass was 10 mph less than my first. I would have never believed the effect heat soak has on this whole setup.

BTW, running a upper/lower car on a road course for 8 laps is absolutely suicide. I wouldn't even run a 2.8 upper for that long.