i would put the stock tune back on your car ASAP.
Cause of the #8:
- Thread starter Shaun@AED
- Start date
i would put the stock tune back on your car ASAP.
I pulled 2 degrees of timing for now.
I thought about this some more today...
I don't think there is any reason that an aftermarket tune for these engines has to be inherently less safe than the factory tune. Obviously if you screw with the knock sensor sensitivity than there can be catastrophic results but if you leave them stock than there is no reason advancing the timing and running 93 octane is any less safe.
For starters the factory tune uses the knock sensors too pull timing if the customer is running 87 octane. If the knock sensor is just as sensitive than with 5 more degrees of timing the knock will be detected just as soon and if the retard table pulls timing at a rate equivalent to the advance (ie in larger increments than the stock tune pulls timing) than there is nothing more dangerous in the aftermarket tune.
The same magnitude of knock will trip the sensors and then by pulling timing in larger increments the duration of knock will be equal to the duration of knock with the factory tune and 87 octane.
Triggering the knock sensors isn't inherently going to fatigue the engine or cause it to fail, otherwise running 87 octane with a stock vehicle would be just as dangerous as running a 93 performance tune.
For added insurance there is a simple solution and it will also make sure even on hot days that you are getting every bit of hp out of your tune as possible. Run Torco, for an extra $10 a tank you can run 95 octane. That is about an extra $30-$40 bucks a month for a little insurance.
Anyway, those are my thoughts.
I don't think there is any reason that an aftermarket tune for these engines has to be inherently less safe than the factory tune. Obviously if you screw with the knock sensor sensitivity than there can be catastrophic results but if you leave them stock than there is no reason advancing the timing and running 93 octane is any less safe.
For starters the factory tune uses the knock sensors too pull timing if the customer is running 87 octane. If the knock sensor is just as sensitive than with 5 more degrees of timing the knock will be detected just as soon and if the retard table pulls timing at a rate equivalent to the advance (ie in larger increments than the stock tune pulls timing) than there is nothing more dangerous in the aftermarket tune.
The same magnitude of knock will trip the sensors and then by pulling timing in larger increments the duration of knock will be equal to the duration of knock with the factory tune and 87 octane.
Triggering the knock sensors isn't inherently going to fatigue the engine or cause it to fail, otherwise running 87 octane with a stock vehicle would be just as dangerous as running a 93 performance tune.
For added insurance there is a simple solution and it will also make sure even on hot days that you are getting every bit of hp out of your tune as possible. Run Torco, for an extra $10 a tank you can run 95 octane. That is about an extra $30-$40 bucks a month for a little insurance.
Anyway, those are my thoughts.
There are limits to how much timing the knock sensors can pull out, over 6000rpm at high load its limited to -4 degrees, so if you add 5 degrees of global timing - 4 may not be enough to keep it from beating itself to death. Thats assuming the knock sensors can 'hear' the knock as well. Plus tuners can also change the rate of advance or retard the knock sensors can add and remove.
To expand, the knock sensors don't pull 5 degrees all at once. They pull 1 degree per 'increment', in a stock tune that is 1 to 1.5 seconds, so one degree every 1 to 1.5 seconds.
Great pics and data on the plugs.
Interesting that the #6 shows the signs as well as 8.
What about a plug with a shorter ground strap? Shorter strap = less heat in the strap since there's less surface area for the heat to reach the aluminum head.
I can't tell in the pics, are these 1" reach plugs or are they like older 4V's .708" reach?
Indeed it is not pulled all at once, and some tuners change that rate, as well as the advance rate if no knock is detected.
Does anyone know what max total timing is stock?
And what is considered safe total timing?
Sorry if this has already been covered I must have missed it.
And what is considered safe total timing?
Sorry if this has already been covered I must have missed it.
CPRsm
Active Member
I'd say 1in. I measure .950 from the base of the seating taper to the base of the strap. The top of the strap was probably 1.00
I kinda like to tune on the dyno loaded with a long strap to easily read, then pull a little timing and hit the track with a shorter strap.
I wouldn't mind looking at a set of plugs on a Boss. My guess would be the manifold and its distribution. I might be able to borrow one to find out. Let me make a call or two. I know that usually PD blower cars the cyl farthest back are usually leanest because of the way the blower compresses and moves the air. It's funny because when I took the blower and IC out, threw the hat on, the lean cyl's moved forward. Really looking to see what happens with the new tune. I have a feeling it's going to be hot on 8......maybe even 6 after seeing these plugs. If ford is favoring 6, 8 just might be the weakest link. I'll as the customer if I can take some stuff apart on his brand new car lol. I have a feeling the inlet might give a clue as to why the cyl temps.
I kinda like to tune on the dyno loaded with a long strap to easily read, then pull a little timing and hit the track with a shorter strap.
I wouldn't mind looking at a set of plugs on a Boss. My guess would be the manifold and its distribution. I might be able to borrow one to find out. Let me make a call or two. I know that usually PD blower cars the cyl farthest back are usually leanest because of the way the blower compresses and moves the air. It's funny because when I took the blower and IC out, threw the hat on, the lean cyl's moved forward. Really looking to see what happens with the new tune. I have a feeling it's going to be hot on 8......maybe even 6 after seeing these plugs. If ford is favoring 6, 8 just might be the weakest link. I'll as the customer if I can take some stuff apart on his brand new car lol. I have a feeling the inlet might give a clue as to why the cyl temps.
Exactly.
CPRsm
Active Member
There is no one answer. That's why you have to pull plugs. Especially with these engines and variable cam timing. You can create different cyl pressure at different times and if they crank up the cyl pressure, it may need less timing to make more power.
That was my point basically, there are safe ways to advance the timing. Don't pour it on to quickly and retard it at a rate equivalent to the advance.
If you don't screw with the knock sensor sensitivity and you have equivalent retard and advance rates than a 93 performance tune isn't any less safe than running 87 in the stock tune.
If you don't screw with the knock sensor sensitivity and you have equivalent retard and advance rates than a 93 performance tune isn't any less safe than running 87 in the stock tune.
CPRsm
Active Member
To a point. But while the rates can be the same, you can start initially too high. Then if you are WELL into knock the ramps to pull timing may not be fast enough. Personally I wouldn't have a problem turning them off completely. I think relying on them may be a good reason some of this may be happening. Expecting the knock sensors to save your ass on a tune that runs the ragged edge may be a problem. Or I could be talking out of mine. lol
Try autolite. They make a few good plugs with short straps.
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Yeah I'm sure you could start too high and that could spell trouble. But that begs the question what is too high and how close is the factory tune to the ragged edge?
Ford has to warranty the factory tune for 60k miles so I'd imagine they aren't even close to the danger zone pertaining to how much timing can be pulled in order to get it back super safe for 87 octane.
So if you are running 93 and have an additional 5 degrees of timing you don't need to be able to pull the timing back as far as the factory tune because you have an extra 6 octane.
I think?
As far as relying on them, I hope tuners aren't. I agree it is probably better to produce a tune that for the most part will never need retarding except for suboptimal conditions. Which is no different than when someone puts 87 in the tank of a stock 5.0.
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The reason I asked about stock total timing is because I did a catalog today for the first time and wanted to see where I am compared to stock.
So total timing depends on variables, but what is the most you can see stock?
So total timing depends on variables, but what is the most you can see stock?
There are 16 Boarderline knock tables, 16 MTB tables and full modifiers for both sets of tables.
It's virtually impossible to say exactly what timing *can* be in stock form.
Too many variables.
On my inertia drum on 91 octane I see on average 21 degrees peak....which is LESS than I see from GT500's!
Bama Tunes is offering a warranty now on any vehicle running their tunes. I give American Muscle credit for standing up for us.
Introducing the Bama Performance 2011+ Mustang GT Custom Tune Warranty - Ford Mustang Forums
I got their tune.
Introducing the Bama Performance 2011+ Mustang GT Custom Tune Warranty - Ford Mustang Forums
I got their tune.
This is a stock run on my 11GT. Max timing is 21 degrees
Another stock run on 11 GT with max timing at 20 degrees
This is a stock run on my 11 GT500. Timing is 25 down to 22 degrees.
Another stock run on 11 GT with max timing at 20 degrees
This is a stock run on my 11 GT500. Timing is 25 down to 22 degrees.
ill be checking my plugs later, if i see 6 & 8 look like some here, the car is getting sold off
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