Another dead Coyote - VMP TVS
- Thread starter techwerkz
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This Coyote motor isn't any diff then any other combustion engine.
U need good octane when running boost. Its so important its crazy. Half the guys on this site don't realize it.
I have going a long time with my VMP tune and TVS almost 2 years now.
Anything over 10psi with pump gas your looking for problems I don't car what anyone says.
12-13 your nuts making top gear pulls without Torco.
Only takes one time for bad gas at the pump.
U need good octane when running boost. Its so important its crazy. Half the guys on this site don't realize it.
I have going a long time with my VMP tune and TVS almost 2 years now.
Anything over 10psi with pump gas your looking for problems I don't car what anyone says.
12-13 your nuts making top gear pulls without Torco.
Only takes one time for bad gas at the pump.
Yes this! Gas is GOD! haha cheap & bad gass can cause u lots of money in the long run!
Agree with octane. There was a guy on another site that was running just over 700whp w/ tvs on stock bottom end. He was using meth and torco I believe. Lasted a long time, but when he upped the boost more, it let go. 2c2s was his tag.
so what has VMP said about this whole situation
(sorry if i missed it)
(sorry if i missed it)
E85 ftw, and I test the gas station (Kum & Go) I fill up at all the time. Its average at 87-90% ethanol. I run 10psi at 15o of timing (663whp) with my Paxton. I can't afford crap gas!
Pretty sure Justin is in MD this weekend at the NMRA thing, at least thats what it says up top there in the VMP section.
FWIW I have VMPs latest tune and I use it for a base tune and tweak it myself with PRP, the 82mm tune is pretty mild and doesnt have as much timing and is nowhere as lean as the log posted with 8-9psi so who knows.
He was at MIR this weekend. He tuned my car friday with the 75mm pulley to 654/600. Then I read this thread and talked to him Saturday. He gave me a lot more conservative tune which I haven't loaded because I wanted to make sure nothing happened so that I could get back to AL! I will upload the tune before I drive it again.
I have also asked about a tune to run torco. I need to do some research about it as I have heard of it but never read anything about it.
There was another guy who had the base Roush kit and upgraded injectors, pulley and to the AFCO. Justin did a very conservative tune for him and he laid down a little less than I did.
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I am not blaming the tuner, but there is good information here. I based my purchased and pulley size off what was considered safe by VMP prior to purchase on pump gas. Should this advice be adjusted in the future, or more information be put out there? I think so. That's the importance of this thread.
My datalogs before this second tune were analyzed by Justin and he said A/F looked perfect, but my air charge was high. I pulled the bumper and found a small kink in the intercooler inlet hose right at the inlet. This wasn't a huge issue, but it was resolved. I flashed this second tune and went on my way not thinking that anything else would be adjusted. The only changes mentioned were adjustments for revs/mile for my tire size.
I honestly didn't think this setup would make as much power as it has shown in the other thread. 650/600 with a 75mm pulley is more than I would want. I wanted to be at 600, not much more. Comparing the regular Roush setups a 79mm would put me pretty close to that.
I haven't heard back from Justin, but as said he's been out of town. I will e-mail him today.
My datalogs before this second tune were analyzed by Justin and he said A/F looked perfect, but my air charge was high. I pulled the bumper and found a small kink in the intercooler inlet hose right at the inlet. This wasn't a huge issue, but it was resolved. I flashed this second tune and went on my way not thinking that anything else would be adjusted. The only changes mentioned were adjustments for revs/mile for my tire size.
I honestly didn't think this setup would make as much power as it has shown in the other thread. 650/600 with a 75mm pulley is more than I would want. I wanted to be at 600, not much more. Comparing the regular Roush setups a 79mm would put me pretty close to that.
I haven't heard back from Justin, but as said he's been out of town. I will e-mail him today.
Tech- pls keep this updated with his response. I'm running similar setup on my '13. Thanks.
As of late, Justin has been great at responding to emails wether he's at his shop or not.
As of late, Justin has been great at responding to emails wether he's at his shop or not.
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Everything you did makes sense, I would have went about it the same way if I went with VMP's kit. Even 600 is a lot of power on a stock short block though.
Its really hard to compare dyno numbers from different dynos, someone at altitude can make a lot of corrected power on a lesser fuel system that will kill an engine at sea level. Always best to look at uncorrected numbers from boosted cars. Not to mention different brands of dynos vary quite a bit, the most popular dynos in the neighborhood are the ones that read high and not low
If your intercooler wasnt working right there is a good chance you already damaged something testing (not making excuses for VMP, been there myself). No doubt that log you posted shows some pretty aggressive tuning, there is a good amount of timing and the a/f was pretty lean up high, it was dead by the time it hit 4th gear IMO I'm assuming no cats (or at least COT was turned off in the tune) since COT should have kicked in, or it was just out of pump/injector. The reason I mention cats is if one side melts and blocks one bank the exhaust it will have a ton of crankcase pressure and smoke like a pig. Quick compression test will tell the story. If you had no cats then never mind.
Having broken a few pistons on various stock engines in newer cars over the years pushing it a bit too much I feel your pain.
when are you getting your engine removed and torn apart? im subscribing to see what the engine internals will reveal about the story.
My TVS is being installed. I got 85/82/79mm pulleys and stock air box. After reading all this info I dont think i will go beyond 82mm and luckily with about 550rwhp.
My TVS is being installed. I got 85/82/79mm pulleys and stock air box. After reading all this info I dont think i will go beyond 82mm and luckily with about 550rwhp.
Everything you did makes sense, I would have went about it the same way if I went with VMP's kit. Even 600 is a lot of power on a stock short block though.
Its really hard to compare dyno numbers from different dynos, someone at altitude can make a lot of corrected power on a lesser fuel system that will kill an engine at sea level. Always best to look at uncorrected numbers from boosted cars. Not to mention different brands of dynos vary quite a bit, the most popular dynos in the neighborhood are the ones that read high and not low
If your intercooler wasnt working right there is a good chance you already damaged something testing (not making excuses for VMP, been there myself). No doubt that log you posted shows some pretty aggressive tuning, there is a good amount of timing and the a/f was pretty lean up high, it was dead by the time it hit 4th gear IMO I'm assuming no cats (or at least COT was turned off in the tune) since COT should have kicked in, or it was just out of pump/injector. The reason I mention cats is if one side melts and blocks one bank the exhaust it will have a ton of crankcase pressure and smoke like a pig. Quick compression test will tell the story. If you had no cats then never mind.
Having broken a few pistons on various stock engines in newer cars over the years pushing it a bit too much I feel your pain.
It was working, but it was definitely higher than it should be. It was also 93 outside when I did the datalogging. The last log showed 117 air charge which is pretty good after driving a PD 7 minutes lol. However it was night and we had some cooler air for this time of year.
I have a ORX. No cats.
In any regards, this setup makes some power. I don't care about dyno numbers, but those were SAE posted in that other thread. My dyno is to look at trap speed. I just didn't get that far lol. Again, what happened, happened. Time to build it, and see what it does.
I will post pictures of the tear down when the time comes. Won't happen overnight, but it will happen soon enough.
The IATs looked pretty good on the log you posted, better than the stock exchanger with what looked like 75* or so ambient temps. On my '11 the pump was air locked and barely circulating and the first time I got into it started pinging pretty bad in 2nd so I went and fixed it pretty quick lol. Got pretty lucky it was cool out and I had the windows down, had no way to log IAT2 at the time, thought I did some damage but it was OK. A long pull in 3rd would have put the hurt on it I bet though.
I understand with the dyno numbers, just a lot of numbers get thrown around, I dont dyno anything lol.
One thing I did on my track tune was stop the knock sensors from adding timing and just let them pull it/add it back a little quicker. I'm not a huge fan of knock sensors, I'll add the extra timing myself.
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Justin has said it so many times that an 82mm and closed air box is what he recommands for an everyday street car. Anything more like an open element filter or 79mm pulley needs Torco or a splash of race gas.
There have been so many threads on this if u want to play you could possible have to pay.
I know with my setup its just a matter of time.
There have been so many threads on this if u want to play you could possible have to pay.
I know with my setup its just a matter of time.
Depends how many times you nail it
I always put a little MS109 in and richen it up a little to compensate for it at the track with the 82mm/closed airbox, just for a little extra safety since I know I'm going to be holding it to the floor for 11 seconds or so several times. But all my street pulls/tuning is on 93 and I run it pretty hard on the street at times. I like to see how much timing and how lean I can go, but I also look at the plugs and do an occasional compression test. Even though by the time you see the compression dropping its too late, but why burn it down further..
I have no problem doing an engine for the car if something happens, but I really dont want to
Not what he told me via e-mail before purchasing. He said the 79mm would be fine for daily duty, and a 72mm with Torco would be good for the track.
Again, the point is moot. If there are a lot of threads with him saying something different, then I am not sure why he would tell me different directly.
Thats what Justin recommends with the stock Roush setup.
Most likely with the larger heat exchanger he figured a little more power could be made safely. Not really a huge difference between the 79 and 82mm, but until you get a few other cars out there running the same parts for a while its hard to tell. I'm surprised with the JLT, 79mm and ported inlet you are picking up 3psi, on a good day I see a little under 9psi with the 82 and stock airbox.
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Me too. Shot you a text. When you have some time.
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