Another dead Coyote - VMP TVS

[mastwolf]

Please make sure you know what you are talking about prior to making fun of people who do. Your logic works...on cars that use different ecu parameters. Catch up with the times and read or try it for yourself like I did. Meth will not skew the trims enough to even worry about them

How much is not enough to worry about? When should someone be worried that the pcm is correcting too much? I'm just wanting to know from someone who seems to know a lot about this.

 

[Laloosh]

How much is not enough to worry about? When should someone be worried that the pcm is correcting too much? I'm just wanting to know from someone who seems to know a lot about this.

Assuming your orignal tune is close to 1.00 under WOT operation I would think anything above .90 would be fine. The ecu will take fuel out once it sees methanol hence the lower then 1.00 value. Tecnically anything above .80 would be fine, but I like to stay plus or minus 10 percent of "perfect".

Personally I feel tuners who remove fuel to tune for meth and add timing due to the knock resistance methanol provides are playing with fire. Unless there is a super quick failsafe involved incase of clogged lines, leaks, pump failures ect...you are relying on the stock knock sensor to save your ass. If you leave the tuning and timing alone and just add meth ontop of your tune, you will not only gain power, but you will not risk engine damage as timing is still intedned for pump gas. The fail safes for the n54 are pretty sweet, however I am not sure what the meth users are using on this platform. Instint tells me the failsafe for this platform suck....but I can't confirm that

 

[CPRsm]

10% is a shit ton of fuel. The same reason the idea doesn't work well is the same reason relying on the knocks sensors is a bad idea. It's reactive, not pro active like a proper tune. By the time the O2's read the data, the car has moved to a new maf point. The correction isn't a fix all. Once it reads the data it can't go back and change the burn. You'll be relying on LTFT to take care of it and get it a little closer. If all this reactionary gear was able to correct everything engines wouldn't blow and nitrous companies wouldn't need to supply fuel solenoids.

 

[Mikegee1028]

Wasn't the tuner going to tell us his 2 cents on this incident?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

 

[svt5.4]

Wasn't the tuner going to tell us his 2 cents on this incident?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

He's still reviewing all the data. He wants to make sure it's clear that it was user error.:dw:

 

[Mikegee1028]

He's still reviewing all the data. He wants to make sure it's clear that it was user error.:dw:

Thanks

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Laloosh]

10% is a shit ton of fuel. The same reason the idea doesn't work well is the same reason relying on the knocks sensors is a bad idea. It's reactive, not pro active like a proper tune. By the time the O2's read the data, the car has moved to a new maf point. The correction isn't a fix all. Once it reads the data it can't go back and change the burn. You'll be relying on LTFT to take care of it and get it a little closer. If all this reactionary gear was able to correct everything engines wouldn't blow and nitrous companies wouldn't need to supply fuel solenoids.

You realize the stock tune is off 12-15 percent on bone stock cars? I am not saying they are able to react to all conditions I am saying a 10 percent swing isn't much to worry about. Either way running meth will not alter trims that much to begin with. I simply said personally I wouldn't care if it was up to 10 percent either way. I much rather the car pull fuel to hit target then to tune for meth and rely on some bullshit fail safe when the car goes lean from a meth failure. Trust me on this one I have run meth on different wideband platforms for over 6 years

 

[mastwolf]

You realize the stock tune is off 12-15 percent on bone stock cars? I am not saying they are able to react to all conditions I am saying a 10 percent swing isn't much to worry about. Either way running meth will not alter trims that much to begin with. I simply said personally I wouldn't care if it was up to 10 percent either way. I much rather the car pull fuel to hit target then to tune for meth and rely on some bullshit fail safe when the car goes lean from a meth failure. Trust me on this one I have run meth on different wideband platforms for over 6 years

Its obvious you do not know what your talking about, at least on this platform. Be careful because a lot of people will read what you write and take it as fact, which is what Im assuming you have been doing from other threads/forums.

 

[Laloosh]

Correct me than. Because to me it is obvious you are a parrot talking theory without actually saying anything that proves or disproves your point. My car any many others had ltfts of 1.12 and 1.14 bone stock. Ask some of the tuners, they have all seen the same.

 

[mhyjek]

Laloosh is correct. I've used meth/injection on different applications speed3 and old 5.0 with paxton. I never used it as a fuel only for safety. I never tuned for it, just used enough to cool off air and make sure my octane # was good. Think of like running your car on a cool November day with 100 octane fuel vs running it with regular and 100 degree heat and 90% humidity.

 

[Laloosh]

Shhh I want to see data of non relevant applications using meth.

 

[CPRsm]

Correct me than. Because to me it is obvious you are a parrot talking theory without actually saying anything that proves or disproves your point.

I posted a clear example of lowering inlets killing power and you had nothing to say.:shrug:

My car any many others had ltfts of 1.12 and 1.14 bone stock. Ask some of the tuners, they have all seen the same.

Because the factory does it must be right? it might fly but not something I'd call ok or right. as long as the customer doesn't feel it buck everyone's happy! You don't think there's a reason tuned cars run better than factory? You don't think the ltfts have anything to do with that?

Shhh I want to see data of non relevant applications using meth.

2 minute google search shows the same consensus. Here's a first hand account with dyno numbers and a link. A little non relevant data. ;-)

Power gains from Meth/Water injection? [Archive] - SupraMania

I've had a lot of experience with alcohol/meth injection. I ran it on by 7MGTE on two different turbo setups, and I ran it on my 2JZGE-T setup.

The amount of power you can gain (by proper fueling/timing/boost) is going to be dependent on the amount of meth you inject.

Please read the next information I provide with caution.
Cliffs at bottom.

Methanol injection adds more octane to the mixture, water/methanol.. same thing just less octane. Water injection will lower IAT's and prevent some detonation. I have had great luck with 100% methanol.

I was speaking with a member about two years ago, when I told him I was running methanol injection, he insisted that I was going to make less power because of it. He tells me that a VERY well known 7M member on this forum dynoed on his meth injection setup, and then dynoed without the methanol kit and instead ran racegas. He made more power per PSI on racegas. The difference was pretty supprising. I knew what I had in mind so I said 'whatever' and went along my way.

Let's jump forward a year.
I take my car to the dyno. I've done a lot of re-search and street tuning to my 2JZGE-T setup, and found what I feel is a very comfortable, conservative timing map, and all my air fuels are dead on. There was nothing about my engine that I felt was under par, so I knew that I would be putting down some decent numbers. Long story short I didn't.. I did 450whp at 26psi or something ridiculous like that..

Knowing that my setup was solid, I was baffled. I knew it had to be the tune. I was working with the Stinger EMS, so I took advantage of that and added in a couple degrees of timing to my already "perfect" timing map. Using det-cans I could tell that I didn't hear anything out of the usual, but the car pulled amazingly harder than before. I decided to run up to the dyno, having changed nothing but a couple degrees of timing.
The dyno operator could'nt believe I was back. He said "you change anything?" I said "yup, I added a couple degrees timing". We both laughed and he strapped the car down, didn't thinking we'd see any gains that day.
First dyno pull 20-21 psi was 615whp, 27.5 was 677whp.

CLIFFS: TUNING and TIMING are crucial. Of course your 7MGTE running on a PIGGYBACK and the stock ECU are going to net more HP on racegas, you need proper tuning. You really can't just tune the AFR's and call it a day with any DECENT ammount of methanol injection. It WILL kill your power.

200rwhp+ at the same boost level when he fixed the tune. I'd say it was killing a touch of power. Again maybe the levels you guys are spraying are different. Couldn't say. But losing power is entirely possible just as are lowering the inlets.

 

[Laloosh]

I posted a clear example of lowering inlets killing power and you had nothing to say.:shrug:

Because the factory does it must be right? it might fly but not something I'd call ok or right. as long as the customer doesn't feel it buck everyone's happy! You don't think there's a reason tuned cars run better than factory? You don't think the ltfts have anything to do with that?



2 minute google search shows the same consensus. Here's a first hand account with dyno numbers and a link. A little non relevant data. ;-)

Power gains from Meth/Water injection? [Archive] - SupraMania





200rwhp+ at the same boost level when he fixed the tune. I'd say it was killing a touch of power. Again maybe the levels you guys are spraying are different. Couldn't say. But losing power is entirely possible just as are lowering the inlets.

Can we use modern ecu examples? Maybe I missed it but what car showed this massive drop with iat drops? First of meth will get you to ambiant temps, it's actually very hard to drop below that. I think your problem is google vs first hand.

As for a stock car running 1.12. Do me a favor, take a bone stock car and change NOTHING but make the ltfts run 1.00. Your car will not run any better than stock.

 

[Laloosh]

Lol I just notice that guy was using a piggyback? You realize how piggyback vs flash tuning works right?

 

[stang8psi]

Yup, even Lund doesn't change for the meth either. Just was told to add it and not need any changes in the tune!

 

[Laloosh]

Lol hold on we need more examples of failure from cars using ecus from over a decade ago.

 

[CPRsm]

You have any logs or dyno graphs comparing with and without?

Can we use modern ecu examples? Maybe I missed it but what car showed this massive drop with iat drops? First of meth will get you to ambiant temps, it's actually very hard to drop below that. I think your problem is google vs first hand.

What difference does the ecu make? Point was it lost power. Not whether or not new technology can compensate on it's own. That's why for the THIRD time I've said it's not as big of an issue on these cars. The google was for your benefit. I have enough first hand experiance at it. You asked for proof and I gave it to you. Twice. The inlet drop losing power was another link I showed you a few post back. It only dropped 100 degrees down to 82. So it couldn't be mich different than meth.

As for a stock car running 1.12. Do me a favor, take a bone stock car and change NOTHING but make the ltfts run 1.00. Your car will not run any better than stock.

I've already done it. About 3 weeks ago. Next time you see a coyote dyno sheet on here do yourself a favor and take a look at the lines on the graph. Ever notice how some of them are nice and smooth and some are roller coasters? That's the computer correcting AFR because the maf transfer function wasn't correct. I won't google it for you but if you want to call your tuner he can tell you about my grapghs and how they smoothed out once we lined out the O2 transport delays and were able to tune the car correctly in closed loop.

 

[CPRsm]

Lol hold on we need more examples of failure from cars using ecus from over a decade ago.

Don't try to be a smart ass. New ecus don't change physics. They only fix the tune for you. Meth injection without tuning can kill power pure and simple. Giving examples on cars not squirting enough meth to drown and an insect doesn't prove it isn't possible.

 

[Laloosh]

What difference does the ecu make? That's the main point sir, it makes all the difference. You are showing examples from cars over 10-15 years old using very simply ecu systems. Unti you realize this I am wasting my time trying to even discuss this. I have done this on the ms3 and n54 platforms which are identical to reacting meth as the copperhead. Better yet call Cobb and see for yourself, or call Lund to verify what the a above user was told.

 

[Laloosh]

here is an examples of adding a SHIT ton of meth on pump gas tuning to a modern ecu car that uses widebands. Timing was the same, boost was damn near identical. Car picked up power based on cooling alone. Then boost was raised with everything else staying untouched. Car picked up even more power....
Cobb + BMS WW meth kit dyno testing - N54tech.com | BMW N54 N55 135 335 535 Turbo Performance Forum


Here is my car ON THE DYNO, 30 seconds after it was flashed. Car did not know fuel trims, did not know ANYTHING. Car picked up massive power on meth. Once again, modern ecu, not old school stuff. Like i said in this thread, this will not work on something like a c6z or anythign with narrow bands without tuning.
Cobb AP vs. Cp-e STANDBACK - YouTube

On my bmw, I did not even run progressive as it was simply not needed on that car. Simple on off swith at 7psi. Zero flow to over 1000ml instantly. Not tuning changes. No hickups, no stutters, no blowout, none of that. That is the beuty of modern ecus people. The quicker we get away from the old school mentality of premitive technology the better off we will be