Dyno results

[droptopsnake01]

Im not trying to be rude so don't take my post as this but..

This is exactly what I have been preaching here. I know Naz has had great success with his cars on motor but it is not the norm. From what I understand he does many other things on his own that yeild more numbers than the normal.

People try to compare but you can't evenly.

I see this has gone to 4 pages of it could be this it could be that and nobody has said maybe it just ain't gonna make the power. We live in the real world people, if he is such a good tuner then they would have figured it out there.

And before anybody shoots back this type of thread happens all the time with people disappointed with their n/a numbers and nobody can figure out why.

Either way I dont think a n/a build should be so hyped up on here like they always are just b/c its "cool" b/c when it all comes down to it usually the owner will be disappointed in the results.

Either way to the OP.

Since you have a stock shortblock, if you ever plan on building a motor you can put some nice dished pistons in there and throw some boost at it and then watch those numbers b/c w/ those ported heads/cams and intake it just waiting for some PSI'S!!!

Good luck though, and sorry to see the bad results

 

[droptopsnake01]

also just "browsing" through what you have had to do and buy etc would you say you will spend over 5k to do all this?

 

[tmhutch]

Maybe it just ain't gonna make the power. We live in the real world people, if he is such a good tuner then they would have figured it out there.

This type of thread happens all the time with people disappointed with their n/a numbers and nobody can figure out why. Throw some boost at it and then watch those numbers b/c w/ those ported heads/cams and intake it just waiting for some PSI'S!!!

You are correct, people’s expectations are not met in many instances but these DOHC's are a little more complex to build than an old V8. 4 cams to install and time correctly, overzealous knock sensors, sensitive timing and A/F metering require time, diligence and experience to get dialed in.

In this case he clearly ran out of patience timing the cams and the tuner was not in a position to provide a full tune. The OP said they only had time to make a couple tweaks. There is alot of potential still sitting on the table for this combo. OP's goals are not futile.

People have to realize that over half of the entries on the Naturally Aspirated HP List over on Corral are making between 370 - 600 rwhp SAE. That group of people represents a small fraction of the DOHC builds that take place across the country. There are tons more high HP combo's that dont know/care about that list and are not represented.

A naturally aspirated combo requires a well thought out/executed plan with a fairly sophisticated level of mechanical ability. It doesn’t have the luxury of just throwing more boost at it if something isn’t quite right.

A N/A build will make a mechanic out of you. You'll never have to worry about being that guy at the local cruise who stares into space with that blank, confused look when someone asks him what duration cams he runs.

 

[droptopsnake01]

A N/A build will make a mechanic out of you. You'll never have to worry about being that guy at the local cruise who stares into space with that blank, confused look when someone asks him what duration cams he runs.

Well I guess since im not a n/a build im not a mechanic.

And when you ask me the duration of my cams Ill say "I didn't need cams to make over 900rwhp so i dont give a ****"

 

[olgreydog7]

Cobradude, I have no idea what wideband HP used. I ordered a Zeitronix wideband yesterday, so I will be datalogging with that.

Droptop, I think Todd said it all for me! The only thing I am dissapointed in is the dyno sheet. I LOVE how it drives, revs, ect. I live a long ways from a good tuner, so I did a mail order tune, which I think he got spot on. I am having issues with fuel, cam timing, and spark timing. Fuel, I should have bought the damn GT pump in the first place, but I let people talk me out of it. Cams, my fault, I ran out of money for the ModCamponents piece and I ran out of time to do it right with the stock stuff. The spark, well, I'm not going to blame the tuner there. In fact, I'm glad there is timing left in it. Better that than an aggressive first tune that burns a piston. So, I am grateful for that. He can always add timing later. And he will, once I get the fuel pump swapped and get the wideband recording some good data. The only reason I'm glad I got the dyno is that it showed me I had a problem. And now I can fix it.

Once I got some datalogs to my tuner, he did figure it out. Now, once we get the fuel, cams, and timing done and it still doesn't do it, well, we'll go from there. I also haven't done the compression test yet, but I should this week. So some of my power could be going past bad piston rings.

Yes it is harder na, but end the end I will have everything I want out of my motor. It will have great street manners, great throttle response, pull hard to 7k+, and it will be different. For the money I have spent, I could have either built a shortblock or bought a blower, but not both. So, I could have spent the money and made no power or I could have had a ticking timebomb motor. BTW, the only parts that would have been different would have been the cams, $1100, and the intake, $2800, so really all I spent extra on the na side would be $3900. Which might buy a used centri or an Eaton swap. Everything else would have been needed to support the blower anyway. I like to hammer it, so fi on the stock internals wouldn't have been good, even on low boost. This way, I'm making good street power and I'll make alot more when I save up for the shortblock. If I ever decide I want a blower, I could sell some of this stuff to pay for that later. My goal is really only low 12's high 11's, but I really want to open track it, not drag, so the blower just adds weight too. Plus, I'll take off when I floor it instead of turn my tires into smoke ;-)

 

[na svt]

This is exactly what I have been preaching here. I know Naz has had great success with his cars on motor but it is not the norm. From what I understand he does many other things on his own that yeild more numbers than the normal.

I see this has gone to 4 pages of it could be this it could be that and nobody has said maybe it just ain't gonna make the power. We live in the real world people, if he is such a good tuner then they would have figured it out there.

Either way I dont think a n/a build should be so hyped up on here like they always are just b/c its "cool" b/c when it all comes down to it usually the owner will be disappointed in the results.

The same problems can happen in FI builds, especially the ignition and fuel issues. Also, some people just want an n/a engine, not that it's cool, they just don't want to go FI. Furthermore, n/a combos have to be well thought out and most are not; long duration cams are not always the best option contrary to popular belief. Futhermore, there is a lot of money wasted on parts that don't provide good bang for the buck (CAIs, RAIs, ignition coils, TBs, shorty headers, plasma boosters, etc.). Most of time the FR500 cam and intake engines make great power as proven by many people and the lions share of them make anywhere from 380-410rwhp...and are quicker than most FI cars in the 1/4.

Carlos' FR500 combo motors, not taking anything away from him, were nothing special, just a combination of parts that were previously proven to work well together. On the other hand, his BB/Stroker took some planning and rather than do it all himself he, unlike a lot of people, asked questions and got the combo right. He could have made even more power if he had wanted to spin it higher, but the cams were kept kinda mild to prevent the need to spin the crap out of it.

FI combos are not exempt from having cams timing, ignition or fuel issues.

I'm not knocking either method of making power, it's all personal preference.

 

[Nazman]

I see this has gone to 4 pages of it could be this it could be that and nobody has said maybe it just ain't gonna make the power. We live in the real world people, if he is such a good tuner then they would have figured it out there.

And before anybody shoots back this type of thread happens all the time with people disappointed with their n/a numbers and nobody can figure out why.

Either way I dont think a n/a build should be so hyped up on here like they always are just b/c its "cool" b/c when it all comes down to it usually the owner will be disappointed in the results.

Either way to the OP.

Since you have a stock shortblock, if you ever plan on building a motor you can put some nice dished pistons in there and throw some boost at it and then watch those numbers b/c w/ those ported heads/cams and intake it just waiting for some PSI'S!!!

Good luck though, and sorry to see the bad results

His results are not bad due to the combo. Based on dyno and data logs there is something much more than a "tune".

Based on the data available, Ill bet is his cam timing/phasing. There is quite of bit of power left there.

His tune was dialed up at 25* which is normal for a decent NA combo but not on the edge for max power. Which is what you do with any nw combo FI or NA. After everything is sorted, then you go for kill.

I have worked with Don for several years and he is IMHO the best tuner to get a mail order tune from. I have learned tons by talking to him over the phone and email, asking tons of questions and every single advice he has given me has been on the spot correct. If some one has to touch my tunes, there is not one but Don. That's how I feel about him.

If you do a historical search on here, Corral, Mod Fords, and Modular Depot, you will come to find out that FR500 HCI combos on stock short blocks are making anywere from 375-400+RW NA.

I do agree that the trade off of HP vs. $$$ is higher on FI, so the return may not look appealing for everyone and like they say, NA is not for everyone, nor is FI.

You are correct, people’s expectations are not met in many instances but these DOHC's are a little more complex to build than an old V8. 4 cams to install and time correctly, overzealous knock sensors, sensitive timing and A/F metering require time, diligence and experience to get dialed in.

In this case he clearly ran out of patience timing the cams and the tuner was not in a position to provide a full tune. The OP said they only had time to make a couple tweaks. There is alot of potential still sitting on the table for this combo. OP's goals are not futile.

People have to realize that over half of the entries on the Naturally Aspirated HP List over on Corral are making between 370 - 600 rwhp SAE. That group of people represents a small fraction of the DOHC builds that take place across the country. There are tons more high HP combo's that dont know/care about that list and are not represented.

A naturally aspirated combo requires a well thought out/executed plan with a fairly sophisticated level of mechanical ability. It doesn’t have the luxury of just throwing more boost at it if something isn’t quite right.

A N/A build will make a mechanic out of you. You'll never have to worry about being that guy at the local cruise who stares into space with that blank, confused look when someone asks him what duration cams he runs.

Well said Todd.

Well I guess since im not a n/a build im not a mechanic.

And when you ask me the duration of my cams Ill say "I didn't need cams to make over 900rwhp so i dont give a ****"

I dont think that Todd said you are not a mechanic, his statement was wide spread and general.

Also, if I may say...your second statement was not necesary brother....you dont need cams, but you need TWO turbos to do so. Boost is not everything, nor is NA. Its like comparing a Melon to an Apple. Completly two diferent approaches.

Percentage wise, Im willing to bet that of "run of the mill" NA combos are quicker than your "run of the mill" FI cars in a 1/4 mile and dont get me wrong. Im not bias, and I love the two of them.

Naz

 

[na svt]

Percentage wise, Im willing to bet that of "run of the mill" NA combos are quicker than your "run of the mill" FI cars in a 1/4 mile and dont get me wrong. Im not bias, and I love the two of them.Naz

I can't tell ya how many 600rwhp FI cars I've seen get beat by very modest, well setup n/a cars with 2/3s of the hp.

 

[droptopsnake01]

I can't tell ya how many 600rwhp FI cars I've seen get beat by very modest, well setup n/a cars with 2/3s of the hp.

:rollseyes

any why would this be? Because the n/a car has an auto/stall/drag suspension blah blah blah and its outrunning a 6 speed car on 18' radials.

You put the exact same setup in that "600rwhp car that got beat" that was in the underpowered car and see what happens. What im saying is the car didnt win or lose b/c of the power it is making, its the drag car suspension thats under the underpowered car that won the race.

I can't tell you how many 600rwhp FI cars I've seen tear up a very modest setup n/a car with 2/3s the horsepower either.

I should have not even posted, this is why.

Good luck to the OP :beer:

 

[na svt]

any why would this be? Because the n/a car has an auto/stall/drag suspension blah blah blah and its outrunning a 6 speed car on 18' radials.

I should have clarified my point, which was that a modest street n/a combo can go relatively quick on DRs and only with few suspension mods. While a 600rwhp FI car with the same setup will blow away the tires...and there are few 600rwhp street cars with suspensions that can handle the power. The FI car also needs stronger driveline parts. With that, it all comes down to how much you wanna spend.

 

[droptopsnake01]

I should have clarified my point, which was that a modest street n/a combo can go relatively quick on DRs and only with few suspension mods. While a 600rwhp FI car with the same setup will blow away the tires...and there are few 600rwhp street cars with suspensions that can handle the power. The FI car also needs stronger driveline parts. With that, it all comes down to how much you wanna spend.

So your pretty much saying a slower/underpowered car wins by default.

 

[na svt]

So your pretty much saying a slower/underpowered car wins by default.

With FI comes another whole set of issues with the biggest being the spending of more moeny.

 

[olgreydog7]

So your pretty much saying a slower/underpowered car wins by default.

I wouldn't say that necessarily. Even on the track, a loss is a loss, it doesn't matter if you lost traction, got out of the grove, whatever. Droptop, will you beat me with full drag suspension and slicks? Yes, beat isn't even the right word for it. Will I beat you on stock style suspension and radials, not drag radials? Maybe, it would be a driver's race and it would depend on if it was from a dig, roll, whatever. There is more to a car than a dyno sheet. Yes, I envy your dyno sheet, but I don't envy the tires you will burn, the probably $1200+ fuel system, the broken halfshafts or SRA swap, the install headache(I did mine by myself in my garage), and while cool, I'm not so sure that that turbo whine wouldn't get annoying after a while either. I still drive mine daily, and I will keep driving it daily unless I convince the wife we need a third vehicle, not counting the motorcycle and the two we already store. I still don't see why there is so much hate between the na and fi guys. :beer:

 

[b dub]

It's because of na svt's avatar quote......

 

[Orange Stang 04]

Don know's what he is doing, I'm sure you will be hitting the mark you want once you guys get all the issues squared away. I'd love to compare our cars, I spent about the same amount of $$ as you ($3500-$4000) in mine and made 428/387 (tuned by Don ;-) ), but at the cost of extra weight and more heat etc... from the blower and accessories. It would be a fun race. :rockon:

 

[olgreydog7]

Don know's what he is doing, I'm sure you will be hitting the mark you want once you guys get all the issues squared away. I'd love to compare our cars, I spent about the same amount of $$ as you ($3500-$4000) in mine and made 428/387 (tuned by Don ;-) ), but at the cost of extra weight and more heat etc... from the blower and accessories. It would be a fun race. :rockon:

It would be a fun race. I would really like to compare them actually. I had about 70% of the parts for the Eaton swap when I decided to do this. So it would be interesting to see what the difference was. I'm sure you have a really fun car.

 

[Nazman]

Don know's what he is doing, I'm sure you will be hitting the mark you want once you guys get all the issues squared away. I'd love to compare our cars, I spent about the same amount of $$ as you ($3500-$4000) in mine and made 428/387 (tuned by Don ;-) ), but at the cost of extra weight and more heat etc... from the blower and accessories. It would be a fun race. :rockon:

It would be a fun race. I would really like to compare them actually. I had about 70% of the parts for the Eaton swap when I decided to do this. So it would be interesting to see what the difference was. I'm sure you have a really fun car.

My money is on the NA Cobra.

I ran the very much similar combo, FR500 HCI and stock short block with the supporting mods, vs. my good buddy FastlaneCobra 03 Cobra (CAI, mail order tune and CB, stock pulley) and I waked him from any roll speed.

Keep in mind, weight, and few other factors play HUGE in running when the power level is within 50RWHP of each other.

Naz

 

[Orange Stang 04]

My money is on the NA Cobra.

I ran the very much similar combo, FR500 HCI and stock short block with the supporting mods, vs. my good buddy FastlaneCobra 03 Cobra (CAI, mail order tune and CB, stock pulley) and I waked him from any roll speed.

Keep in mind, weight, and few other factors play HUGE in running when the power level is within 50RWHP of each other.

Naz

Blower hater

Would the power-weight ratio of the two tell us a little more? If so, I'd get my car weighed to see which was really the best option (from a power-weight ratio standpoint atleast).

BTW, I'd guess your buddy's Cobra made around 390-400 rwhp while having an iron block, where as mine is making almost 430 rwhp with 4.56 gears and having an aluminum block. I'd say it would be a pretty close race.

 

[vteckiller2000]

Peak power and peak torque doesn't mean shit. When will bench racers get that? Seriously...

 

[1Quick4.6]

I wouldn't say that necessarily. Even on the track, a loss is a loss, it doesn't matter if you lost traction, got out of the grove, whatever. Droptop, will you beat me with full drag suspension and slicks? Yes, beat isn't even the right word for it. Will I beat you on stock style suspension and radials, not drag radials? Maybe, it would be a driver's race and it would depend on if it was from a dig, roll, whatever. There is more to a car than a dyno sheet. Yes, I envy your dyno sheet, but I don't envy the tires you will burn, the probably $1200+ fuel system, the broken halfshafts or SRA swap, the install headache(I did mine by myself in my garage), and while cool, I'm not so sure that that turbo whine wouldn't get annoying after a while either. I still drive mine daily, and I will keep driving it daily unless I convince the wife we need a third vehicle, not counting the motorcycle and the two we already store. I still don't see why there is so much hate between the na and fi guys. :beer:

The hate will always be there between Fi and NA guys , but dont worry the last time i saw ol droptop at the track that wonder car with all that power was running low 11s:burnout:..its so great its for sale