Turbo Help!

[Carson]

I don't think that it's the fact that people don't know what they're talking about.. It's the fact that people will sure as hell argue with someone that has not proven anything that they're trying to prove, or anything that they've said they can build. Show me a FMIC on a Contour with all of the plumbing, and prove that the underhood temps aren't rising like a MOFO! Also, show me some dyno #'s that prove your 400 and 500 HP guestimates that you throw out.

Mark

um I don't think you guys understand
where do you think the heat from ADS exchanger goes?
and if the ADS works which I am sure it does it requires the same amount of air to do the same job
where do you think the heat is going from it

actually if you guys knew more about turbocharging and researched more
you would see
The wastegate will work
The piping is the right size
The heat wont be a problem

When the cars get out there you will see

you guys are arguing with guess of what you think without obviously having the experience of how it works.

you guys keep talking about 400-500 he threw that out there not me I never said anything about it
I have a customer who wants that much out of his setup and thats a different post

 

[Livinsvt]

alot of heat? pressure? what are you saying?
Did you know heat energy is what a turbo uses?
Did you know The radiant temp of mild with ceramic coating is less than 321?
so looks like it would spool faster and keep under hood temp lower

for a v6 2.5l the optimum header size would 1.5" even up to 600hp

and I didn't say thiers would crack what I said was mild is less likely to crack

I never said thats where the wastegate even went but if it does are you sure it wouldn't work?
and how are you sure
have you built and designed over 30 turbo setups in the last couple years?
well I have
putting a wastegate on one bank isn't ideal but it works
we have Mustangs making 400whp with T70 turbos capable 800HP with a Tial 38 on one bank with no surging or spikes at 4psi

If for some reason there is a problem I will change the 400+hp kit design
but for street driving up to 400hp it will work perfectly

and as far as my setup being cheep 321 tubular would cost about $200 more
so I guess they are both cheap huh?

so the heat exchanger isn't blocking air as much as a front mount?
a heat exchanger or intercooler (same thing) work by dispersing heat (BTU's)
if its not doing the same as a IC then its efficiency isn't as good and would result in poor performance but I doubt thats the case
I think you just dont know as much as you should to argue this
which is why you didn't answere what I asked in my post

p.s. plumbing is a piece of cake!

Umm ya I do know how a turbo works, were did that come from :shrug: . I was referring to the extra exhaust plumbing for a turbo, there for extra heat, and of course I am talking about the ADC kit, since that is the only kit out there to reference. The only fresh air the rad receives is from the front opening in the bumper, a proper sized intercooler core and the heat exchanger used in the ADC kit would be way different in sized. The Adc excahnger does not take up that much space at all. To properly place an air/air intercooler, you would place in the best possible place for air flow, correct? The Svt bumper has a good opening, but like I said before no one realy can say for sure how its going to be effected. I would like to see it tried out.

So you said it yourself, running a WG off of one bank is not ideal, so why would you if you didn't have to?

So you can make 321 stainless tubular headers for how much? For headers I would use 304l, its proven to work well before.

I don't understand why your getting defensive, especialy since people have already given you good info that you asked for, but could have searched for yourself.

 

[Carson]

Umm ya I do know how a turbo works, were did that come from :shrug: . I was referring to the extra exhaust plumbing for a turbo, there for extra heat, and of course I am talking about the ADC kit, since that is the only kit out there to reference. The only fresh air the rad receives is from the front opening in the bumper, a proper sized intercooler core and the heat exchanger used in the ADC kit would be way different in sized. The Adc excahnger does not take up that much space at all. To properly place an air/air intercooler, you would place in the best possible place for air flow, correct? The Svt bumper has a good opening, but like I said before no one realy can say for sure how its going to be effected. I would like to see it tried out.

So you said it yourself, running a WG off of one bank is not ideal, so why would you if you didn't have to?

So you can make 321 stainless tubular headers for how much? For headers I would use 304l, its proven to work well before.

I don't understand why your getting defensive, especialy since people have already given you good info that you asked for, but could have searched for yourself.

ok
I misunderstood what you said
I thought you were refering to log style header not radiant heat
in your previous post you showed a picture of piping and implied that it wouldn't be capable of 500HP

You had said how badthe IC would restrict flow through the radiator
How many examples do you have of this problem
I can give hundreds of examples were it didn't cause one
granted they aren't Contours but we have had Focus's with stock cooling systems over 350whp and stock cooling system mustangs over 550whp
both had a larger IC that cover the Radiator even more with no cooling issues

the exchanger on ADC's emits the same amount of heat that a IC would
so the temps going thru the radiator would be the same

there is also room above the IC for airflow

and if know one really knows why would you argue that it can't work
I am not trying to be defensive just questioning the reasoning you guys have about how it would work

again never said thats where the wastegate will go
I just said it would work if it did
You asked a funny question there "why would you do it if you don't have to"
well there are many answeres but think of this why does Ford do the things it does from engineering to production choices
ease of install
keep it away from heat
tolerences
cost in production
If I put it somehwere else I will explain then

material costs to make those headers would be about $200 more if I used that material
I use mild and ceramic coat. IT is Better so thats what I stock and thats what I buy in quantity.

I'm not trying to be defensive but you guys are arguing point that you don't have information on to say I am wrong
not that you don't think it will work but you know it wont

 

[DemonSVT]

1. I beleive Adc's primaires are 1-7/8", which I believe are way to big myself,

2. No one has ever had an issue cracking there headers.

3. How do you expect to control boost, espescialy on a 500hp motor, with the wg running off of one bank?

4. The Svt cooling system works very good, but who knows how it will react with a core blocking it, and added heat from the turbo exhaust.

1. Incorrect.
Not even the 3L headers ADC makes have primaries that large.

Now the POS log style manifolds shown in the other picture I wouldn't use ever. They are stupidly oversized!!! You'd get much better results using stock manifolds like Tom did! We all know his car makes great power on low boost and not even SVT cams. Bigger is NOT better!

2. Exactly. The whole cracking SS is reserved for companies that use low grade and thin SS. That is not an issue at all with the ADC kit.

3. You can't. A design like that would be just assinine.

4. Exactly, again. A FMIC would starve the radiator for airflow. That would be harsh on an NA engine and downright foolish on a boosted one!

 

[DemonSVT]

...to add...

The heat exchanger is small and thin. It only cools the IC coolant to ambient.
It takes up a small footprint of the available area.

A FMIC would be exponentially larger. Matter of fact even one taking up all the usable room would still be hard pressed to make a significant reduction in intake temps for the sacrifice of it being there.
Also to fit one the condenser and likely the P/S cooler would have to be removed.

A FMIC is not a very valid or logical option at all.

Your placement of the wastegate on one bank's up-pipe is very poorly chosen. It will not effectively "waste" all the exhaust. It will lead to bad boost creep and reversion.
I can't even fathom why you'd want to put it there in the first place because it makes no logical sense from an air flow or performance perspective.

I do agree that ceramic coated mild steel in a cost effective option. Nothing wrong with that part of the thinking.
However log style manifolds really suck. Especially oversized ones! The design pictured is much worse then just using modified stock manifolds.

 

[Carson]

1. Incorrect.
Not even the 3L headers ADC makes have primaries that large.

Now the POS log style manifolds shown in the other picture I wouldn't use ever. They are stupidly oversized!!! You'd get much better results using stock manifolds like Tom did! We all know his car makes great power on low boost and not even SVT cams. Bigger is NOT better!

2. Exactly. The whole cracking SS is reserved for companies that use low grade and thin SS. That is not an issue at all with the ADC kit.

3. You can't. A design like that would be just assinine.

4. Exactly, again. A FMIC would starve the radiator for airflow. That would be harsh on an NA engine and downright foolish on a boosted one!

where do you get your info?
the headers in the picture are 1.5" id
log headers work very well
they would retain more heat than the stock ones also

"you can't a design like that would be assinine'
I am not sure what you are refering to

the intercooler again
why do contour owners think they are different from the rest of the turbo world????
what testing have you guys done that makes you think a fmic haults the flow of air?

 

[Carson]

...to add...

""The heat exchanger is small and thin. It only cools the IC coolant to ambient.""
what does a air to air do different?
""It takes up a small footprint of the available area.""
but still transfers the same amount of heat??



""A FMIC would be exponentially larger. Matter of fact even one taking up all the usable room would still be hard pressed to make a significant reduction in intake temps for the sacrifice of it being there.""
what info did you use to calculate this inaccuracy?

""Also to fit one the condenser and likely the P/S cooler would have to be removed.""
not removed but relocated a little

""A FMIC is not a very valid or logical option at all.""
once we dyno the setup on a couple different cars without cooling issues
and I show the difference in inlet out temps will that change your mind?

""Your placement of the wastegate on one bank's up-pipe is very poorly chosen. It will not effectively "waste" all the exhaust. It will lead to bad boost creep and reversion.
I can't even fathom why you'd want to put it there in the first place because it makes no logical sense from an air flow or performance perspective.""

again never said thats where it was going

""I do agree that ceramic coated mild steel in a cost effective option. Nothing wrong with that part of the thinking.
However log style manifolds really suck. Especially oversized ones! The design pictured is much worse then just using modified stock manifolds.""


It will also spool faster and retain more heat
what has lead you to believe log manifolds are so bad?
using a 4cyl as a example
a log styl over a tubular spooled a noticable 300rpms faster and compared to a egual length tubular the difference was less noticable but it retained almost 250 degrees more heat and made 20whp more to 400whp on a stock motor SR20

 

[Livinsvt]

Hey Demon what size are the primiares in the Adc kit, I could have swore they were that big. I know Toms "proto" set were 2" primaires . But he still did make power. I personaly believe 1.5" would be the right size, especialy on a oval port.

Oh just as a heads up, the id on weld els I have meaured were 1.65, though specificly stamped 1.5", this was on every peice I have seen from numerous companies.

We all know log style manifolds can make power, there are numerous examples out there, but I beleive with that design your losing out, usualy on a log style there would be a turbo mounted right to a manifold. But since this is a single v6 style, your pulses are getting mixed and losing velocity, which is so bad except it now has to travel down "x" amount of pipe were it will lose more (not drastic) velocity than merge. Top end power will lose out, its all about making the most power with the least amount of boost required, you will have to up the boost to overcome the flaws with the design. Plus how much do you charge for the manifolds?

Oh and Adc did make a set of log style manifolds, I have a picture laying around somewere, but the design had the pipe exiting out the end of the manifold, much better.

I beleive Sr20's are 4cyl, correct? So mounting the turbo on the header is an option. No comparison.

We love being proven wrong(seriously), so get to it.

 

[Carson]

Hey Demon what size are the primiares in the Adc kit, I could have swore they were that big. I know Toms "proto" set were 2" primaires . But he still did make power. I personaly believe 1.5" would be the right size, especialy on a oval port.

Oh just as a heads up, the id on weld els I have meaured were 1.65, though specificly stamped 1.5", this was on every peice I have seen from numerous companies.

We all know log style manifolds can make power, there are numerous examples out there, but I beleive with that design your losing out, usualy on a log style there would be a turbo mounted right to a manifold. But since this is a single v6 style, your pulses are getting mixed and losing velocity, which is so bad except it now has to travel down "x" amount of pipe were it will lose more (not drastic) velocity than merge. Top end power will lose out, its all about making the most power with the least amount of boost required, you will have to up the boost to overcome the flaws with the design. Plus how much do you charge for the manifolds?

Oh and Adc did make a set of log style manifolds, I have a picture laying around somewere, but the design had the pipe exiting out the end of the manifold, much better.

I beleive Sr20's are 4cyl, correct? So mounting the turbo on the header is an option. No comparison.

We love being proven wrong(seriously), so get to it.

I agree with the velocity theory but heat energy is what a turbo uses not velocity
I disagree with the end being better the closer you get to the middle the better but to be honest it probably won't make a difference

I used this same size on my 97 2v car that has longer piping before the turbo
same 2" crossover and made 525whp at 12psi with unported heads stock intake with a forged bottom end
when I turned it up to 14psi
I ran 11.0 at 130mph with a 3400# car on drag radials
so I think it will still be able to easily get me 500 if the car would support it
but...
300-350 is the 3.0 sweetspot and 250 on a 2.5 so on %90 of the cdw27 guys out there this kit would work awesome

as you said
proof is in the pudding

I will probably sell those headers for $600 a pair with v-band connection
if someone thinks thats to much I will sell the parts by themselves also

 

[DemonSVT]

1. the headers in the picture are 1.5" id
2. log headers work very well they would retain more heat than the stock ones also

3. "you can't a design like that would be assinine'
I am not sure what you are refering to

4. why do contour owners think they are different from the rest of the turbo world????
what testing have you guys done that makes you think a fmic haults the flow of air?

1. That's impossible considering their size compared to the stock manifold flange. The look at least 2" in diameter. Maybe larger.

BTW - 1.5" = 38mm

Untouched stock 2.5L outlets are at least 46mm wide. (1.81")

Don't you think 1.5" would be stupid to use if the ports are 1.81" wide??? :loser:

2. BS. Stock manifolds are clamshell SS. They will retain heat far better then any material non-wrapped header.
Not only that they have a better flow design then POS log manifolds. Velocity may not be "paramount" but it does get the exhaust gas to the turbine quicker which means less time to cool down. 0 for 2

3. The placement of a waste gate in just one bank's up-pipe. It is pure asinine! 'nuff said.

4. I never said "halts" However the only source for airflow to the radiator is the small entry in the bumper. Airflow is so scarce to the radiator that Ford went out of their way to make extra air deflector to route air into the radiator.

Adding an IC which both covers that small opening and then considering it's thickness will drastically reduce the airflow through the radiator and it's ability to cool. That could be deadly on a boosted engine.

Again this is just not a viable option when using common sense.

 

[DemonSVT]

1. but still transfers the same amount of heat??

2. ""A FMIC would be exponentially larger.""
what info did you use to calculate this inaccuracy?

3. ""Also to fit one the condenser and likely the P/S cooler would have to be removed.""
not removed but relocated a little

4. ""A FMIC is not a very valid or logical option at all.""
once we dyno the setup on a couple different cars without cooling issues
and I show the difference in inlet out temps will that change your mind?

1. I see you just don't understand. It's AIRFLOW to the radiator that is the main concern!!!

2. So you plan to use an FMIC the size of a small coolant heat exchanger. Brilliant...
A FMIC with any appreciable surface area would easily take up the small available area. Plus you'd still be stuck with a "small" FMIC.

Have you ever had the front end apart???

3. The condensor would have to go no matter what. The combination of the A/C lines and Condensor itself leave no room for anything larger then a small heat exchanger in that area.

4. Oh yeah because a dyno shows how well a FMIC works. Even with a larger 10HP fan the airflow through a FMIC is only about low to moderate (mph) speed.

I never said a FMIC was bad. It is quite the contrary with a properly sized and located FMIC.
However with the space provided, associated work, and necessary losses to make it work it is just not a logical option to use at all.

 

[Carson]

""1. That's impossible considering their size compared to the stock manifold flange. The look at least 2" in diameter. Maybe larger.""
well actual ID is 1.60"
wall thinckness of schedule 40 .160"
that equals a total of 1.92"
impossible??"""

""BTW - 1.5" = 38mm""
right? well actually 1.496"

""Untouched stock 2.5L outlets are at least 46mm wide. (1.81")

Don't you think 1.5" would be stupid to use if the ports are 1.81" wide???""

yes but don't you think I would oval the material to match??
or are you still looking at the picture of something that I didn't post and doesn't really represent what I am doing??
:loser: yes you are

""2. BS. Stock manifolds are clamshell SS. They will retain heat far better then any material non-wrapped header.
Not only that they have a better flow design then POS log manifolds. Velocity may not be "paramount" but it does get the exhaust gas to the turbine quicker which means less time to cool down. 0 for 2""

so you are saying that the log style stock manifold that is 16g will hold more heat than a .160" wall carbon steel part that has been ceramic coated inside and out?
wrong.

""3. The placement of a waste gate in just one bank's up-pipe. It is pure asinine! 'nuff said.""
I am sorry that it works
If it ends up that way on the kit I guess you will have to complain

""4. I never said "halts" However the only source for airflow to the radiator is the small entry in the bumper. Airflow is so scarce to the radiator that Ford went out of their way to make extra air deflector to route air into the radiator.""

This really isn't true the front directed air coming in from facia
But its not the only air moving through the core
Do you realize air is pulled through the entire core when the fans come on
theres no sealed plate on the radiator keeping air from being pulled through
do you think its air tite or something
here are some examples of the same thing you speak of

Eclipse and Talons' same single air inlet almost all have a huge front mount infront of the radiator

MKIV Supra HUGE front mounts single low air inlet

Dodge conquest
You know at that dame thing the only air going in ran through that air choking intercooler

I can find pics and post them if this is still confusing

also here is a test
go stuff towels "alot more restrictive than a IC" in the front facia opening and let it idle
I will bet you a free turbo kit when the fans kick on they still move are through the radiator "as in you can put your hand by the fans and feel the breeze"
I will also bet you the car doesn't over heat

"""Adding an IC which both covers that small opening and then considering it's thickness will drastically reduce the airflow through the radiator and it's ability to cool. That could be deadly on a boosted engine.""" :read:

""Again this is just not a viable option when using common sense.""

I'm givin her all she's got we just can't do it! :thumbsup:

 

[Carson]

""DemonSVT]1. I see you just don't understand. It's AIRFLOW to the radiator that is the main concern!!!""
and it will still cool the motor fine
you will see

""2. So you plan to use an FMIC the size of a small coolant heat exchanger. Brilliant... "
:read:

no but if they water cooled setup and the air to air setup have the same effectiveness they will disperse the same amount of heat


""A FMIC with any appreciable surface area would easily take up the small available area. Plus you'd still be stuck with a "small" FMIC.""

yes 24x6x2.5 core only enough for 400whp
the bigger one will be 3" thick good for the 500whp

one of the first kits I ever made used a 16x6x2.25 intercooler it made 320whp

""Have you ever had the front end apart???""
at least five of them

""3. The condensor would have to go no matter what. The combination of the A/C lines and Condensor itself leave no room for anything larger then a small heat exchanger in that area.""

no just moved a little
for the rest read above

""4. Oh yeah because a dyno shows how well a FMIC works. Even with a larger 10HP fan the airflow through a FMIC is only about low to moderate (mph) speed.""
actually the dyno would not do either a air-water or a air-air justice both once heat soaked would make more on the street
thats why you have down time between pulls it takes a few minutes to heatsoak the core as well as to cool it down

""I never said a FMIC was bad. It is quite the contrary with a properly sized and located FMIC.
However with the space provided, associated work, and necessary losses to make it work it is just not a logical option to use at all.""
Time will tell

believe it or not in times past these little bitch sessons from enthusiasts have been very helpful in kit developement
They get all the concerns out and sometimes even spark new ways to design or develope something
I also feel it lets the novice or beginer learn alot of how stuff works and options they may have

 

[DemonSVT]

1. so you are saying that the log style stock manifold that is 16g will hold more heat than a .160" wall carbon steel part that has been ceramic coated inside and out?
wrong.

2. The placement of a waste gate in just one bank's up-pipe. It is pure asinine! 'nuff said.""
I am sorry that it works
If it ends up that way on the kit I guess you will have to complain

3. This really isn't true the front directed air coming in from facia
But its not the only air moving through the core
Do you realize air is pulled through the entire core when the fans come on
theres no sealed plate on the radiator keeping air from being pulled through
do you think its air tite or something
here are some examples of the same thing you speak of
Eclipse and Talons' same single air inlet almost all have a huge front mount infront of the radiator
Conquest/Starion
You know at that dame thing the only air going in ran through that air choking intercooler

~~~I can find pics and post them if this is still confusing~~~

also here is a test
go stuff towels "alot more restrictive than a IC" in the front facia opening and let it idle
I will bet you a free turbo kit when the fans kick on they still move are through the radiator "as in you can put your hand by the fans and feel the breeze"
I will also bet you the car doesn't over heat

1. The stock manifold is multilayer. Cast steel (much thicker then mere 16g) surrounded by ceramic packing and them SS clamshell overlays. The outer SS clamshell could be that 16g thickness you mentioned.

Either way they retain heat exceptionally.

2. Wasting the exhaust flow with just one bank will cause that bank to have significantly less restriction then the other. That means under boost you will not be able to tune the banks equally. One will be very restricted by "powering" the turbine while the other just free flows out the wastegate! There is NO WAY around that.

Also since the turbo is running off just the exhaust energy of one bank once the wastegate is open any extra exhaust gas the turbo can't use will try to back flow down the opposite up-pipe to get to the wastegate. This is where the reversion comes from. Again VERY bad for the turbine and efficiency of the setup.

That placement of the wastegate is just terrible for many reasons. I just mentioned 2 of the greatest reasons.

3. Both the DSM and Conquest have additional airflow inlets above the lower fascia area just to feed the radiator. I know. I owned both. I have pictures if you don't believe me.
Also the stock DSM IC was a small side mount IC.
The StarQuest did have a large FMIC but you have to remember it was purposely installed at an angle and the opening in the lower fascia was HUGE. Larger then the FMIC. Plus both had the extra air inlets.

So you are wrong in your statements on all those vehicles.

If you want to post pics then it will only support my stance. Matter of fact you can go to my site and see pictures of a Conquest.

4. An idle test is plain worthless. Try that test under load! Especially when you are running boost!! (i.e. hotter IAT) Then get back to me. I've already done it on several cars including this platform.


You seem to post like you are the only one that knows anything about turbo setups or this platform when in fact most of your shown designs and posted statements are bad or just plain wrong.

Maybe you should just build this system and then come back with pictures and hard data. At that point you might be given a little more credence into anything you say.

Posting you are going to do this and that can be done is not going to change anything. Actually doing it will. Go do it...

 

[beyondloadedSE]

Posting you are going to do this and that can be done is not going to change anything. Actually doing it will. Go do it...

agreed...post pics of the FMI with all neccessary plumbing fabbed up while still retaining the stock radiator, AC condensor, and allowing enough ground clearance.

 

[Carson]

""

1. The stock manifold is multilayer. Cast steel (much thicker then mere 16g) surrounded by ceramic packing and them SS clamshell overlays. The outer SS clamshell could be that 16g thickness you mentioned.

Either way they retain heat exceptionally.""

I have cut them apart they are 16g single layer
are you talking about heatsheilds maybe?

the stock header is a log header

They will retain heat inside the runners decent but not as good as the log with the coating

""2. Wasting the exhaust flow with just one bank will cause that bank to have significantly less restriction then the other. That means under boost you will not be able to tune the banks equally. One will be very restricted by "powering" the turbine while the other just free flows out the wastegate! There is NO WAY around that.""

This isn't true both banks combine before the turbo which makes both banks have equal backpressure. Although I agree with the earlier statement of reversion through that pipe but it wont react the way you explained.
when the wastgate close the air will instantly flow to the path of least resistance. Again we use this on our mustang setups and it works flawless for 3 years.

""Also since the turbo is running off just the exhaust energy of one bank once the wastegate is open any extra exhaust gas the turbo can't use will try to back flow down the opposite up-pipe to get to the wastegate. This is where the reversion comes from. Again VERY bad for the turbine and efficiency of the setup.""

well yes except if the air is bypassing out the wastegate that would mean your are at desired boost level just as you would if it was where ADC's is
and it wouldn't bypass any more or less to be there

""That placement of the wastegate is just terrible for many reasons. I just mentioned 2 of the greatest reasons.""

again I would like to repeat what I have said several times in this thread
I never said it was even going there!!!!!!!!!!!!
If it does complain then!!!!!!!!

""3. Both the DSM and Conquest have additional airflow inlets above the lower fascia area just to feed the radiator. I know. I owned both. I have pictures if you don't believe me.""
The Conquest has a very small opening and a 2nd gen dsm has none bumper cover goes from hood to the lower opening

""Also the stock DSM IC was a small side mount IC.
The StarQuest did have a large FMIC but you have to remember it was purposely installed at an angle and the opening in the lower fascia was HUGE. Larger then the FMIC. Plus both had the extra air inlets.""

well since I was talking about the upgrade FMIC that everyone puts on the dsm's not the stock side mount also the extra inlets on the sides
are blocked from the front with plastic guards
The conquest was a bigger opening

""So you are wrong in your statements on all those vehicles.""

well for the Conquest the air pulled through the radiator would be very comparible mainly because the radiator on the contour is more efficient and the fans are considrably better
on the DSM NO I am exactly right



""4. An idle test is plain worthless. Try that test under load! Especially when you are running boost!! (i.e. hotter IAT) Then get back to me. I've already done it on several cars including this platform.""

you mean you have put a IC on the Contour and measure increased in the data stream in the computer as well as data log IAT and underhood?
If you haven't then you dont really know
If you have send me the test data I will look into it


""You seem to post like you are the only one that knows anything about turbo setups or this platform when in fact most of your shown designs and posted statements are bad or just plain wrong.""

Go to a turbo board like TM or Turbo Rides and post what you have said here and see what is said. I am not trying to act like a know it all you are the one talking about how it won't work and that is assinine etc...

""Maybe you should just build this system and then come back with pictures and hard data. At that point you might be given a little more credence into anything you say.""

I understand and I will

""Posting you are going to do this and that can be done is not going to change anything. Actually doing it will. Go do it..""

In process

 

[chknhwk]

Is the cooling system on the Contour/Cougar that shity I mean I am sure we have all seen FMIC on 100's of car. How many posts have you seen about "My damn IC is causing my car to overheat"

You don't because t doesn't cause that problem

That's absolute bullshit. I've seen several examples of cars overheating due to inadequate airflow to the radiator due to a larger than required FMIC.

so the heat exchanger isn't blocking air as much as a front mount?
a heat exchanger or intercooler (same thing) work by dispersing heat (BTU's)
if its not doing the same as a IC then its efficiency isn't as good and would result in poor performance but I doubt thats the case

You ARE aware that the ADC kit uses a HEAT EXCHANGER, i.e. a tube/fine water to air heat exchanger not an intercooler? By design they are more efficient (given the same cross section) due to the higher specific heat capacity of water AND the fact that the cooling mediums temperature can be brought to much lower than ambient air temperature?

You had said how badthe IC would restrict flow through the radiator
How many examples do you have of this problem
I can give hundreds of examples were it didn't cause one
granted they aren't Contours but we have had Focus's with stock cooling systems over 350whp and stock cooling system mustangs over 550whp
both had a larger IC that cover the Radiator even more with no cooling issues
the exchanger on ADC's emits the same amount of heat that a IC would
so the temps going thru the radiator would be the same
there is also room above the IC for airflow
and if know one really knows why would you argue that it can't work
I am not trying to be defensive just questioning the reasoning you guys have about how it would work

I have more than one example and that is one too many. Your philosophy of 'since it works on every other car it will work on this one too' is ri****ulous. Ninety percent of the problems with the Ford modular engines was this same philosophy and applying principles that caused problems! It's the same thing here, sometimes you have to reinvent the wheel.

That is also one made at ITS almost 2yrs ago
Have you seen the one from Forced Fabrication

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't ITS one of the big companies that fu[ked over a lot of the Mustang communities with shitty components and shittier service, ASSuming you even got a kit? ITS and Incon both come to mind.

You had said how badthe IC would restrict flow through the radiator
How many examples do you have of this problem
I can give hundreds of examples were it didn't cause one

So you're basically going to guarantee me that my car will not overheat when I take it to Mid-Ohio, VIR, Watkins Glen, etc? You going to pay to rebuild my engine everytime it overheats and blows up? Sweet, maybe then I will get it.

 

[Carson]

That's absolute bullshit. I've seen several examples of cars overheating due to inadequate airflow to the radiator due to a larger than required FMIC.

could you give example I haven't ever seen a issue with this



You ARE aware that the ADC kit uses a HEAT EXCHANGER, i.e. a tube/fine water to air heat exchanger not an intercooler? By design they are more efficient (given the same cross section) due to the higher specific heat capacity of water AND the fact that the cooling mediums temperature can be brought to much lower than ambient air temperature?

If you look at that I am asking a question because I wasn't sure what he was saying
also you missed what I was trying to explain
For the heat exchanger to be equally effecient(we both know air to water is more eficient) it will disperse the same amount of heat increase from the ambient flowing across the fins


I have more than one example and that is one too many. Your philosophy of 'since it works on every other car it will work on this one too' is ri****ulous. Ninety percent of the problems with the Ford modular engines was this same philosophy and applying principles that caused problems! It's the same thing here, sometimes you have to reinvent the wheel.

Correct. But I was refering to the wastegate and piping size question not the motor. If those same size manifolds and pipe will make 600whp were is the logic that they CAN'T produce 350 on the street?


Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't ITS one of the big companies that fu[ked over a lot of the Mustang communities with shitty components and shittier service, ASSuming you even got a kit? ITS and Incon both come to mind.

acually ITS has very few customer problems for what they sold and shipped compared to most companies exspecially ones like TDC and Incon
Pretty sure it was less than 10 people. Not that thats good but Incon and TDC had 50+ each


So you're basically going to guarantee me that my car will not overheat when I take it to Mid-Ohio, VIR, Watkins Glen, etc? You going to pay to rebuild my engine everytime it overheats and blows up? Sweet, maybe then I will get it.

at 350whp sure
I will test it before it goes anyways to make sure its right.
would you roadrace the car and not upgrade the cooling system after doubling the HP?

 

[Livinsvt]

I agree with the velocity theory but heat energy is what a turbo uses not velocity
I disagree with the end being better the closer you get to the middle the better but to be honest it probably won't make a difference

But how is the heat suppose to get to the turbo if its flow is interrupted and not adequate(sp). Flow is still key, as well as retaining heat.

I will probably sell those headers for $600 a pair with v-band connection
if someone thinks thats to much I will sell the parts by themselves also

I beleive you have charged much higher for a set of those at least once before. :bash:


I was under the car looking around a to see if a fmic is possible, at least one to support 500 motor hp, which is close to what the big dogs are running. I would say its close, removing the A.C for sure will free up room for plumbing, but I don't see it giving much advantange in the way of core placement. It would be good for less restriction in front of the rad. But one thing I did notice was how little the rad protrudes into the opening of the Svt bumper, I know the air dam is there to direct air, buts its not a definite direction. So how much is that air helping out? Anybody get out there yet and stuff rags or cardboard in there svt opening and monitor the ect's? I would do it myself but the car is out of commission, plus its like 15 degrees out.

 

[Carson]

""Livinsvt]But how is the heat suppose to get to the turbo if its flow is interrupted and not adequate(sp). Flow is still key, as well as retaining heat.""

no flow isn't youre biggest restriction will still be the turbo

it would be like running to a revolving door only to wait in line and be outa breath



""I beleive you have charged much higher for a set of those at least once before. :bash:""

yes a couple times but the flanges aren't machine cut by a mill and outsourced
anything thats not made and is a special order would cost more
but know we have the flanges cut 100 at a time
thats why we will sell the parts if someone wants to make thier own


"" I was under the car looking around a to see if a fmic is possible, at least one to support 500 motor hp, which is close to what the big dogs are running. I would say its close, removing the A.C for sure will free up room for plumbing, but I don't see it giving much advantange in the way of core placement. It would be good for less restriction in front of the rad. But one thing I did notice was how little the rad protrudes into the opening of the Svt bumper, I know the air dam is there to direct air, buts its not a definite direction. So how much is that air helping out? Anybody get out there yet and stuff rags or cardboard in there svt opening and monitor the ect's? I would do it myself but the car is out of commission, plus its like 15 degrees out.""

yes some one do it