Terminator piston damage (pic)

05 Roush

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Wow, that sucks. The article I posted now doesn't allow me access for some reason. Here's the detonation detector article:

DIY Detonation Detector - Mk II

Way back in October 1999, AutoSpeed ran an article on building your own detonation detector. For reasons which we'd given in a previous article ["DIY Detonation Detection - Part 1"] - reasons which are still just as valid today - the best DIY detonation detector is an audio system that allows the engine tuner to listen to the noises that the engine is making. The detector that we then gave instructions on building was based on a commercial product available from Dick Smith Electronics called the Whisper 2000. This unit - pictured here after modification - was a type of hearing aid dressed up to look like a Walkman. With some minor mods (involving relocating its microphone to a clip clamped to the engine) it worked very well as a detonation detector - however, not long after that article was written, Dick Smith dropped the product from their shelves.

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And ever since, we've been receiving requests for an alternative.

So here it is - our new DIY Detonation Detector, Mark II.

Unfortunately it is fiddlier to make than the old design, because no off-the-shelf product is used as its basis. However, if you're even half familiar with soldering and electronic components, you shouldn't have any difficulty building it.

1353_3mg.jpg


And this design does have several advantages over the old one. Firstly, it uses decent quality 'bud' style earphones, rather than lightweight headphones. Most professional tuners prefer bud earphones in this application because they usually combine them with noise-reducing earmuffs worn over the top of the earphones. That way, pretty well all the noise reaching the ears is through the earphones and so is from the engine-mounted microphone.

The other advantage is that the new design has both less distortion and better sensitivity.

In fact, while you can turn down the volume so that even loud noises are only a whisper, at the quiet end of things you can hear sounds that you simply never normally would be able to. We'll give you an example - by attaching the clip to the sump plug and turning up the sensitivity, you can actually hear the oil flowing back to the sump after the engine has been switched off!

The Parts

The basis of the system is the 0.5W Amplifier Module from Dick Smith Electronics (cat no K5604), which costs AUS$8.25. (Note that this same kit is also available from Jaycar Electronics - cat no KC-5152 at only AUS$6.70).

In addition to the kit, you will need these parts, which should be easily available worldwide:

Piezo transducer (eg Dick Smith L7021, Jaycar AB3440)
Good quality bud-style earphones
10K potentiometer and knob
3 metre length of twin-core shielded microphone cable
In-line stereo socket to suit the earphone plug
On/off switch
9V battery clip and 9V battery
Box
This lot should come in under AUS$30, and even if you run a sturdier metal box rather than the more common plastic item, it will still be well under $40.

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Making It

The first step is to assemble the PC board of the amplifier kit.

Use a multimeter to measure the resistance of the two resistors so that you know which one is which. Also, make very sure that you get the polarity of the three round capacitors the right way around (the negative side is indicated by a line of 'minus' symbols down the body), and put the chip in with the correct orientation (the notch shows which end is which).

1353_6mg.jpg


Note that there are two changes to the supplied assembly instructions - leave out the 1 kilo-ohm resistor and replace it with a wire link. This increases the gain of the amplifier. The other change is to leave out the trimpot - we'll be using a bigger external pot instead.

So once you have done this, the PCB should look like this.

1353_5mg.jpg


The next step is to solder the wires from the 9V battery clip into place, with the black wire from the clip going to one of the normally open switch terminals, the other side of the switch going to the Ground PCB pin, and the red wire from the battery clip going straight to the Positive power pin. This is the power on/off switch.

Solder some insulated wires to the three spots on the PCB where the trimpot was supposed to go, and then solder the other ends of these to the new pot that you purchased. The centre wire from the PCB spot goes to the centre terminal on the new pot, with the other wires going either way around. This pot is the volume control.

Next you'll need to connect the earphones. There are two approaches - the more elegant way is to install a socket in the box that the earphones plug into. Or, you can use an inline plug, which is what we chose to do. Note that although the stereo earphones have three connections (right channel, left channel, ground), we use the earphones in mono. This means that the two conductors at the top of the plug (the tip and first ring down from the tip) get connected together, with the base of the plug forming the other wire.

1353_7mg.jpg


But there's something missing, you're all saying. Where's the microphone? Well in fact with we trialled a number of different microphones before picking on one which gave the best results overall. As the parts list shows, this is a piezo transducer. Not that it's not the same as a piezo buzzer - instead as the Jaycar catalog states, "This is an electro-acoustic transducer which contains no electronics and will transform AC voltages to sound pressure waves. It will also generate an AC voltage across its terminals when stimulated with a sound pressure wave." It's the latter function that we use it for here.

The transducer is glued facedown inside the arm of a battery clip, as shown here. The cable ties hold it firmly in place as the glue dries.

1353_8mg.jpg



The assembly can then be covered in heatshrink, with an extra tie used as here to give the cord even more security.

The twin-core microphone cable each has a conductor soldered to the two terminals on the transducer, while back at the PCB these are connected (either way around) to the input and the ground. The braided copper sheath can be soldered to the ground terminal at the PCB, while at the transducer end the braid can be cut off short - and not soldered to anything. The braid acts as a shield, stopping electrical noise getting into the system.

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Using It
Using the device is very simple. You simply clip to the microphone to whatever you are interested in listening to. Noises are transmitted through the metalwork directly to the clip and microphone, making the instrument extremely sensitive. To detect detonation, the clip is best placed directly on the block, in the type of place that the factory knock sensors are positioned - no surprise there! Adjust the volume control to give a comfortable loudness level, and sit back and listen. Over the clatter of pistons, valve gear, explosions and gearbox whines, detonation sounds like a sharp "splat!, splat!".

Note that you'll be hearing lots of noises other than detonation - don't expect just to hear detonation isolated from everything else. It's simply not that easy. Instead, use your brain and ears as the 'filter', discarding the normal sounds and waiting for something that's abnormal.

Depending on the location of the microphone clip, additionally gearbox noises, injector clicking, suspension clunks, turbo whistling - the whole lot can be individually identified and problems isolated.


1353_10mg.jpg


Note that it's best to listen from the passenger seat while someone else drives the car - that way, the driver can still hear emergency vehicles and concentrate on driving, not listening to strange sounds.

Contacts:
Dick Smith Electronics
http://www.dse.com.au

Jaycar Electronics
http://www.jaycar.com.au
 

Emmerson_Biggins

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Thanks for the nifty info from down under.

I think I'll spare myself the science project and just buy an MSD knock alert if I plan on running on the ragged edge.

And once again, just in case you missed it above

The scuffing is not caused by detonation!!!!
 

Grey03Cobra

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evil04cobra said:
Thanks for the nifty info from down under.

I think I'll spare myself the science project and just buy an MSD knock alert if I plan on running on the ragged edge.

And once again, just in case you missed it above

The scuffing is not caused by detonation!!!!

Out of curiosity, because I honestly am not sure, but isn't detonation caused by high heat? I figured since high heat is what melted the teflon off my pistons and caused the subsequent damage, that detonation may have also occured.

The only signs of detonation was the end of one of my sparkplugs (#1 plug) was gone (the small curved peice of metal on the very end). The guy working on the car said it had vaporized.
 
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05 Roush

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Grey03Cobra said:
Out of curiosity, because I honestly am not sure, but isn't detonation caused by high heat? I figured since high heat is what melted the teflon off my pistons and caused the susequent damage, that detonation may have also occured.

The only signs of detonation was the end of one of my sparkplugs (#1 plug) was gone (the small curved peice of metal on the very end). The guy working on the car said it had vaporized.

Ding ding! We have a winner. Detonation is the number 1 cause of piston damage.

As for scuffing, check this out:

http://www.streetrodstuff.com/Articles/Engine/Detonation/Page_3.php

EDIT: Here's the first page of the article. It's very informative:

http://www.streetrodstuff.com/Articles/Engine/Detonation/index.php
 
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05 Roush

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Here's one of the more interesting excerpts from the article:


The other technique is a little more subtle but usable if attention is paid to EGT (Exhaust Gas Temperature). Detonation will actually cause EGTs to drop. This behavior has fooled a lot of people because they will watch the EGT and think that it is in a low enough range to be safe, the only reason it is low is because the engine is detonating.

The only way you know what is actually happening is to be very familiar with your specific engine EGT readings as calibrations and probe locations vary. If, for example, you normally run 1500 degrees at a given MAP setting and you suddenly see 1125 after picking up a fresh load of fuel you should be alert to possible or incipient detonation. Any drop from normal EGT should be reason for concern. Using the "Tin Ear" during the early test stage and watching the EGT very carefully, other than just plain listening with your ear without any augmentation, is the only way to identify detonation. The good thing is, most engines will live with a fairly high level of detonation for some period of time. It is not an instantaneous type failure.

 

05 Roush

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Hmmm... Perhaps it's not detonation after all. The plot thickens:

Consider the Northstar engine. If you do a full throttle 0-60 blast, the engine will likely run up to 6000 RPM at a 11.5:1 or 12:1 air fuel ratio. But under sustained load, at about 20 seconds, that air fuel ratio is richened up by the PCM to about 10:1. That is done to keep the spark plugs cool, as well as the piston crowns cool. That richness is necessary if you are running under continuous WOT load. A slight penalty in horsepower and fuel economy is the result. To get the maximum acceleration out of the engine, you can actually lean it out, but under full load, it has to go back to rich. Higher specific output engines are much more sensitive to pre-ignition damage because they are turning more RPM, they are generating a lot more heat and they are burning more fuel. Plugs have a tendency to get hot at that high specific output and reaction time to damage is minimal.



:read:
 

05 Roush

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Hehe....

Check out page 8 of the article.

Detonation induced pre-ignition. The engine starts to detonate. The plug tip gets too hot. Wham. Buh-bye pistons. :eek:
 

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After now hearing that Grey03's plugs were screwed, Im thinking that detonation may have been part of it, if not, just EXTREME high heat. I was talking to HBH and was asking about all these cars that have failing pistons and he contributed it to mainly bad tunes. How many are getting thier AFs from the tailpipe? How many from bungs after the cat? How many from bungs b4 the cats but on a dyno and not while driving, maybe dyno it in 5th? When my freind threw a 150 shot at his S10, it ran crazy, but it was eating his plugs up, with only some detonation. You cant always hear detonation, especially maybe with all the engine noise and wind at 160 MPH.

My truck is SCed... when I first started tuning it, messing with the FMU, and pulling out timing with the crane ign, I was getting some extreme detonation till I got it right. But I droped in a 180 stat, got the fuel right etc. After I lost my rod bearing (From the 128,000 miles on it and making 400+ HP on a stock motor) I pulled the motor down, and found NO signs of detonation at all, no cracked lands or anything.

Could it be that the blow by, at these speeds is so hot that it eats off that coating and then at that point you lose the pistons?? This may be helped along by slightly less than perfect cooling around particular cylinders BUT, Is that really the problem, or the fact that its just not getting enough fuel. Maybe Ford did not tune it well enough even from the factory for 160 MPH runs?
 

05 Roush

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Blak92 said:
Could it be that the blow by, at these speeds is so hot that it eats off that coating and then at that point you lose the pistons?? This may be helped along by slightly less than perfect cooling around particular cylinders BUT, Is that really the problem, or the fact that its just not getting enough fuel. Maybe Ford did not tune it well enough even from the factory for 160 MPH runs?

Absolutely. The combustion temps get crazy hot with high boost and lean A/F. Advance the timing and now you're really asking for it! Ford tuned it just right for extended WOT runs with piggy rich tunes.

Detonation does some nasty morse code on piston heads, and that alone can chip teflon off of the surface.
 

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PlatinumCobra said:
Ford tuned it just right for extended WOT runs with piggy rich tunes.

If that were true though, what about the few cars that lost pistons with completely stock cars, there are a few of those right?
 

Emmerson_Biggins

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PlatinumCobra said:
Absolutely. The combustion temps get crazy hot with high boost and lean A/F. Advance the timing and now you're really asking for it! Ford tuned it just right for extended WOT runs with piggy rich tunes.

Detonation does some nasty morse code on piston heads, and that alone can chip teflon off of the surface.

Detonation is NOT going to knock teflon off of a piston skirt. The clearance between the pistons and cylinder block is just too tight and that is causing the scuffing issue along with excessive heat. The plug burned up I noticed, but it vaporized. The heat was intense, but I do not feel that detonation was the cause simply because there is no noticable crown damage and the bearings were OK.

I can post some pics of pistons detonated under boost and I guarantee there is no mistaking it when it happens you are lucky in some instances to get the plugs out of the head. Detonation is simply not the case here, no matter how much a certain member wants to make a case for it. It is a clearance issue. There is a thread going on over at modfords right now about the piston slap and someone over there posted the piston to cylinder clearance listed in the service manual is at .001 !!!!! That's a problem.
 

05 Roush

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Blak92 said:
If that were true though, what about the few cars that lost pistons with completely stock cars, there are a few of those right?

You're probably right. Remember, detonation can also occur when using low octane fuels. A bad batch of gas can cause detonation. Heck, a poor engine build or contaminants in the oil can also cause pistons to die.

These will be covered under warranty. Ford is smart. They know from the Lightning guys that tuners lean out WOT mixtures, and that my friend is a recipe for disaster if it leads to pre-ignition and/or detonation. When they tear down the block and see dimples on the piston head, scuffing, and other tell-tale signs of detonation, they're going to point right to the tune.

I would never, ever trust a tune out of the box, let alone one done by a tuner, without checking for detonation at WOT first!!!!!
 

Emmerson_Biggins

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Grey03Cobra said:
The only signs of detonation was the end of one of my sparkplugs (#1 plug) was gone (the small curved peice of metal on the very end). The guy working on the car said it had vaporized.

Just out of curiosity, were they platinum plugs??
 

Emmerson_Biggins

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PlatinumCobra said:
When they tear down the block and see dimples on the piston head, scuffing, and other tell-tale signs of detonation, they're going to point right to the tune.

Scuffing is not a sign of detonation, you are confusing people and cementing the assumption that you really don't know what you are talking about.
 

Grey03Cobra

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evil04cobra said:
Just out of curiosity, were they platinum plugs??


They were the stock platinum plugs.

As for my tune, It was taken from the tailpipe (I have since purchased a DynoJet Wide Band Commander), and it was right around 11.8. I was told the scuffing was caused by the lack of teflon on one side of the piston (the other side of the piston in the picture was not nearly as bad). On the up and down stroke the side of the piston that the teflon had wore off had a lot more friction than the other side, so it was "grabbing" the cylinder wall, which caused the scuffing.

The only sign of detonation was the damaged #1 spark plug. Everything else appeared to be from high heat.
 
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Emmerson_Biggins

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Grey03Cobra said:
They were the stock platinum plugs.

That is why it vaporized. The platinum on the plug tip is a catalyst. It self cleans and generates very high temperatures. But the catalytic action of platinum is not just utilized on the plugs, it is also one of the catalyzing agents in the catalytic converter. It is interesting that you just lost one, I certainly would have expected more than that. Ohers were probably on their way.
 

Grey03Cobra

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evil04cobra said:
That is why it vaporized. The platinum on the plug tip is a catalyst. It self cleans and generates very high temperatures. But the catalytic action of platinum is not just utilized on the plugs, it is also one of the catalyzing agents in the catalytic converter. It is interesting that you just lost one, I certainly would have expected more than that. Ohers were probably on their way.


The other plugs looked alright, no signs of running rich or lean (no white spots on them). Iv'e since replaced them with NGK-7's (iridiums :shrug: )
 

Emmerson_Biggins

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Grey03Cobra said:
They were the stock platinum plugs.

As for my tune, It was taken from the tailpipe (I have since purchased a DynoJet Wide Band Commander), and it was right around 11.8. I was told the scuffing was caused by the lack of teflon on one side of the piston (the other side of the piston in the picture was not nearly as bad). On the up and down stroke the side of the piston that the teflon had wore off had a lot more friction than the other side, so it was "grabbing" the cylinder wall, which caused the scuffing.

The only sign of detonation was the damaged #1 spark plug. Everything else appeared to be from high heat.

Actually, there are four types of scuffing that can occur.

Scuffing on one side of the piston (the load side) is caused by lugging the engine (applying too much throttle out of the power band)

Scuffing on both sides of the piston is due to excessive heat

Scuffing in four locations, usually called "four corners scuffing" is usually found on either side of the wrist pin and is caused by a wrist pin clearance that is too tight in the piston pin hole.
 

Emmerson_Biggins

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Grey03Cobra said:
The other plugs looked alright, no signs of running rich or lean (no white spots on them). Iv'e since replaced them with NGK-7's (iridiums :shrug: )

Wow, that's wild. Was the plug in tight?? Maybe it loosened and was sucking a little air??

That's pretty interesting. Maybe it was a defect??
 

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Riddle me this..If you were to build a 4.6 from scatch...One you knew you were going to throw 14+ psi at..& you wanted to compete in an event like the Silver State classic(90 miles wide open)how would you build it?
The piston damage discussed ad nausium in this thread is caused by excessive EGTs..Evil 04 has convinced me..(Thank you for cutting thrugh the BS)You have to look no further than cooked power-strokes..Where detonation is not even an issue..Just sky high EGT...Same thing occurs on a gas turbine when you pull too much power for too long..
Edit.. COMBUSTION chamber temp is what killed pistons.."EGT" is just the indication being observed..
 
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