Something to consider when the oil change topic happens here

[UnleashedBeast]

Scott, you are very welcome. Engine lubrication has been a passion of mine since 2004. I love cars, and have never minded sharing my knowledge with others. We will all need to form a 200,000 mile+ Shelby club many years from now, thanks to superior lubrication. :thumbsup:

 

[5 DOT 0]

Troy, what do you think is going to be a good choice of oil driving a few track days a year living in California with a moderately warm climate?

 

[UnleashedBeast]

Troy, what do you think is going to be a good choice of oil driving a few track days a year living in California with a moderately warm climate?

I think Amsoil 10W-40 is going to handle it well, as it has a HT/HS of 4.6, that's really high. It also doesn't shear like MC 5W-50. I do know that Motorcraft 5W-50 will not be acceptable for track use unless it's fresh. It shears so rapidly. Using MC 5W-50 for 2,000 miles, then taking a 20-30 minute session on a road course will be a terrible idea. The oil would have sheared so much, the HT/HS will be way to low for the oil temperatures that the engine will be experiencing.

I will be able to better answer this question after I complete the install of a oil pressure sensor. One Ford engineer made the statement that the engine temperature of the new 5.0 raises exponentially above 4,000 rpm. There will be a big difference of require viscosity depending on oil temperature. High temp/high shear "HT/HS" will be an important specification in it all.

After I test how the oil pressures in the Shelby react under cold starts, normal driving, and hot aggressive driving, I will be better able to answer your question with precision.

Give me about 1 week. The sensor is installed, I just have to run the wire through the firewall and connect the sensor to Analog 1 on the secondary Aeroforce sensor.

 

[Husker]

Troy, what do you think is going to be a good choice of oil driving a few track days a year living in California with a moderately warm climate?

I think Amsoil 10W-40 is going to handle it well, as it has a HT/HS of 4.6, that's really high. It also doesn't shear like MC 5W-50. I do know that Motorcraft 5W-50 will not be acceptable for track use unless it's fresh. It shears so rapidly. Using MC 5W-50 for 2,000 miles, then taking a 20-30 minute session on a road course will be a terrible idea. The oil would have sheared so much, the HT/HS will be way to low for the oil temperatures that the engine will be experiencing.

I will be able to better answer this question after I complete the install of a oil pressure sensor. One Ford engineer made the statement that the engine temperature of the new 5.0 raises exponentially above 4,000 rpm. There will be a big difference of require viscosity depending on oil temperature. High temp/high shear "HT/HS" will be an important specification in it all.

After I test how the oil pressures in the Shelby react under cold starts, normal driving, and hot aggressive driving, I will be better able to answer your question with precision.

Give me about 1 week. The sensor is installed, I just have to run the wire through the firewall and connect the sensor to Analog 1 on the secondary Aeroforce sensor.

I will only have 3-5 track days a year, most miles as daily driver, I live in Nebraska, Very Hot & Humid here in the summer, will store Boss in winter, Crossed 1000 miles yesterday, should I wait for your next update or change now, I will have less than 2000 miles for at least a couple of weeks?

 

[UnleashedBeast]

UPDATE:

Finally have the oil pressure sensor installed with the Aeroforce Interceptor setup. It's working great, and this is what I experienced tonight after getting the oil HOT!

Engine coolant temperature average ~180*F (at the thermostat) and ~190*F (at the cylinder head).

Ambient temperature during testing was 90*F

Idle pressure (oil hot) - ~30 PSI.

Here is the interesting part. The oil pressure quickly rises up to ~75 PSI at only 2,000-2,500 RPM, but even at 6,000 RPM the pressure never exceeds ~80-82 PSI.

Conclusion:

Amsoil 10W-40 is going to be suitable for track use at any time during the oil change interval. Pressure is higher than required for daily and aggressive street driving, but still acceptable. Track sessions would allow the oil to get hotter than on the street, and oil pressure would reduce due to reduced viscosity. This is OK, since Amsoil 10W-40 has room to thin during track sessions.

Normal driving would even allow for the use of Amsoil ATM 10W-30 in place of Amsoil AMO 10W-40.

This confirms what Michael @ L&M Engines has experienced with conventional 10W-30 Valvoline oil being used for engine break in. He said the pressure quickly increased upwards of 75-80 PSI at only 2,500 RPM (conventional oils don't flow as well as true synthetics thus resulting in higher pressures). In that engine, Amsoil RD20 (5W-20 Racing Oil) was used since the engine would see 7,900 RPM revs. I still need a report back from him on the pressures he experienced with it.

 

[UnleashedBeast]

UPDATE:

Added a detailed Excel spreadsheet to compare UOAs from different 5W-50 lubricants to the end of post #1.

 

[mustangc]

... Guess what, SAE grade ratings for engine lubricants are very misleading when different base stocks are being used (true synthetic versus refined petroleum).

Amsoil 20W-50, Amsoil 10W-40, and Red Line 5W-50 are true synthetic base stocks. No refined petroleum is present in the formulation....Motorcraft and Castrol 5W-50 use a highly refined petroleum base stock...

When can a base stock stop being called "highly refined petroleum" and start being called "true synthetic"?

 

[UnleashedBeast]

When can a base stock stop being called "highly refined petroleum" and start being called "true synthetic"?

When it's not pumped out of the ground and "refined" to remove natural contaminates within the base stock. No matter how highly refined it is, the base stock still contains molecules "contaminants" from other compounds that are not desired.

 

[mustangc]

So what are synthetic oils made from?

 

[UnleashedBeast]

So what are synthetic oils made from?

Do you like to read?


Polyalphaolefin.pdf

There is more to read about esters, but I thought we would start light.

 

[mustangc]

Do you like to read?


Polyalphaolefin.pdf

There is more to read about esters, but I thought we would start light.

So a group IV base stock (true synthetic) is PAO. What are polyalphaolefins made out of? Your marketing material doesn't clearly say.

 

[UnleashedBeast]

So a group IV base stock (true synthetic) is PAO.

Correct.

Group II - conventional
Group III - hydrocracked "highly refined petroleum"
Group IV - PAO
Group V - esters

Here is a good quote from BITOG forums. Even this isn't as much information as you are requesting.

Synthetic base oils are manufactured by man from relatively pure and simple chemical building blocks, which are then reacted together or synthesized into new, larger molecules. The resulting synthetic basestock consists only of the preselected molecules and has no undesirable weak links that inhibit performance. This ability to preselect or design specific ideal molecules tailored for a given job, and then create those molecules and only those molecules, opens a whole new world for making superior basestocks for lubricants. In fact, the entire formulation approach is different: instead of trying to clean up a naturally occurring chemical soup to acceptable levels with a constant eye on cost, the synthetic chemist is able to focus on optimum performance in a specific application with the knowledge that he can build the necessary molecules to achieve it. And since full synthetic oils are generally a company’s premier offering, their best foot forward so to speak, the additives are often better and in higher doses as performance trumps cost.

In general, synthetic base oils offer higher oxidative and thermal stability, lower pour points, lower volatility, higher VI, higher flash points, higher lubricity, better fuel economy, and better engine cleanliness. The amount and balance of these improvements vary by synthetic type, and can be quite significant for the engine and user.

There are many types of synthetic base oils, the most common being Polyalphaolefins (PAOs), Esters, Alkylated Naphthenes (ANs), and more recently Group IIIs. These different types of synthetic base oils are often blended together (or even with mineral oils), to give the balance of properties desired. All offer improved performance, but at a higher price, which brings up the question of value – how much performance to you need, and how much should you pay for it?

Group IIIs are a somewhat controversial class as they are derived from crude oil like Groups I & II, but their molecules have been so changed by severe processing that they are marketed as Synthetics. Most people now accept Group IIIs as synthetic, but the discussion remains heated among purists, and I’m going to duck by not taking a side here.

What are polyalphaolefins made out of?

Welcome to my world....as that .pdf is as much in detail as I know.

Some have said it's a form of GTL (gas to liquid) technology process, and people like ExxonMobil are not revealing any secrets. They are one of the primary suppliers of PAO to Amsoil.

Your marketing material doesn't clearly say.

Call it what you will..."marketing"....I call it testing that has proven Motorcraft 5W-50 is inferior to other better choices on the market. Despite that....people still choose to use it. You have no idea how many people now use Amsoil 10W-40 in their Shelby and report more efficiency compared to Motorcraft.

Try it, you will become a believer too.

If you are a Mobil 1 fan, I encourage you to use Mobil 1 0W-40, it's a true synthetic as well. It's also superior to Motorcraft 5W-50.

 

[josh1899]

Unleashed, whays your view on Royal Purple? Ive run it for years, but am curious about Amsoil. How would the 2 compare? For reference, it would be 5w-20 for a 6.2 Raptor. Thanks in advance.

 

[UnleashedBeast]

Unleashed, whays your view on Royal Purple? Ive run it for years, but am curious about Amsoil. How would the 2 compare? For reference, it would be 5w-20 for a 6.2 Raptor. Thanks in advance.

Royal purple also uses true synthetic base stocks, so that's great news. Their new HPS formulation is even more robust than the older standard Royal Purple line up in the older bottles. The new standard Royal Purple has reduced ZDDP to comply with API SN certification standards.

Overall, it's great stuff. Jimmysidecarr actually works for Royal Purple, and I bet he can even give you more info on their new formulations that I can.

 

[5 DOT 0]

Where does Mobil One fit in here? Would it be closer to the Motorcraft or Redline oils?

 

[sky1]

What about the 15w50 Mobil1? I never start my car or bike,and go right out and hammer it till my oil & coolant temp are up.

 

[UnleashedBeast]

Where does Mobil One fit in here? Would it be closer to the Motorcraft or Redline oils?

It depends on the few formulations of Mobil 1 that are actually 100% true synthetic base stocks, not blended with hydrocracked petroleum and PAO.

The only formulations that are 100% true synthetic from Mobil 1.

Mobil 1 0W-30, 0W-40, 5W-40, 5W-50, 15W-50

Mobil 1 EP 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30

Red Line is really in a class all it's own, since it uses greater amounts of group V esters.

What about the 15w50 Mobil1? I never start my car or bike,and go right out and hammer it till my oil & coolant temp are up.

It's still too viscous for the engine. I would never use greater than a robust 40 grade lubricant.

 

[josh1899]

Royal purple also uses true synthetic base stocks, so that's great news. Their new HPS formulation is even more robust than the older standard Royal Purple line up in the older bottles. The new standard Royal Purple has reduced ZDDP to comply with API SN certification standards.

Overall, it's great stuff. Jimmysidecarr actually works for Royal Purple, and I bet he can even give you more info on their new formulations that I can.

Awesome man. Thanks for info. Glad to hear it from an expert and not just a commercial or marketing team! Thanks again.

 

[mustangc]

Awesome man. Thanks for info. Glad to hear it from an expert and not just a commercial or marketing team! Thanks again.

Can UB recap his credentials for those of us who haven't read all of the oil threads in the various forums?

As for my earlier questions, my intent wasn't to bash synthetics or argue over which oil is best. I, too, use synthetics in all of my high performance cars. I just wanted a basic understanding behind the buzzwords. I confess I am not petrochemist myself, so I was asking simple questions in search of simple answers.

I found out that PAO's (Group IV base stocks) are made from simpler hydrocarbon chains. As I suspected, these molecules are themselves harvested from fossil fuels. From a manufacturing standpoint, these smaller hydrocarbon chains are most commonly formed by steam-cracking lighter petroleum distilates or natural gas.

When can a base stock stop being called "highly refined petroleum" and start being called "true synthetic"?

So, to my original question regarding 'highly refined petroleum' vs. 'true synthetic', Even 'true synthetics' are derived from the processing of fossil fuels. The biggest difference I could find is that, Group I-III stocks utilize the molecular strands that are physically refined but not chemically altered after they leave the ground. To produce Group IV base stocks, petrochemical companies actually break down the molecules themselves into simpler hydrocarbon chains and reconstruct them into longer polymers similar to those found naturally in petroleum. Doing this enables the chemists to engineer the exact characteristics needed, and to make sure every molecule is identical.

So, the quick answer is that Group I-III stocks are physically separated and refined (but retain the original molecular chemistry), while the 'true synthetics' in Group IV are chemically broken down at the molecular level and then reconstructed. The result is more control and consistancy at the molecular level.

The way I'd explain it to my son is: imagine you need a pair of shoes. You can go to the mall (which I would compare to crude oil). From there, you could narrow your search to the shoe store (highly refined petroleum) for a nice pair of shoes off the shelf. However, if money were no object, you could go to the leathersmith and recieve a custom designed pair of shoes made just for you (akin to the full synthetic). Both pairs of shoes may even be made with leather from the same cow, but with the custom shoes, he's choosing the exact subcomponents - style, material, and fit - for his exact needs. Will the storebought shoes work well enough? Sure. Will the custom shoes fit better? Absolutely. Can even custom shoes be spec'ed out poorly? Yep.

 

[UnleashedBeast]

Awesome man. Thanks for info. Glad to hear it from an expert and not just a commercial or marketing team! Thanks again.

No expert here....just a fanatic guru. I still learn something new about engine lubrication all the time.

Can UB recap his credentials for those of us who haven't read all of the oil threads in the various forums?

I've studied engine lubricant technology since 2004 when I became fascinated by German Castrol 0W-30 "green" formulation. Signed up as a member of BITOG in 2005. I would read anything I could get my hands on from press releases, chemist's articles, anything testing related, manufacturer .pdf releases, forum posts on BITOG from respected members in the lubrication industry, UOA and VOA results, and on...and on...and on. Simply, anything pertaining to engine lubrication and technology, I wanted to read it. Cars and engine lubrication are my hobbies when I'm not maintaining my 4.0 GPA in college (computer information major).

In 2009, I began pushing Amsoil to the limit to test the manufacturers claims. I'd seen the independent testing, but real world testing when it involved my cars were more important to me. I wanted to see how results could vary from a respected lubricant like Mobil 1 when compared to Amsoil.

Things like...

Fuel economy
UOA results
VOA results
Valve train noise differences
Oil pressure variations
Oil temperature variations

Other people ask me, why did you choose Amsoil? My answer....because I can buy it at wholesale cost (you don't have to be a dealer to do this), I get a true synthetic base stock performance for what others are paying for hydrocracked petroleum, and Amsoil's signature series lubricants have the ability to surpass even Mobil 1 EP (Mobil's best lubricant - rated at 15,000 miles) in extended oil change intervals. I'm also a big fan of low NOACK volatility, and true synthetics like Amsoil and Red Line have that.

On too the manufacturing conversation (natural gas - GTL: Gas to liquid). Yes, you have described it as I have seen it described elsewhere, common substances....different means of the end results. I also have an easy way to explain this to someone.

The water analogy

Pump water from a lake, river, or stream into a plant. Purify it, remove minerals, and make it look clear. You have "group III" water.

Take Hydrogen and Oxygen in the purest form, chemically bond them together to make group IV water. With no impurities to remove you have more consistent results and hence....group IV PAO true synthetic.