Retrofitting a '13 GT500 carbon fiber driveshaft to an '07-'12 GT500

[Tob]

No, I didn't drop it nor do I intend to!

I have noticed the different weave patterns. Ron, do you know who did the lay up of the CF tube for PST?

BTW, I did speak with 'Joel' from the Tremec. We talked for a bit regarding the relationship between Ford and Tremec as well as some of the technical aspects of the 6060 as used in the GT500. He did acknowledge that some CJ owners were removing the damper on the fixed flange to reduce weight. Beyond that, I have yet to get any specific answers from them.

I highly suspect that in either Tremec's Queretaro, Mexico facility or at the Plymouth, Michigan facility, are a few '13 GT500 cup style flanges with early count splines. That piece alone could have made the installation a simple bolt in. Best I can tell from media provided by Tremec, is that the flanges are made in Queretaro and are supplied already installed on 6060's earmarked for Ford GT500's.

I initially wondered if Ford was producing and installing them stateside. Direct from the Ford plant where our S197's are pieced together, lies an engine/transmission assembly...

The above didn't confirm it though. I had previously seen boxed Ford 6060's (marked Hecho en Mexico) with the flange already on them though...

In addition, Tremec shows footage of various 6060 assemblies being manufactured/assembled at the Mexico plant with them installed (the following is a non-Ford 6060)...

Damn it! Why won't this go into gear!?!

Anyway, my understand is that Ford specifies much of what they want in the transmission from Tremec, and that includes the flange. I see engineers staffing both the Plymouth and Queretaro facilities, but what looks to be laser welding of the splined stub to the machined cup if you will, is done in Queretaro. Which leads to the following question. Why couldn't FRPP have a hybrid flange made (early spline stub mated to the '13 cup) by Tremec?

My assessment - they could. Corporate politics aside, a few phone calls to Mexico and a box of prototype flanges could be in the hands of FRPP engineers within a couple of weeks. Why won't they do it? Therein lies the rub (and a bit convoluted at that). Hopefully Mr Kershaw can be specific about this one.

 

[mustangtw]

Great thread op!

 

[03 DSG Snake]

I have noticed the different weave patterns. Ron, do you know who did the lay up of the CF tube for PST?

No clue. It is probably about 5 years old or more at this point however.

 

[Tob]

Well son of a gun. While perusing recently uploaded photos of the 2013 Boss 302S I came upon this photo...

...now look closely at a photo of the 2012 Boss 302S. Notice something that has been changed?

While it looks like assembly has gone from the Niche Assembly line to Watson Engineering, that isn't what I was referring to:dw:. I noticed that FRPP was now using the 2013 GT500 fixed flange at the end of the 6060/Coyote engine combination that moves this car.

I think that prior 302S models were using a two piece steel shaft (or aftermarket one piece aluminum). But wait....why would FRPP change the flange at the rear of the transmission? Unless they were also using the CF shaft...

Well I'll be...Mr Wilson and Co. quietly slipped this one in. The 2013 Boss 302S is using the 2013 GT500 CF shaft! I've seen mention of it nowhere. Unless Watson is tweaking the driveshaft tunnel for additional clearance, I'm starting to believe that any mention of that being one of the reasons for this not becoming a kit for '07-'12 GT500's is a bit of a myth...

 

[stkjock]

Sherlock Tob!!

 

[Justin@VMP]

BTW, I did speak with 'Joel' from the Tremec. We talked for a bit regarding the relationship between Ford and Tremec as well as some of the technical aspects of the 6060 as used in the GT500. He did acknowledge that some CJ owners were removing the damper on the fixed flange to reduce weight. Beyond that, I have yet to get any specific answers from them.

I don't follow CJ racing very much, but early on I was told by FRPP that only one was made with a 6spd auto. For the type of racing most CJ owners do I don't believe the 6060 is a great solution for them.

 

[Justin@VMP]

Phil, I was not directly involved in the warrantying of your shaft, but I believer there were some length issues involved. Regardless, glad its fixed now.

 

[Justin@VMP]

There are a bunch of different ideas in this thread, I will try to pull out the ones that I noticed...

The Ford 13 CF shaft is heavier than the PST CF shaft because it has CV joints at both ends.

Tob, the differences in the pinion flanges on 13+ GT500 (and 11+ GT) seem to be purely cosmetic, and may just be there to make installation/removal easier. Whether factory or aftermarket, the driveshaft is sometimes hard to remove because it won't collapse enough.

Other than two failures (one noted here), which we suspect are due to incorrect length, we have had great luck with the PST shafts. We have run their shafts in my 07 GT500 and Rebecca's 11 GT and put thousands of street miles on them. PST has been working with CF for over 10 years. I would be weary of anyone that claims CF twists up significantly and improves 60ft times greatly, you can buy CF tubes with any weave you want, but choosing the right one comes from experience. PST has used CF extensively in pro-mod drag cars. Certainly Ford has engineered for their set of circumstances such as crash safety and a 200mph speed rating, but there is something to be said for other types of engineering and testing in a drag racing environment as well. Both are very beneficial.

The crutch of the PST is getting the length correct, their CV joint allows for 7/8" worth of movement, the factory movement range through the arc of the rear ends travel is about 3/8". If you bind the shaft in extension or compression the carbon fiber bond to the yokes on either end will fail. From the note above it seems the factory CF shaft and CV joints have the same limitation within 1/8", I believe only one end moves.

The primary benefit of CF is not necessarily weight, but much higher critical speed. Alum can start to reach critical speed around 150-180, but CF will go 30% faster. I have been on the dyno at 180mph with my GT500 and have felt no vibes with the PST CF shaft.

 

[Tob]

Sherlock Tob!!

The crutch of the PST is getting the length correct, their CV joint allows for 7/8" worth of movement, the factory movement range through the arc of the rear ends travel is about 3/8". If you bind the shaft in extension or compression the carbon fiber bond to the yokes on either end will fail. From the note above it seems the factory CF shaft and CV joints have the same limitation within 1/8", I believe only one end moves.


The primary benefit of CF is not necessarily weight, but much higher critical speed. Alum can start to reach critical speed around 150-180, but CF will go 30% faster. I have been on the dyno at 180mph with my GT500 and have felt no vibes with the PST CF shaft.

Justin, something I've been trying to find out. For example, on one of your PST shafts, how much do you allow for extension and how much for compression? If the total movement is 7/8" and the rear swings with an arc of 3/8", where do you want to be at ride height within that spectrum? In other words, at ride height are you allowing say 3/8" for compression and 1/2" for extension from a neutral standpoint (ride height)?

And I hear you on critical speed. Just one of the benefits CF has that I look forward to exploiting.:-D

Regarding where this project stands, I forwarded the two flanges I had to Tom, the business end of this endeavor. He has been great to work with. Last night he sent me a snippet of what he's been up to. First, an overlay of the 2013 (red) and 2009 (green) output flanges...

And here's a rendering of the adapter affixed to the early flange...

I've been able to obtain help from a source here or there and am eternally grateful for it. When all is said and done there will have been a small handful of individuals that made this possible. My sincerest thanks to each one of you guys.

Tob

 

[Tob]

Tom started carving and sent me a shot. What you see above was once a chunk of 4140 prehardened steel. Aw yeah...

 

[Van@RevanRacing]

nice

 

[Zquez]

Awesome.

Of note as well TOB, the '13 302S uses the '13 GT500 transmission with the integrated cooler pump, so they didn't just put the 13 flange on an earlier 6060.

 

[03 DSG Snake]

Tom started carving and sent me a shot. What you see above was once a chunk of 4140 prehardened steel. Aw yeah...

Quite sexual, isn't it?

 

[PRP]

Phil, I was not directly involved in the warrantying of your shaft, but I believer there were some length issues involved......<SNIP>

Other than two failures (one noted here), which we suspect are due to incorrect length,..... <SNIP>

Since fingers are being pointed, and very obviously being pointed at ME (because *I* am the installer of the "one noted here"), and since Justin clearly states that he ("we") suspects it is a issue of "incorrect length", I feel the need to set the record straight regarding the issue of "length".

When I decided to pull the trigger and modify my 2010 GT500, I decided to do it all at one time during the second "Winter Storage" period of ownership. I wanted to accumulate ALL of the parts necessary to modify my car so when I started the mod process, there would be no hold-up waiting for parts.

My list of mods included the Ford Racing Performance Parts FR-3 Handling pack which lowers the car by 1.25" Fr/1.50" Rr.

I also decided to use the "new" PST Carbon Fiber driveshaft that Justin Starkey had recently (at that time) posted a article about on Team Shelby forums.

The first "problem" I ran into was that Ford Racing had the FR-3 handling pack on back-order because they were changing manufactures of their shocks/struts. I purchased nearly all of my FRPP parts through Tousley Ford and all arrived except the FR-3 kit.

Although I contacted and received a quote directly from PST (for a little over $100 less than VMP sells them for) I decided to deal with VMP because they were a "Supporting Vendor" on Team Shelby and Justin had a relatively decent reputation for post-sale customer service. I figured the $100+ dollars was worth the extra comfort of post-sale service, SHOULD I HAVE A PROBLEM. I dealt directly with Justin Starkey and told him of my dilemma...That I did not have the FR-3 pack and therefor I could not provide him with a *exact* (true) measurement from my car, a measurement of the driveshaft length I needed because I did not have the FR-3 kit (let alone installed) and that I could not even 'guesstimate' what the true length of the DS needed to be because I don't know where the rear axle would sit once the suspension was loaded BUT...I figured since Justin has sold so many already he could give me a very accurate length based on all of his previous sales (and noting that all GT500's will be the same).

Justin told me that he has been seeing them come in at 51-1/2" (that's a direct quote). So I went ahead, took his advice of 51-1/2" and ordered mine 51-1/2" long.

I got the driveshaft from VMP and continued to wait on the FR-3 pack but the wait for that allowed me to go ahead with all of my other work/mods and get them done so when the handling package arrived, all I'd have to do is install it along with the driveshaft.

NOTE: I bought all Roush rear suspension parts that are fully adjustable, including Trailing Ams (aka Lower Control Arms), Third Link (aka Upper Control Arm) and Third Link Bracket (2 point adjustable).

The FR-3 kit finally arrived (something like 5 months later) and I promptly installed it. At the rear all I needed to install was the rear springs, shocks and sway bar. After I installed the springs/shocks I supported the rear of the car with jackstands ON THE REAR AXLE (to load the suspension to curb height). When I went to install the PST driveshaft I put the front end up to the trans flange and used two bolts, finger tight to hold it up in place. When I went to install the rear CV joint into the pinion flange (socket), it would not compress enough to get it past the bump on the end of the CV joint (on the end plate). I dropped the front back down, installed the rear (CV joint) into the socket and then I was able to slide the front U-joint yoke up to the transmission flange and bolt it up. It was CLOSE but did have room enough that I did not have to force it or pinch it (that was my first clue of a possible problem).

After all was said and done it was time for a shake-down cruise, a road test. With so much work done all at one time I took it very slow, very easy, very methodical. There were in fact a number of noises but most with the front end (left front brake rotor rub, lower ball joint clunk (wrong A-arms from Shelby), etc.) except one very obvious sound emulating from the rear of the car, a howl coming from the rear axle area.

One of the first problems I noticed was a rear end howl, much like a bad bearing. Not extremely loud but loud enough to sound like I had a bad pinion or side bearing in the diff. I had also installed a FRPP Axle Girdle so I knew it was either that I had the bearing cap girdles too tight (unlikely since they are in INCH pounds) or the driveshaft was binding (very possible since I could not get it in, front first). I drove a maximum of TWO BLOCKS (one away from the house and one back!) at a minimum speed (approx 20mph MAX). I pulled back into my garage and immediately put my car back up on jack stands.

I got my measuring tape out, slid under the car and measured from Flange-to-Flange. My measurement was just a RCH over 51" between the two flanges.

PROBLEM NOTED: The driveshaft was 1/2" TOO LONG.

PROBLEM SUSPECTED: The driveshaft was either so long it was putting pressure on the outer pinion bearing and causing the howl, or the CV joint was too tight with a slight bind and causing the howl. Either way, I needed to take care of the problem or face a self-induced driveshaft failure.

Okay, so that's easy enough to cure (in my case). Since I had the Roush adjustable rear suspension arms (LCA/UCA) I measured each one (which were at stock/OEM length except for the UCA which was slightly longer to give me my desired 1d pinion angle), marked a line on each that showed them 1/2" longer, adjusted each one 1/2" longer (than stock) and moved the rear axle assembly back in the chassis exactly 1/2", TO COMPENSATE FOR A DRIVESHAFT THAT WAS ONE-HALF INCH TOO LONG.

That immediately took care of the bearing noise (howl) but gave me a couple of other noises under harsh conditions (rough road driving). The springs were VERY close to the back side of the spring pockets in the subframe and the panhard bar was VERY close to the extended portion of the axle girdle so on a HARD bump, I'd get a clunk. Liveable, but not desirable.

So I contacted PST via e-mail and told them of my findings. They said that THEY see GT500 driveshafts come in at 51" all day long and NOT at 51-1/2" long. I asked them about the possibility of shortening mine and they said they could do it for $200 + Shipping. That was in the planning stages for THIS Winter (when it went back into Winter storage).

I never made it that far. The driveshaft FAILED before the summer season was over. In fact, there was a total of 585 miles on it when it failed.

Now one of the FIRST problems I encountered was when Stephen (VMP) said PST was saying *I* caused the problem by moving my rear axle back in the car for no apparent reason which pulled the yoke out of the carbon fiber tube. The first thing they did was ask for pictures and as I explained, Pictures don't show you anything other than the witness marks I put on the yoke/shaft, so why do they want pictures? (they were trying to prove the yoke was pulled out, which is WAS NOT).

I explained my situation (the same as what I wrote above) to Steven by phone and he agreed, IT WAS NOT A FAILURE DUE TO MOVING THE REAR AXLE BACK. It is very important to note that PST was making this claim WITHOUT EVER HAVING SEEN THE DRIVESHAFT, without inspecting it, without observing it, with NOTHING more than the pictures I sent them (not showing ANY DAMAGE) and the knowledge that I moved my rear axle back in the chassis by 1/2".

Their claim was backed up with their statement that THEY HAVE NEVER SEEN ANOTHER FAILURE SIMILAR TO MINE (so it MUST be *my* fault!).

In the meantime, I posted some tidbits (I wanted to wait for resolution before posting the full story) on Team Shelby and low and behold, ANOTHER person had the same exact failure and had dealt with the very same person *I* (and Stephen) was dealing with (Mark from PST). He didn't have a "length issue", his flat out failed while driving on the freeway (light load). And he was told that because of his failure, PST has changed the bonding agent (glue) they use to bond the yoke to the carbon fiber shaft (because of ONE failure??? Yeah, right....)

When I was speaking to Mark (PST) on the phone I mentioned his remark via Stephen about there being no other failures and he confirmed it. He said they've never seen a failure like mine. The problem was, I had the e-mails between him and the other person, with a video showing the problem (the aluminum yoke was spinning in the carbon fiber shaft!).

I said I knew of another person with a exact same failure and as he started to deny it I mentioned the other persons name. Mark immediately started to stammer and stutter and then QUICKLY changed the subject. I had very OBVIOUSLY caught him in a lie, which was part of the basis for them pointing fingers at me for the length issue. He also told me they changed bonding agents/glue from 3-M to (I don't remember the brand). Hmm, but if you've never seen another failure like mine (the bond between the yoke and shaft)...WHY ON EARTH DID YOU CHANGE BONDING AGENTS? HMMMmmmmmm.

Personally, I *thought* the issue of length was settled but now it comes up in a public forum with Justin Starkey publicly pointing fingers so obviously, IT IS NOT SETTLED.

Yes, the bottom line is that I HAVE A NEW REPLACEMENT PST DRIVESHAFT IN MY POSSESSION. It took WELL over 4 months of back and forth BS with PST before they even said they would take care of it, let alone before I had it in my hot little hands. I DO NOT consider that good customer service but at the same time, I do NOT hold Steven responsible for the delay. I say that because at one point he was told (from PST) that "the guy (at PST) who is handling my issue took a ONE MONTH VACATION". What? Excuse me? ARE YOU F*CK*NG SERIOUS??? NO ONE gets or takes a ONE MONTH vacation from work and if somehow they do, they inform the person filling in for them in regards to any issues, jobs or taskes needing attention. Now having said that, I *did* have to write several e-mails to VMP asking what each delay was but I'd always get a phone call immediately after I sent the e-mail with a current update. Stephen was nothing but professional and gracious. Okay okay, so THAT end of the communication could have been handled a little better but I'm "okay" with it. Perhaps Steven could have sent me a e-mail every time he got something from PST but that wouldn't have gotten me my driveshaft any sooner so again, I DO NOT HOLD STEVEN (Stephen?) responsible for the delay. I hold *PST* responsible.

Just remember Justin, when you point a finger at someone you are pointing three back at yourself.

Those are the *facts* people. I will not trash PST or VMP. I will let you make your own decision on whether or not to buy from them. BUT, I most certanly *will* tell people the facts surrounding my situation and recommend AGAINST buying a PST carbon fiber driveshaft.

Sure, I have a new one to replace the failed one...but how long will THIS ONE last? And if IT fails, will I get another one? And another if IT fails??? I no longer have any confidence in a $1200 part I purchased, believing it was THE BEST...and THAT'S the part that really sucks (in my opinion).

The first one lasted 585 miles. Those miles were never on anything but OEM F-1 Street Tires and never on a prepped sticky launch pad. ALWAYS on public streets, black top. It failed on a 1-2 "short shift" (a speed shift but not at peak RPM). There is NO reason this part should have failed, NONE. I can ASSUME a lot of things but the one thing for sure is, it's not 'bonded' anywhere near like what Ford does with theirs.


Thanks for listening,

Phillip Pollard - Co. Springs, CA

 

[Justin@VMP]

Hi Phil, I have never measured a shaft at 51 1/2" or told anyone to order at that length. We have seen all of them come in at 50 7/8 to 51 1/8. Despite your claims, you clearly feel some aggrivation toward me regarding this situation with your comments about pointing fingers at me and the $100 price difference.

We were given a retail price by PST and told to stick to it.

I believe there is more to what happened then you realize or are making known on this forum.

I am going to do some research on your original order and talk with the owner of Pst, mark. Many of the things that happened were unacceptable.

 

[Tob]

Phill, I respect your concerns/issues with the experience you had. And while I'm interested in any further developments with regard to your situation, I'm trying to keep this thread tech based and on point - the retrofit of the OEM '13 CF shaft to earlier GT500's.

That said, I'm interested in the dimensions that both you and Justin have referenced. I assume that any dimensions that have been documented were taken from the flange face, where the CV joint or U-joint seats and not the lip (for example) at the rear pinion flange.

So the '13 shaft is pretty close to 50". Since the new for '13 fixed flange (transmission end) is longer it makes sense that the dimensions for the earlier shafts would be slightly longer. I'll try to get the dimension between the two flange faces ('13 vs '07-'12) and then add that to the length of the '13 shaft.

 

[PRP]

Phill, I respect your concerns/issues with the experience you had. And while I'm interested in any further developments with regard to your situation, I'm trying to keep this thread tech based and on point - the retrofit of the OEM '13 CF shaft to earlier GT500's.

That said, I'm interested in the dimensions that both you and Justin have referenced. I assume that any dimensions that have been documented were taken from the flange face, where the CV joint or U-joint seats and not the lip (for example) at the rear pinion flange.

<SNIP pics>

So the '13 shaft is pretty close to 50". Since the new for '13 fixed flange (transmission end) is longer it makes sense that the dimensions for the earlier shafts would be slightly longer. I'll try to get the dimension between the two flange faces ('13 vs '07-'12) and then add that to the length of the '13 shaft.

Tob,

My apologies for shitting on your thread. I am having private e-mail conversation with Justin as I write this and there HAVE been some very important details that I discovered that IMO will affect the outcome (aka "blame") of this situation. I told Justin he could present it if he wants to or I can...It's his decision.

ON TOPIC: When PST asks for the shaft length, they expect you to provide them with the measurement from the transmission flange FACE to the CV joint flange LIP. I believe Mark (@ PST) said the lip is 3/16" deep. It MIGHT have been 3/8" (It was via phone so I have no written record of it) but that should be easy enough to see with a pinion flange in hand.

I had my DS out and provided Mark with the Flange to Flange (F-t-F) measurement and he calculated the correct length from that.

My measurement (F-t-F) was 51-3/16" so my new shaft should be 51" if I understand Mark correctly. I WILL be measuring it since finding the new details I found.

Your shaft measurement, using the flat on the CV joints is 50". The first PST shaft I got was 51-3/4" long, using the same points you used. Mine NOW would need to be 51-3/16" using your same points of reference (51" to the outside LIP of the rear flange) and believe me, I WILL be measuring it (live and learn)!

Does that make sense? It's hard to be real clear via text.


Phill

 

[Tob]

Makes sense Phill. But I see issue with not taking dimensions from the flange face because I have seen at least two iterations of pinion flanges on the GT500 as I mentioned earlier in this thread...

Note that the latest flange is 'scalloped' and I'm not sure the depth is indeed the same on each...

 

[Tob]

I found out that the length of the OEM '13 carbon fiber driveshaft, CV joint face to CV joint face, should be 50.0944" at factory ride height. If I add the difference between the '13 fixed flange and the '07-'12 flange, I come up with 51.3574". That number should represent the distance between a '07-'12 fixed flange face and the pinion flange face on a '07-'12 GT500.

I noted earlier that I could compress the CV joint at the plunge end approximately 5/8" (.625) and extend it approximately 3/8" (.375). This would mean that dynamically, the length of the shaft should be able to:

- extend to a total length of 51.7324" (51.3574 + .375)
- compress/retract to a length of 50.7324" (51.3574 - .625)

Again, these numbers would be from flange face to flange face on a 2007-2012.

 

[Tob]

Tom sent me a couple more photos this morning...

Stack up with the adapter places it further towards the rear axle than stock. The machined piece is as close as it could be to the original location. This is the same thing that Jim and I had spoken about earlier in this thread. The numbers indicate that the available plunge can absorb the slight difference without issue.

And here it is indexed atop the factory flange. Tom still needs to take care of the relief cutting as well as drilling/tapping.