Retrofitting a '13 GT500 carbon fiber driveshaft to an '07-'12 GT500

[Crowley]

Tob, quick question .. are you doing this just for a learning experience or cost savings or something? I see that DSS has a carbon fiber driveshaft for the 07-12 GT500 on the market.

DSS 07-2012 Shelby GT500 3-3/8" Carbon Fiber Drive Shaft

Crowley

 

[stkjock]

Dave, I don't want to badmouth any of the aftermarket offerings (please don't get me wrong, as I know that is an implication that you weren't intending at all). These are small businessmen that were willing to take a hefty risk and I greatly respect that. Suffice it to say, I don't mind paying the additional premium for the OEM developed shaft. Were FRPP to release a kit I'm sure it would be competitively priced with other units for sale on the market. But alas, they have chosen not to.

Never thought you were bad mouthing anyone, as you commented, was def not my intent.

My comment was purely based on the fact that many of us, myself included, have a alum 1-pc DS, that have proven very reliable. The cost to benefit upgrade (other than the "cool" factor) seem (In my opinion) to be few. So the $1000-1200 odd dollars that it may cost to upgrade would be better spent elsewhere, presuming you have a alum DS, that's really what I was getting after.

What the Carbon does real well is take the torque torsionally and allows it to release it more smooth than the other materials, it also is very good at dampening harmonic frequency so its much better at smoothing the feel of the drivetrain out. The other real nice this is it does not transfer noise from the Drive train like the steel shaft so it makes the car quieter in the cabin. On the higher end drag cars we have used them on there has been from a .1 to a .2 increase in the 60ft times.

/\ I hope that's a misprint and it should day decrease in 60' times

 

[Tob]

Gary, I think at this point this much is clear - to purchase the factory Ford CF shaft as well as any kind of adapter is going to be more expensive than much of what the aftermarket has to offer in order to accomplish the same thing. I don't prescribe to current Administration economic policy, so I can be honest here. There are cheaper ways to go about it if your goal is to add a CF shaft to your S197 chassis.

Learning experience? I'll run with that. But I see it the other way. Somebody at Ford made statements to Tom Wilson of 5.0 Mustang that inspired me almost instantaneously...

it is not possible to backdate the '13 driveshaft and transmission output shaft to a '12 or earlier GT500. SVT figures anyone needing the strength of the '13 driveshaft would also need the stronger '13 transmission and clutch, so they recommend buying the new clutch, transmission and driveshaft as a package. Or better yet, just swap payments for a '13 GT500 and be done with it.

Yes, the '13 has the stronger shaft amidst its much improved 6060, which I touched upon earlier. Most here understand that their '07-'12 transmission isn't as strong as the '13. But to tell me to just forget about trying it and to just drop the coin on the new transmission if installing the '13 shaft is my desire?

One word comes to mind. Weak.

Brian Zorman of SVT knew that a swap wouldn't be that difficult. And while that discussion was probably a bit beyond the scope of the reporting done in that '13 article, I saw the above quip as more of a challenge than the person whose mouth it came out of probably intended. To be fair, I do not know which engineer from SVT made those comments.

Again, my aim is not to step on any vendor's toes. I am aware that supporting vendors here carry an array of offerings with respect to aftermarket driveshafts, more specifically carbon fiber. My goal was to simply show that it could be done. That is, the use of the '13 shaft into an earlier car. There are a plethora of S197 chassis driveshaft upgrade threads available across the www. I just had yet to see one that provided more data than a simple bolt-on writeup that included the '13 shaft.

ON EDIT....stkjock, very observant. As much as that is what he typed, I think you are indeed correct in that he made a mistake and meant to say decrease. Good show!

I addressed the quote...

 

[03 DSG Snake]

Great read. I run a PST on my 03 and have been happy with it. I would definitely upgrade my 07 to a FRPP or OEM unit.

 

[force recon]

Great info.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Tob]

I love a good read too Ron. Whether its a good article in the Wall St Journal, sitting down as the sun shines on you through a window with the Sunday sports section in hand, the final pages of a best seller - I hear you. But there is something about a good tech read that surpasses all of them. It takes a certain kind, I guess.

Curious about what pinion flange my '09 originally had, I went out into the shop and took a closer look at the original axle assembly. It has sat alone for the past three years having been removed with under 200 miles on it and replaced with a 3.73 FRPP assembly (Droid camera warning...so-so clarity).

Nothing critical. Just another data point as both of my pinion flanges differ from what Jim has seen as well as photos of the '13 flange I linked earlier.



Motivated by the information Jim provided regarding the fixed flange on the transmission output shaft, I headed off to my employer's shop to use their Smithsonian era press (actually, I think it was pre-Smithsonian as they rejected it when donated to them:-D).

It took a fair amount of pressure to start moving. After a good 3/4" off stroke it came off rather easily.

Ay, chihuahua! The damping ring is heavy! Holding just it in my hand made wonder how much more work must be done to overcome the weight it carries. No wonder output shafts were snapping.

There is indeed a sleeve that is separated by a bonded rubber ring to another sleeve that was fit tightly to the damper ring.

And there it is, the remainder of which constitutes the same flange that is used on '10-'12 cars. Much lighter now...

Hopefully, my 6060 will love me for the massive corpulence reduction.

 

[stkjock]

So you removed the flange from the rear and it's going in the tail,of the trans?

 

[Tob]

No. I was just showing that both of my pinion flanges look the same and both are unlike the '13 or what I believe are post '09 pinion flanges.

The press, etc, are shots of the damper ring being removed from a stock '07-'09 transmission fixed flange. Idea being to lose weight on the end of the output shaft...

 

[stkjock]

/\ gotcha

 

[Tob]

I had forgotten about this visual aid that SVT showed during a press event earlier this year (captured by MM&FF)...

Anyhow, from what I learned recently, it sounds like the mothership may be taking a pass on this one. In general...

- sounds like there was indeed engineering concerns about the retrofit, ones that would take fund$ to validate. Safety and durability are taken very seriously.

- minor mods to the transmission tunnel would need to be addressed. Sounds like there are/were tweaks done to the CJ that would have been similar.

- mention of an increased likelihood of shaft/tunnel contact on lowered vehicles (common sense, I know) but that there are corrective measures such as bushing changes to eliminate it.

- finally, that the market has become a bit, I suppose, saturated. My senses are that Ford has an extremely well engineered part in the '13 CF shaft, and it would be quite a battle with aftermarket companies price wise that have already made some good advancements here and are well established in the field.

There are some good technical explanations about the improvements in the '13 driveline, direct from Ford. Here's two:

SVT enginer John Pfeiffer on the CF shaft... 2013 Shelby GT500 Engineering Overview - YouTube
SVT engineer Kerry Baldori on the CF shaft... New 2013 Ford Shelby GT500 - Media Launch Video - HD - from www.speedi.tv - YouTube

Still trying to get more data on the shaft and transmission. I'll report back if I can come up with anything or when I can update with the shaft itself or fixed flange work.

Tob

 

[evasive]

Very cool info. So if we are going to replace the stock '07-09 driveshaft with an aftermarket CF unit, we should remove the damper on the trans side to reduce weight? Similar to the '07 guys updating their crank pulley?

 

[Tob]

I can't say 'should'. I'm doing my best to find a more 'official' opinion on it though. IIRC, there were internal changes to the 6060 for the 2010 model year. That may a good indicator as to why and how it happened.

On edit....I saw that Nate Tovey of Tremec listed a tech rep number at 800-401-9866 (ask for Joel or Nate). I'll see what I find out on Monday.

I did see this elsewhere (from Nate) regarding the 6060...

We do supply some shifters for the OE manufacturers (such as the Challenger), but the GT500 is not one of them.

Interesting that Ford chose not to use a Tremec designed shifter for the 6060 while Chrysler did.

 

[PRP]

According to MM&FF, the two piece shafts are around 39 lbs. The '2013 CF shaft comes in at about 26 lbs.

Tob,

I weighed mine when I put my PST in.

It's a 2010 Coupe

OEM 2-pc = 40.2 lb.
PST 1-pc = 19.4 lb
Delta = 20.8 lb

Now I'm wondering why the PST is 6 1/2 - 7 pounds lighter than the OEM unit.


Phill

 

[PRP]

Tob - informative as always.
CF = 26#
Alum = 25-27#
Just curious why spend the funds to upgrade? The alum shafts have shown to be reliable to at least 1000 whp from what I've seen

A couple of points here;

Weight: My PST only weighs 19.4 lb. so the weight savings is moderately more than the FoMoCo 26 lb unit.

Price: It was also somewhat less expensive.

I originally ordered my PST 1-pc CF DS from Justin Starkey @ VMP with the billet aluminum yoke on it. That came in at $1,200.00 but Justin said I really didn't need the billet yoke (at my HP level (2.9L 750HP FRPP/Whipple)) so I canceled the yoke for a standard aluminum yoke which reduced the price to $1,125.oo.

PST gave me a price that was a little over $100 less than VMP's price so right around $1,000.00 for a 19.4 lb carbon fiber 1-pc driveshaft (vs. the ~$1500.oo 26 lb. FoMoCo unit) if I purchased direct from PST.

Advantages: My PRIMARY reason for going with a carbon fiber DS vs. a metal one (steel or aluminum) was due to a series of photo's posted from a guy either here (SVTP) or on the Team Shelby (TS) forums.

His aluminum DS failed and pretty much destroyed the belly pan on his GT500. A carbon fiber unit *should* cause much less damage. I say "should" because it's not just a carbon fiber shaft connected to a u-joint on one end and a CV joint on the other. One end (the rear) has a steel tube that runs up into the CV tube for almost one foot. I used a magnet to see how far up the CF tube the steel went. The front is aluminum so I could not test that end.

I chose to use a CF driveshaft over a aluminum driveshaft purely for the peace of mind in the event of a catastrophic failure. I felt the extra 4 or 5 hundred dollars would be off-set the first time the shaft broke apart at speed.

Having said that, MY PST CARBON FIBER DRIVESHAFT HAS FAILED. The bond between the aluminum u-joint yoke and the carbon fiber tube failed and allowed the yoke to spin within the CF tube. PST told Stephen @ VMP that they had never seen a failure such as this and they were pointing fingers at me as the cause. I have found another TS member that had the very same exact failure and dealt with the very same PST person (Mark). I have the e-mail trail to prove it so either someone has a very bad memory (they were both sold at the same times and both failed at the same times) or isn't being honest about it.

I (like the other PST failure) was assured that PST has changed the bonding agent from 3-M to some other product but I still have that inkling in the back of my mind that it may fail again (It failed on a public street (black top) on OEM Goodyear F-1 OEM tires).

So there are other reasons to use CF than just weight savings but using the FoMoCo price and weight shouldn't be the baseline for comparisons sake.

I'd like to see what Tob ends up with because I do feel the FoMoCo unit is FAR superior to the aftermarket units in that it has CV joints on BOTH ends and I would think (HOPE!) that Ford Motor Company has far more resources than PST to test a bonding agent that will not fail and they do not use a aluminum yoke on one end (which I believe is the REAL problem with the PST failures).

I hope I didn't go too far off on a tangent and hi-jack Tob's thread but it is related and does address a secondary question regarding the use of CF vs. Aluminum.


HTH,
Phill

 

[Tob]

I have spent some time studying different manufacturing techniques with respect to CF shafts in a GT500 application. From day one I have keyed on the interface between the CF tubes used and method by which they 'affixed' to steel. I have paid attention to end user comments, both positive and negative. It would seem, sometimes, as if development is ongoing. I saw your mention of the trouble you have had and I hope you get it resolved swiftly.

In essence, I have quite a bit of respect for factory development. So when I had heard that Ford engineered ends for their shaft that cost more than the CF itself I took note. If SVT engineer John Pfeiffer attests to their use of a pressed spline with a dry fit - I take heed.

I'm also curious as to why the aftermarket hasn't reverse engineered and followed suit. I've been looking for a patent and haven't found it yet. If anyone else has can you please link it?

ON EDIT..... Phill, it would seem we posted at the same moment. I've seen some photos of disastrous GT500 driveline failures, all of them ugly. Again, I hope you get taken care of. We could really shift directions regarding the subject of aftermarket shafts so I'm going to try to stay focused on what Ford did.

That said, I noticed mention in Tom Wilson's excellent writeup in 5.0 Mustangs and Super Fords of some detailed information regarding the shaft itself...

- Toray, a multinational corporation headquartered in Japan and the worlds largest producer of carbon fiber, handles the lay up of the CF tube itself. While they have facilities all over the world (including the US) I haven't been able to pin down where the GT500 tube is made. The 'exactness' of said tube shows up in the the inner tube face as well as its precise diameter, not the outside of the tube.

- There are 12 plies, laid in multiple directions.

- For crash purposes, there is a second layer of CF at each end.

- When placed under extreme axial loading, the second layer grows and ultimately shatters. All by design, as most probably wouldn't want the shaft entering the cabin in the event of a crash or major accident.

- Inside the shaft but located at the rear, is a 'torsional damper' comprised of both rubber and steel (much like that which resides at the front of a crankshaft).

- Neapco, a global manufacturer of various driveline components , manufactures and presses in the precision made and case hardened splined steel ends.

Impressive, to say the least.

 

[PRP]

Tob,

I weighed mine when I put my PST in.
OEM 2-pc = 40.2 lb.

Allcon,

I realized something about my DS weight last night.

I weighed the OEM 2-pc WITH the center carrier bearing, the bearing rubber mounting ring and the mounting bracket on it.

So the DS alone will weigh *slightly* less than the 40.2 pounds I have cited.



Phill

 

[Tob]

I got the shaft!

Thanks to an open border to our north, I was able to finally procure the meat and potatoes of this venture, the shaft.

Picking up the box, it felt heavier than I would have thought.

In person, the CF 'weave' almost looks green instead of black. The face is coarse to the touch and as mentioned earlier, flares to a larger OD at each end.

Ford makes it abundantly clear that dropping it essentially ruins it.

Hey Ford, you might want to call Toray. The last three sentences on that yellow warning sticker....syntax and spelling errors. Yikes!


CV joint at the axle end (no plunge at this end)...

The transmission end...

The fit into the 2013 fixed flange is tight...

A couple of additional observations...

- The boots at each end are more rigid than I would have thought. They are by no means "soft."

- Fully extended/compressed, the plunge (at the transmission end) is approximately one inch. While I have never measured it throughout the dynamic range as the suspension out back goes through full extension/compression, I would have thought there would have been more room needed.

- Located on the fore end of the shaft and directly on the insert is this...

I don't know what it is. A pinned balance weight? Electronically welded? I'd like to see if other shafts utilize a number other than 22. The preproduction cf shaft I showed on the previous page had one with the number 22 also.

Anyway. The 2013 GT500 carbon fiber driveshaft is an amazing piece. Now that I have it, I was able to check fitment to the '13 flange. I'll be shipping off the two flanges to my eager machinist.:rockon: The torch will be in his hands as soon as UPS can get it there.

Tob

 

[PRP]

1). Picking up the box, it felt heavier than I would have thought.


2). In person, the CF 'weave' almost looks green instead of black. The face is coarse to the touch and as mentioned earlier, flares to a larger OD at each end.


3). - The boots at each end are more rigid than I would have thought. They are by no means "soft."


4). - Fully extended/compressed, the plunge (at the transmission end) is approximately one inch. While I have never measured it throughout the dynamic range as the suspension out back goes through full extension/compression, I would have thought there would have been more room needed.


5). - Located on the fore end of the shaft and directly on the insert is this...

I don't know what it is. A pinned balance weight? I'd like to see if other shafts utilize a number other than 22. The preproduction cf shaft I showed on the previous page had one

1: DITTO! My new replacement PST 1-pc Carbon Fiber Driveshaft arrived at the end of last week. I was very surprised at how heavy the package felt when I lifted it up to bring it in the house. I will weigh this one to see if it's any heavier than my original one that failed. I have the original weight in tenths so I can get a good/accurate comparison between the two.


2: That is *totally* different that the PST Carbon Fiber shaft. The PST appears very close to what "regular" CF looks like with a smooth (but not polished) finish, and the very obvious CF weave. And no wider at the ends than in the center. Using a magnet, I tested my new PST shaft and the axle end CV joint tube extends only about 4 inches into the CF tube. Using a tap-tap method on the aluminum yoke end, it *sounds* like the Al. yoke only extends into the CF tube a inch or two! NOT good IMO. It's no wonder they're breaking the bond with so little surface area to bond with (I *could* be wrong on the depth but it sure sounds like it ends early).


3: Those CV joint boots appear to be exactly what most OEM FWD cars use on their drive axles. Very early ones were softer rubber like but they were replaced by what feels more like a semi-ridged plastic product. They LOOK exactly like what you have pictured above.


4: According to Mark @ PST, they measured the distance traveled over the full arc of the rear axle by removing the shocks/springs, moving the axle to full extension, through the arc to full compression and the *total* distance moved during the full arc of the rear axle is 3/8". They were just as surprised as I was (thinking it would have been greater).


5: That is indeed, a balance weight. They are spot welded on conventional drive shafts and I assume the same for that one. The "22" designates 22 grams, If I Remember Correctly/IIRC.



Phill

 

[Tob]

Phill, that was superb. Cheers, my friend. You've directly addressed things in a way that I truly appreciate.

Regarding the welded on weight, once again I found a shot from Tom Wilson's excellent article that Dale Amy took. Cropping/resizing/rotating 180*...

I do indeed see the burn marks from it being welded as well as the number 27.

 

[03 DSG Snake]

My PST had a bit of a 'green' tint to it under the garage light, but the weave is definitely visible compared to the Ford.

T-56:

I hate nothing more than getting damage.



So did you drop it???