ProCharger Kit Questions

mrogerc

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Although I own and love a Trilogy-equipped Marauder, and one kit is all I will ever buy (or, more correctly, be allowed to buy)---I am interested in some technical aspects of the ProCharger kit.

That a centrifugal blower is more efficient than a roots blower is well established. Is that why you were able to use air-to-air intercooling with fairly long tube lengths?

I would be curious as to your post-intercooler temperature rise over ambient. My car is a modifed Trilogy kit, and has a larger than standard intercooler radiator--it is from an Audi A6. With this setup, I get an post-intercooler temperature raise of about 30-32 degrees F. I think that is pretty good, given it is a roots-type blower. (BTW, I am reworking the routing of the hoses to this radiator--one tends to crimp, and that may be limiting efficiency, but as I said, it was not the original Trilogy part)

One noted disadvantage of the centrifugal blower is the lower performance at lower engine RPMs. Actually, this is not always considered a disadvantage as lower power at low RPMs can mean lower wheelspin and since boost is lower at the lower rpm there is less tendency to knock at lugging engine speeds--something I have had to work on in my tune. Do you get a ton of wheelspin at launch? Even with Nitto 305's, I still am traction limited on all the surfaces I have launched on.....

Finally, looking at your picture, it appears you have built a kit that allows you to keep the standard engine intake. That is pretty cool--from the looks of it you do not need to take off the upper intake, remove the knock sensors, etc. I like the look of your kit, and even better, the fact that you did it on the correct color Marauder--DTR.

Is the intake air sensor on your car after the intercooler? Again, I would interested in seeing what your net raise above ambient is. Sometime, I would like to insert a temp probe after the blower and before the intercooler to calculate the real-world efficiency of each, but that, I am afraid, is just one of the many things I will never get to.
 

tmac1337

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mrogerc said:
I would be curious as to your post-intercooler temperature rise over ambient. My car is a modifed Trilogy kit, and has a larger than standard intercooler radiator--it is from an Audi A6. With this setup, I get an post-intercooler temperature raise of about 30-32 degrees F.

One noted disadvantage of the centrifugal blower is the lower performance at lower engine RPMs. Actually, this is not always considered a disadvantage as lower power at low RPMs can mean lower wheelspin and since boost is lower at the lower rpm there is less tendency to knock at lugging engine speeds--something I have had to work on in my tune. Do you get a ton of wheelspin at launch?

Finally, looking at your picture, it appears you have built a kit that allows you to keep the standard engine intake. That is pretty cool--from the looks of it you do not need to take off the upper intake, remove the knock sensors, etc. I like the look of your kit, and even better, the fact that you did it on the correct color Marauder--DTR.

Is the intake air sensor on your car after the intercooler?

Even though you state you are using a "larger than standard" intercooler, no intercooler is 100% efficient at removing heat.

At what efficiency do you feel your intercooler is working? Your AIT will be hotter than the coolant based on this. The most accurate way to read the AIT would be to mount a sensor underneath the blower taking readings after the intercooler on a Roots. The Procharger AIT sensor is located after the intercooler, underneath the top most intake tube on the engine.

How efficient do you feel the "standard" intercooler was?

It is common knowledge Procharger cars have less low end TQ, but my car will chew tires up all day as I have 4:10's and a 3000 Stall TQ converter. I have driven a stock MM with the procharger, it still spins the tires but takes off like a sling shot.

And yes, not having to remove the upper engine components is a plus to this kit.

As for AIT readings, I have posted a few times on MM.net ref. this, do a search, should see what your looking for.
 

mrogerc

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Technically, it is absolutely possible to have intercooler efficiency over 100%. One merely needs to have a charge air coolant that is substantially cooler than ambient air temperature. Racing boats do this by using lake or ocean water as the heat exhange coolant for the intercooler.

I don't know the efficiency of my intercooler, nor the efficiency of my blower, I think my post was clear on that.....

And also to be clear--the intercooler on my car is the standard part. The radiator that exchanges heat from the coolant running though the intercooler to atmosphere is the part that is oversized. However, I wonder whether the fluid flow ewith the standard kit pump is sufficient to take advantage of that extra radiator surface area.

I think I was also clear that the temp probe is after the intercooler--so the net air temp increase after engine compartment, filter, MAF, throttle body, intake, blower, and intercooler is about 30-32 degrees. I was wondering if the Procharger setup was perhaps less. I will take a look at your posts, I assume you included ambient temps as well.

I really am not interested in axe grinding here. I find the technology of forced air induction to be pretty interesting, and in looking closely at the picture of the ProCharger setup, I am just curious about what different engineering compromises drove that design as opposed to the roots design of the Trilogy. Obviously it is possible to have very different, and equally good, approaches to the same problem. That this problem is solved mutiple ways on the same car makes it more interesting.
 

tmac1337

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mrogerc said:
I really am not interested in axe grinding here.

Hay, hold up, I'm not grinding any axe here. The AIT temps on your kit have already been tested by another member. Your temps seem similar to his and I believe both of you. End of story.
 

mrogerc

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Never meant to say you were grinding an axe---I am new to this Freedom of Speech in a forum thing, since I usually go to another forum---and there sure seems to be some axe grinding in other threads here.

Thanks for your answers so far. Maybe, like me, there are some other frustrated mechanical engineers (my degree, but A LONG TIME AGO, and I never applied it) who would like to share some thoughts.......
 

F-16

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mrogerc said:
Never meant to say you were grinding an axe---I am new to this Freedom of Speech in a forum thing, since I usually go to another forum---and there sure seems to be some axe grinding in other threads here.

Thanks for your answers so far. Maybe, like me, there are some other frustrated mechanical engineers (my degree, but A LONG TIME AGO, and I never applied it) who would like to share some thoughts.......
It's a really nice kit.
 

mrogerc

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Sure looks like it from the pictures. I particularily like the fact that the motor is less opened in the process. Nothing against the Trilogy kit, of course, which I have first hand experience with and is terrifically engineered.

It will be interesting seeing performance numbers on the two kits over time, to see if the "roots=more power low," and "centrifigal=more ultimate power" theory holds in this case. Of course, to get to ultimate power on either kit, you would have to open up the motor to strengthen the bottom end.

Amazing that a car with such a limited production run has such rich aftermarket support.
 
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F-16

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tallboy said:
How would you know?
I been doing alot of reading on the Marauder since I purchased mine . Isn't that the smart thing to do?
 

Tallboy

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F-16 said:
I been doing alot of reading on the Marauder since I purchased mine . Isn't that the smart thing to do?

What have you been reading? You said in the other thread you have a lot of reading to do. You've also said you hadn't been to MM.NET. So, where are you getting all this info? Is there a site or info we don't know about?
 

F-16

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tallboy said:
What have you been reading? You said in the other thread you have a lot of reading to do. You've also said you hadn't been to MM.NET. So, where are you getting all this info? Is there a site or info we don't know about?
Do you really think that MM.net is the only place to find out things about the Marauder ? Wake up !
 

TooManyFords

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I believe that everyone should broaden their horizons and realize the InTarWeb is bigger than any one forum and web address. You want the best info? Try communicating with your peers at the tracks and local events!

Socialize!

Be part of Humanity rather than an Icon on some electronic super highway!

I think we all lose site of this...

Who cares where we find the information? Who cares who's got the bigger site? Almost sounds like the age-old penis envy joke!

Instead of negatives, share the positives!

If you find a source of good info, SHARE IT! If it doesn't pass muster then don't.

Remember, a wise old sage once said, "A word to the wise is sufficient..."

Cheers!

John
 

TooManyFords

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So, where are we on the Topic of this thread? Has the ProCharger question been answered here in detail?

TMAC, post your info here instead of forwarding others to MM.net!

Let's stay on target and make this thread productive!

Cheers!

john
 

F-16

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TooManyFords said:
I believe that everyone should broaden their horizons and realize the InTarWeb is bigger than any one forum and web address. You want the best info? Try communicating with your peers at the tracks and local events!

Socialize!

Be part of Humanity rather than an Icon on some electronic super highway!

I think we all lose site of this...

Who cares where we find the information? Who cares who's got the bigger site? Almost sounds like the age-old penis envy joke!

Instead of negatives, share the positives!

If you find a source of good info, SHARE IT! If it doesn't pass muster then don't.

Remember, a wise old sage once said, "A word to the wise is sufficient..."

Cheers!

John
John your a wise man, well written.
 

mrogerc

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Thanks, John, I was hoping that one of the ProCharger kit folks would actually like to discuss this. Not as a debate, but as a discussion!

TooManyFords said:
Socialize!

Who cares where we find the information? Who cares who's got the bigger site? Almost sounds like the age-old penis envy joke!

After spending some time on Internet boards, I think would rather hear that joke......
 

TooManyFords

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My kit install doesn't begin till Wednesday, and already I can't sleep!

If I had the answers to the questions you could be sure I will share. I'll go back through this thread to see what I can help with.

And after this coming weekend and the CFR meet, I'll try to answer all of your original questions. I'm going to bring my laptop down to KC during the install and will ask Greg and Mike to help with the answers.

John
 
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MarauderTJA

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Procharger

mrogerc said:
Thanks, John, I was hoping that one of the ProCharger kit folks would actually like to discuss this. Not as a debate, but as a discussion!



After spending some time on Internet boards, I think would rather hear that joke......

I am willing to discuss anything on the Procharger Kit that needs answering as long it is civil and in the interest of those considering a supercharger.
 

BillyGman

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mrogerc said:
lower power at low RPMs can mean lower wheelspin and since boost is lower at the lower rpm there is less tendency to knock at lugging engine speeds--something I have had to work on in my tune. Do you get a ton of wheelspin at launch? Even with Nitto 305's, I still am traction limited on all the surfaces I have launched on.....

.
I'm sorry if this will distract from the main topic here, but there was just so many veiwpoints that you've shared all in your first post of this thread, that it just begs for replies, so here's mine concerning the part of your post in the quote above.......

My viewpoint is,....... how can you have too much low-end power? As for me, as heavy as Marauders are, give my heavy car all the low-end power possible, and I'll take care of the traction issue (if there really is one) in one way or another. It's better to have more than enough low-end power than can be used, than to have not enough. With the Nitto drag radials, 4.56 gears, and a 3,000 RPM stall speed, my 4,200 LB tank of a Marauder runs consistent 1.6 second 60' times at the dragstrip with the Trilogy(roots)supercharger on 93 octane gas, and I'm certainly not any pro racer. But I don't load up the torque converter at the line either. I just hit the go pedal, and the tires grab as long as I take the air pressure down to 17-22 PSI. and I do a burnout beforehand into second gear(first gear won't get the tires heated up enough).

And on the street when the traffic light turns green, I just half pedal it out of the hole for about the first 20-25 feet, the tires grab good, and the car still takes off a whole lot quicker than it did before it was supercharged, and then while it's still in first gear, I put it to the floor, and I get great traction. it just takes a little experimentation, and skill, but it's a good problem to have (if it really IS one for you) because atleast your car has the torque to spin the tires like that IF you want it to. But the real advantage on the street is the gobs of midrange torque that go with that. All of which can be used even at full throttle.

My comments are in no way meant to knock centrifugal superchargers in any way, so please let's not get into that. They're just intended to address this misconception of having "too much" Low-end torque. Bottom line is, if you have more than you can use at full throttle on the street, that isn't neccessarily bad, since all that's required is that you learn just how much throttle you can use off the line, and still stay hooked up with the tires you're using, as well as just how far off the line you have to get the car traveling before you can give it full throttle.

And as you can see by others' posts, you'll still get some wheelspin off the line on the street with the procharger set-up too at full throttle. So it's all about learning how to use that power. And it's so easy with an automatic transmission to learn that.BTW, with the Trilogy kit the way it comes and the tune that it comes with, you don't ever get any pinging or spark knock at ANY RPM, low or otherwise. It sounds like you have a tuning issue since you've altered the kit (or the person you've bought it from did). Aren't you the one who bought the Trilogy kit from Bill Bowker who previously altered it, and had it on his Marauder?
 
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