MMR identifies a new problem with E-85/racefuel softening the secondary chain guides

[Modular Racing]

Unfortunately the 5.0 Engine was never designed for E-85 operation, the plastic secondary guides are softened quickly by chemicals contained in the E-85 and other race fuels to the point of failure as shown below. Furthermore increased valve spring pressure and load from aftermarket camshafts and cams place the part under extreme load causing it to bend on the outer edges as the hydraulic rod pushes upward to tension the chain. This causes secondary chain failure and ultimately catastrophic engine failure. MMR has the answer for these applications with its new Heat Treated Billet steel guides. The MMR guides eliminate this problem. The MMR chain guides are lubricated by oiling holes to prevent excessive wear and provide reliable operation for both street and strip vehicles and are available now for $99.99pr

These new guides are suitable and recommended for Pump Gas, E-85, Race fuels and Methanol. 2 Guides included for 1 engine. Direct replacement.

 

[cb900f]

Unfortunately the 5.0 Engine was never designed for E-85 operation, the plastic secondary guides are softened quickly by chemicals contained in the E-85 and other race fuels to the point of failure as shown below. Furthermore increased valve spring pressure and load from aftermarket camshafts and cams place the part under extreme load causing it to bend on the outer edges as the hydraulic rod pushes upward to tension the chain. This causes secondary chain failure and ultimately catastrophic engine failure. MMR has the answer for these applications with its new Heat Treated Billet steel guides. The MMR guides eliminate this problem. The MMR chain guides are lubricated by oiling holes to prevent excessive wear and provide reliable operation for both street and strip vehicles and are available now for $99.99pr

These new guides are suitable and recommended for Pump Gas, E-85, Race fuels and Methanol. 2 Guides included for 1 engine. Direct replacement.

The F150 5.0 is flex fuel capable, so they run different guides?

 

[Modular Racing]

The F150 5.0 is flex fuel capable, so they run different guides?

The truck engine has many different specs from the car engine, one of the applicable differences would be the rings gaps - the truck calling out for tighter gaps, meaning less oil pollution. Being that the rings are the one and only line of defense to keep the oil contamination to its lowest we would consider this the main reason. Other factors such as compression ratio are also a factor (lower compression ratio or in the bigger picture lower cylinder pressure have less blow by/oil contamination than higher compression).

Interesting the FORD owners manual states it should not be used continuously or at very least with increased service intervals

"If you operate your vehicle 50% or more of the time on ethanol, you should follow a different maintenance schedule. In addition to this it is also recommended to fill the fuel tank with regular unleaded gasoline once every 3,000 miles (4,828 km). See scheduled maintenance information for more information."

What you see is what you get when you run e-85 constantly. Adding aftermarket camshafts and valvesprings certainly speeds up this process. We certainly dont make these things up! The Guide shown below had less than 700 miles of use on Pure e85 with aftermarket cams and springs, this is one of many that we have seen recently.

 

[Mach828]

The F150 5.0 is flex fuel capable, so they run different guides?

op:

 

[Need4Speed03]

Interesting new problem identified after people have been running these engines (and daily driving them) on E85 for years? Is this one engine you found this on or is there a pattern here? Curious

 

[Modular Racing]

Interesting new problem identified after people have been running these engines (and daily driving them) on E85 for years? Is this one engine you found this on or is there a pattern here? Curious

We certainly understand skepticism, many people did the same with our lower crankshaft gear and Oil pump gears. Our company is on the forefront of development with the coyote engine, our goal is to provide solutions to problems at street and race levels and while you may not have seen or heard anything, we didnt expect you or the general public to have the same experience and knowledge with the engine. Thankfully we are here to provide solutions to the public before they run into the same issues that we have. We have seen and been aware of this problem for years (prior to the coyote engine), the 4.6 secondary guide however was supported by steel on the backside making this problem far less evident. And while we have been aware of the problem we have been simply changing guides routinely on road race and drag race engines. Thankfully we have come up with a solution now which will extend the service life between races etc greatly.

A neat experiment is to take one of the factory guides and submerse it in e85 overnight (an exaggerated version of polluted oil after about 1000 miles), you will see that it has expanded and softened tremendously to the point of failure.

 

[cb900f]

We certainly understand skepticism, many people did the same with our lower crankshaft gear and Oil pump gears. Our company is on the forefront of development with the coyote engine, our goal is to provide solutions to problems at street and race levels and while you may not have seen or heard anything, we didnt expect you or the general public to have the same experience and knowledge with the engine. Thankfully we are here to provide solutions to the public before they run into the same issues that we have. We have seen and been aware of this problem for years (prior to the coyote engine), the 4.6 secondary guide however was supported by steel on the backside making this problem far less evident. And while we have been aware of the problem we have been simply changing guides routinely on road race and drag race engines. Thankfully we have come up with a solution now which will extend the service life between races etc greatly.

A neat experiment is to take one of the factory guides and submerse it in e85 overnight (an exaggerated version of polluted oil after about 1000 miles), you will see that it has expanded and softened tremendously to the point of failure.

I like this idea. Do you think you can perform this test? This would clearly show how this would be a problem.

 

[03Sssnake]

uncontaminated E85|ethanol is not corrosive...it can become mildy acidic if contaminated with large amounts of water, more than 2% by volume. Keep your tank filled up with fresh E85 and you should have no issues...

 

[MustangMikeKy]

Since when is fuel on the timing chains?

 

[03Sssnake]

Since when is fuel on the timing chains?

exactly...you got big ****ing problems if you have that much unburned fuel in your crankcase hosing your chains and tensioners down. This isn't an old school SBC|SBF motor with worn out rings letting a lot of unburned fuel into the crank case....

 

[Modular Racing]

Since when is fuel on the timing chains?

We have all changed oil at some point and had it smell like fuel. Rings are not a perfect seal, they have gaps that allow combustion and fuel to make their way to the oil, it is normal, it happens in every car new or old, if it didnt we would never need to change our oil.

 

[MustangMikeKy]

We have all changed oil at some point and had it smell like fuel. Rings are not a perfect seal, they have gaps that allow combustion and fuel to make their way to the oil, it is normal, it happens in every car new or old, if it didnt we would never need to change our oil.

So a very small percentage of fuel is going to make it into the oil over 3000 miles? and that is going to be corrosive to the guides with a very small mixture of fuel in the oil?

 

[Modular Racing]

Keep your tank filled up with fresh E85 and you should have no issues...

While we certainly wish it was this simple the problem was originally found in well maintained racecars that were always given fresh fuel and drained after every event.

 

[Modular Racing]

So a very small percentage of fuel is going to make it into the oil over 3000 miles? and that is going to be corrosive to the guides with a very small mixture of fuel in the oil?

Correct, it does not take much. Keep in mind with E85 that there is 1.5-1.8 times more fuel in the combustion chamber - even at idle compared to that of a gasoline engine. This quickly Dilutes and Pollutes the oil. In a performance application it is exaggerated because of the richer A/F ratios needed in Turbo and Supercharged applications. Corrosive however would not be the correct term, it is simply a chemical reaction that is softening the plastic allowing the plastic guide to bend and the chain to dig into the guide. We will see if we can post a demonstration video within the next week or so to better explain what happens.

 

[Modular Racing]

Here is a picture of one just submitted from another good customer - this one had 4200 miles on it - pure E85 - not as bad as we have seen but most get the picture. The oil hole is still visible on this one compared to the one in our first post. Once the oil hole gets closed (from the plastic smearing over it) they deteriorate pretty quickly. It seems most of the damage is from the initial start-ups after sitting for a few days and the chain sinking into the plastic - on start up it rips the chain out of the plastic and leaves the type of marks shown. The guides that have been attacked can be easily identified by simply bending them in your hand, a good guide will not move at all, a contaminated guide will bend almost in half with little or no pressure. Strangely enough, if you let them sit for a month or so they harden again (like stock) - we would assume that the chemical that softens them has possibly evaporated at that point?

 

[redline5.0]

That's crazy I DD'd mine on e85 for 8k miles and they look brand new, this was with 85% ethanol. Are these newly built motors with new tensioners or original tensioners. Maybe ford changed up the plastic at some point?

 

[hand-filer]

If you've got enough E-85 in the crankcase for this to happen, you've got bigger issues than f'd up chain guides. I call B.S. on this one.

 

[Modular Racing]

If you've got enough E-85 in the crankcase for this to happen, you've got bigger issues than f'd up chain guides. I call B.S. on this one.

I think you may mis-understand, it takes very little to soften the guides, just like a drop of water can turn a bucket of oil milky after you mix it. We certainly value your opinion however. Unfortunately it seems like we deal with alot of scrutiny with new parts, and we understand this, everyone said the same about the lower crankshaft gears and then they started turning up broken all across the country. Bottom line - dont shoot the messenger - we are here to help (and yes - we are a business and here to sell things that people NEED - we certainly have never built anything that people dont need, many of the products that we manufacture have come from our own needs - this being one of them). E 85 attacks plastic, this is very well known - google it

Have great night guys! Have questions, PM, call or email anytime!
MMR
1-877-MOD-POWR

 

[CobraRed_96_GT]

Thanks for pushing more product development, MMR. If people don't need them, they won't buy them.
Companies developing new/aftermarket solutions for mustangs is always a good thing. At the very worst is creates more aftermarket competition which is good again for the consumer.

Click over to the Volvo forums, guys. They have a new product come out for their car every 1-2 years or so, or flux core weld a bunch of mix match stuff together to make it work.

 

[fulanititoo8198]

Looks like a nice replacement and sturdier part regardless I'd certainly run it if and when I get a built motor.