Let's start a real fire storm - What was the pinnacle of the Mustang nameplate?

[Corbic]

Terminator.

The 05-10 Shelby is barely faster, considerably fatter and is aging very poorly (styling). Terminators remain highly desirable, highly competitive and are essentially the American Supra. I believe the choice to use Manley Rods was the biggest factor in this. For whatever reason American manufacturers have always refused to use forged cranks and quality rods. Older blocks would split at higher power and main-caps would walk at higher RPM.

The Supercharged Terminator also setup the firestorm of modern big-power muscle cars. Many of the vintage Mustangs are cool and I'm sure they where important in their time, however, they are now very very old. Fewer people actually remember these cars new each year and their overall impact and influence on the market and scene is minimal.

The fact that Ford is moving away from the Retro styling of '05-'10 is a strong indicator that the fad and most of the buyers are finally dying off.

The recent Cobra R's are far to rare to really matter. Big-V8, super limited production and all tucked away in people's pull barns. The '14-'15 GT500 is nice, but they ultimately don't offer much more potential over the Terminator. The money people are spending on rebuilding the 5.8 and making them handle 900whp is just mind boggling. Then add in the e$25-30k premium for the car...

 

[mc01svt]

the only logical is answer is the 85-93 foxbody 5.0s. These were the last mustangs that had good performance and were AFFORDABLE by anyone and everyone. A kid in highschool could buy one just the same as a working class man with a family. They werent rare, parts were dirt cheap and you could literally do a cam/heads swap in your garage on a sunday afternoon.

runner up would be the 03/04 cobras. While i like the terminator the harsh reality is they were made for a measly 2yrs, poorly marketed and 99% of the world doesn't know a terminator from a v6. Literally everyone in the world recognizes the 5.0 badge whether you are a car enthusiast or not.

the 13 GT500 and the 16 GT350r are the fastest but IMO mustangs have always represented performance available to the common man. Neither of these $60k+ monsters are accessible to working class families. Avg Joe that works a $40k per year blue collar job has no chance in hell of walking into a dealership and buying one. I would guess the average shelby buyer makes well over $100k and is over 50yrs old. Thats a top 7% income, not what i define as the original intended market of mustangs. Just my 2 cents

 

[KingBlack]

COBRA II
Done deal

 

[James Snover]

03/04 cobra hands down.

Agreed! IRS, iron block, aluminum heads, factory supercharged 4-valve DOHC V8 & six speed! All modern high-performance cars today are descended from it, in that if they had not sold, if they had not performed, the muscle car scene as it is today would not have come to be. But in addition to that, there is something the '03/'04's have that modern cars don't. It was rough around the edges, all edges, because they could only take what was already there and tweak it to the extent they could and still slap a warranty on it. And they had to do it in a hurry. The cars somehow seem to have caught that up in their makeup, as well. You can see it was thought out in every detail by people who loved what they were doing, I guess. From the engineers to the people on the assembly lines.

So they rattle. And shake. There's some body roll, there is the wheel hop issue with the IRS, they've got some clunks (like when turning sharply left at low speeds) and yet, somehow, the rough edges just added to it!

 

[MovingZen]

2016 gt350r

 

[Corbic]

the only logical is answer is the 85-93 foxbody 5.0s. These were the last mustangs that had good performance and were AFFORDABLE by anyone and everyone. A kid in highschool could buy one just the same as a working class man with a family. They werent rare, parts were dirt cheap and you could literally do a cam/heads swap in your garage on a sunday afternoon.

I agree and disagree.

We can all agree the Fox Mustang saved the nameplate and really the whole segment. If it wasn't for the Fox we'd have ended up in a world of strictly true-sports cars and FWD sports compacts.

It was simple, affordable and modern looking when new.


However, I think you are wrong on the pricing. Average new price of a car in 1985 was $9,000. A Mustang GT was $9,950 new. Minimum wage (Highschool Kid) in 1985 was $3.35 ($7.41 in 2016). Today kids make $7.75 to $10 on average. Average new car price in 2016 is now $33,530. A Mustang GT is $32,395, its actually under average.

Another thing, in 1985, used cars where absolute garbage. A kid in HS in 1985 would be looking at a used '77 Mustang II junker. Today a kid could pick up a New Edge for his summer's savings and actually have something resembling performance.

As for heads - Sure, Mod Motors brought an end to Intake, Heads and Cam. However, a 1985 Mustang really really needed Intake, Heads and Cam. Modern cars honestly don't need any of that crap. A modern FI system like a Vortech S/C costs less then IHC did back then and will result in just as much if not more gains.

runner up would be the 03/04 cobras. While i like the terminator the harsh reality is they were made for a measly 2yrs, poorly marketed and 99% of the world doesn't know a terminator from a v6. Literally everyone in the world recognizes the 5.0 badge whether you are a car enthusiast or not.

I have to disagree. Ford continues to try and make the Terminator, they just call them Shelby's because Old-Farts will pay $5k over sticker for one. Anyone that actually cares about cars or is remotely aware of the world knows what a Cobra/Terminator is. Everyone knows instantly what the howl of a Kenne Bell indicates. Those schleps that can't tell a Cobra from a V6 are the same schleps that have no idea what a "5.0" badge even means, they just know Vanilla Ice was singing about them. (I could even be mean and argue they are the same people that would confuse a Fox for a Escort.)

the 13 GT500 and the 16 GT350r are the fastest but IMO mustangs have always represented performance available to the common man. Neither of these $60k+ monsters are accessible to working class families. Avg Joe that works a $40k per year blue collar job has no chance in hell of walking into a dealership and buying one. I would guess the average shelby buyer makes well over $100k and is over 50yrs old. Thats a top 7% income, not what i define as the original intended market of mustangs. Just my 2 cents

Yeah, they are essentially "Ford Corvettes". One of the things that's always made the Mustang great was actually how lousy the are stock. This is why there is sooo much aftermarket. You take a rather ho-hum car with minimal power, poor handling, ugly wheels etc and then turn it into a real beast.

 

[dom418]

By definition, the new 350 is the pinnacle of the mustang.

You guys are debating which is the most influential. There are so many mustangs which have changed the game.

 

[thomas91169]

74 Mustang II with the 2.3l I4.

 

[Mr. Mach-ete]

If we are talking about factory stock performance vehicle with zero after market modifications the 350R takes the prize. I'm sure in a few years when Ford comes out with their New Cobra it will most likely be crowned the new king. We're talking the best performing Mustang as of todays date.

 

[CobraBob]

New GT-350R without a doubt. Best Mustang ever built and it's getting a lot of attention. For now, since Ford keeps improving their premium hi-po Mustangs.

 

[Tob]

74 Mustang II with the 2.3l I4.

Definitely a trailblazer.

 

[93 347 Cobra]

Anyone who thinks the 03/04 Cobras are best has a serious case of penis envy and won't admit it. This is coming from a former owner of an 03 convertible. 13/14 GT500 or GT350R. The 13/14 drops off the list when the next GT500 comes out (in all likelihood).

I don't even want to bother listing all the issues with the Terminators. Great cars for the time and an all-time great value but there's no comparison to the 10+ GT500s and shouldn't even be in the conversation with the 350/350R.

 

[Sinister04L]

However, I think you are wrong on the pricing. Average new price of a car in 1985 was $9,000. A Mustang GT was $9,950 new. Minimum wage (Highschool Kid) in 1985 was $3.35 ($7.41 in 2016). Today kids make $7.75 to $10 on average. Average new car price in 2016 is now $33,530. A Mustang GT is $32,395, its actually under average.

If those numbers are accurate, the price of cars (including Mustangs) has outpaced inflation and salaries, making a Mustang more affordable in 1985. However a minimum wage earner isn't going to be able to afford a new Mustang in either era. I remember those $3.35/hr days quite well lol.

 

[GloomySVT]

2016/17 GT350, and this is coming from a Cobro. FPC motor in an American car. It has higher low end torque naturally aspirated, occurring at roughly the same rpm as the Terminator produces it's maximum, and produces power all the way throughout the rpm range, whilst revving to a higher limit. Then comes the interior refinement factor, and magnetic ride suspension. What would put icing on the cake would be a 10 speed paddle shift auto option.

 

[MG2V]

Best all around Mustang straight from the factory?

I say 2016/2017 GT350r

 

[Blk04L]

It's a tough question.

You got the GT500's and Boss back in the day.

You have the Cobra (03-04) which had straight line power and an IRS system.

Then you have the straight line monster 10 years later with the 13-14 GT500 with 662HP

Now you have the still fast GT350, in a straight line, but can also turn on a dime.

 

[nxhappy]

13/14 gt500

 

[Serpent]

GT350R
5.2 high revving FPC motor
Carbon Fiber wheels
6 piston front/4 piston rear brake calipers
two-peice rotors all around
magneride
MPSC2 tires from factory that is finally wide enough to be in a sports car
= Pinnacle of Mustang nameplate

Great car, even multi-millionaire Ben Treynor bought TWO, GT350 and GT350R. He also has two S197 cars, both not street legal! :coolman:

 

[GT Premi]

03-04 Cobra

Exotic level horsepower at a reasonable price. The Mustang has always been the working man's sports car. Sure the Shelby's come with more power but not for $35k. Bang for your buck, I vote Terminator.

The MSRP on a '03/'04 Cobra was not remotely reasonable in its day, and dealers weren't too willing to come down on the price. You had to have an "in" with somebody to get one below MSRP, unless it was used. I was a "working man" making the U.S. average household income on my own and still couldn't afford to buy one. Not unless I slept in it, too. The average family car price was still down in the $20Ks. The MSRP on a Mustang GT of the same year was somewhere in the low- to mid-$20Ks. The Cobra's MSRP was well over $30K.

Terminator.

The 05-10 Shelby is barely faster, considerably fatter and is aging very poorly (styling). Terminators remain highly desirable, highly competitive and are essentially the American Supra. I believe the choice to use Manley Rods was the biggest factor in this. For whatever reason American manufacturers have always refused to use forged cranks and quality rods. Older blocks would split at higher power and main-caps would walk at higher RPM.

The Supercharged Terminator also setup the firestorm of modern big-power muscle cars. Many of the vintage Mustangs are cool and I'm sure they where important in their time, however, they are now very very old. Fewer people actually remember these cars new each year and their overall impact and influence on the market and scene is minimal.

The fact that Ford is moving away from the Retro styling of '05-'10 is a strong indicator that the fad and most of the buyers are finally dying off.

The recent Cobra R's are far to rare to really matter. Big-V8, super limited production and all tucked away in people's pull barns. The '14-'15 GT500 is nice, but they ultimately don't offer much more potential over the Terminator. The money people are spending on rebuilding the 5.8 and making them handle 900whp is just mind boggling. Then add in the e$25-30k premium for the car...

That post is dripping with shameful bias. I had to clutch my pearls when I read the underlined part. The vast majority of Cobras don't even bet pushed to the stock HP level of the '13/'14 GT500 without all kinds of engine fortifications and supporting mods. I'd like to see a 900WHP Cobra that the owner isn't sweating bullets every time he takes it out of the garage because he's scared the engine is going to explode at the next WOT run or that it's just going to leave him stranded somewhere because it refuses to run. Go check out ThatDudeInBlue's Youtube channel and look up one of his videos from Mustang Week 2014 where he "reviews" one of the Cobras that was in attendance. It would barely run, and it was only making 600WHP.

the only logical is answer is the 85-93 foxbody 5.0s. These were the last mustangs that had good performance and were AFFORDABLE by anyone and everyone. A kid in highschool could buy one just the same as a working class man with a family. They werent rare, parts were dirt cheap and you could literally do a cam/heads swap in your garage on a sunday afternoon.

runner up would be the 03/04 cobras. While i like the terminator the harsh reality is they were made for a measly 2yrs, poorly marketed and 99% of the world doesn't know a terminator from a v6. Literally everyone in the world recognizes the 5.0 badge whether you are a car enthusiast or not.

the 13 GT500 and the 16 GT350r are the fastest but IMO mustangs have always represented performance available to the common man. Neither of these $60k+ monsters are accessible to working class families. Avg Joe that works a $40k per year blue collar job has no chance in hell of walking into a dealership and buying one. I would guess the average shelby buyer makes well over $100k and is over 50yrs old. Thats a top 7% income, not what i define as the original intended market of mustangs. Just my 2 cents

Some strong arguments there. Price being a factor, I would almost have to agree. However, at minimum wages, a Mustang GT was still too expensive. I tried to buy a 1-year used one way back when I was an E4/CPL in the Army. After car payment and insurance, I would've barely been able to even keep gas in the tank.

On topic, I was initially going to say the GT350 (non-R), but reading comments about price changed my mind. The GT350 in any version is all but un-buyable for any rational person. (Thanks, ADMs!:mj And they're still expensive at MSRP; a great value, but still expensive. The GT500s (and Cobras) have always been hella expensive compared to their platform siblings. The Boss 302s weren't exactly inexpensive, and objectively on the streets, what were you getting above what you could get in a regular GT for most to justify the cost delta? I'm not even going to reminisce about the bad ol' days of car tech from the '60s and '70s.

So, for me, looking at the whole spectrum of price, cost-to-own, performance, and general usability, I think I have to say the '11 - '14 V6 Mustang is actually the "pinnacle" of Mustangs.

 

[Corbic]

That post is dripping with shameful bias. I had to clutch my pearls when I read the underlined part. The vast majority of Cobras don't even bet pushed to the stock HP level of the '13/'14 GT500 without all kinds of engine fortifications and supporting mods. I'd like to see a 900WHP Cobra that the owner isn't sweating bullets every time he takes it out of the garage because he's scared the engine is going to explode at the next WOT run or that it's just going to leave him stranded somewhere because it refuses to run. Go check out ThatDudeInBlue's Youtube channel and look up one of his videos from Mustang Week 2014 where he "reviews" one of the Cobras that was in attendance. It would barely run, and it was only making 600WHP.

MSRP on a Cobra Terminator was $33,295. I honestly don't remember any ADMs but I do remember there where leftovers back then. They hype was not the insane "save it for Barret-Jackson" nonsense back then.

$34k in 2003 is only $43k today. That's a far cry from the +$60k price of a 14-15 GT500.

Dave makes fun videos, but a single modified 11 year old Terminator at a car show is not indicative of every Cobra ever made.

As far as power capability, we all know the 4.6 4v can make +2,000hp.

Is the 5.8 better stock for stock? Sure, I guess. But when it comes to building engines and racing cost HAS to be a factor. Stuff will break, PERIOD.

Having readily available inexpensive parts is critical. It's what makes a Mustang a Mustang. I'm sure Ferrari has some fantastic engines, but when you pop one, your not running down to the scrap yard and getting a new block for $80. This is also why the Windsor is more popular than the Cleveland. Windsors are EVERYWHERE and cheap.

The 5.8 is both rare and retarded expensive. Pop one and you are not grabbing some Aviator heads, a Lincoln block and piecing something together for a few grand. There is even a thread talking about how it costs $30-50k to build a 900whp GT500.

At 900whp, in both cars, engine and trans are coming out. The entire car needs to be modified and prepped. Expectations for reliability should go out the window. Once you are at 1000whp you really need to be running turbos and if you want to be competitive, it's automatic time. Can't get locked out of 4th on a Powerglide.