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Injectors + BAP + E85 + serious boost; why is it considered a no-no by so many people?

Discussion in 'The Blower Bistro' started by Kiohtee, May 10, 2019.

  1. Kiohtee

    Kiohtee On3 Is ChEaP jUnK Established Member

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    Strictly curious and I'm honestly not looking to pick a fight, but against the opinion of pretty much every Tom, Dick and Harry prior to my build, I trusted my builder and tuner when they recommended the FIC 1200s and a KB BAP as my fuel system mods for the goal of 800rwhp. A lot of people said the car would probably starve itself on the dyno or within the first couple of street pulls, but lo and behold here I am, nearly 20K miles later and it's running as strong as ever.

    So if we have any tuners here or anybody with real world knowledge, what's the theory behind the keyboard warriors thinking injectors and a BAP are an issue when trying to make decent power? Granted I probably wouldn't try this setup if I was aiming for 1,000+, but still.
     
  2. q6543

    q6543 Member Established Member

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    I think it's a liability/reliability issue.
     
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  3. GodStang

    GodStang Well-Known Member Established Member

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    Vendors pushing to sell you items and people believe it the truth since the person trying to sell them something told them. I was told my setup that I just pulled (Triple GSS342s, Fore Return hat, FRPP 80s) was good for 500-550rwhp on E85 by an "expert" at a big name vendor. I never bothered to tell him that we have been right at 800rw for ~7 years with this setup and we had a bit of room left still.

    I am not a fan of a BAP for other reasons. I ran one for about 5 years and had plenty of issues with it till I removed it.
     
  4. Kiohtee

    Kiohtee On3 Is ChEaP jUnK Established Member

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    Right. But what is that liability and/or reliability issue that can be backed by fact? Or even personal experience that isn't limited to just one or two examples out of many? I get that a BAP could expire and then you're on the hook for a new motor, but any number of things could go wrong instantly, also leaving me on the hook for a new motor. Just because there's a probability of it happening doesn't mean we should shun people away from the idea of doing it.

    Now common sense dictates that of course if the probability starts to climb to an exponentially high number then maybe it's time to look into a more foolproof, robust system. But I feel like the guy below, he's on the right path with where this came from...

    This is where my initial theory lays with how the myth came to be. I would also rank oil pump gears as a myth to a certain extent. Yes there are obvious failures and nobody can deny how brittle the factory Ford gears are, but it's almost a universal thought that OPGs are recommended at a certain power level or when one decides to throw forced induction at the car. I promise you that OPGs don't read horsepower and/or torque levels and decide to come apart at a certain level. They also don't recognize that a car is boosted or sprayed. OPGs will fail solely on their ability to handle vibrations which are caused in large part due to bouncing off the limiter, two stepping, missing a shift, etc.

    As you can probably conclude from this post, if you didn't already know, my car also retains the factory OPGs and CG. My thought process here was that it isn't quiet as violent as any blower car as far as vibrations and the 6R80 should keep itself in check well enough not to miss shift or bang the limiter. So far so good.
     
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  5. GodStang

    GodStang Well-Known Member Established Member

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    Ya my car also retains the factory OPGs and so far so good. Now my stock timing chain tensioners went and too my engine with it years ago.
     
  6. slo984now

    slo984now AKA 01yellerCobra Established Member

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    I never would have said it would starve itself. I'm not a fan of the BAP because it's another failure point and it's driving the pumps beyond their limits. I'd rather have a system that can handle my power goals. I know a lot of people run the BAP with no issues. I even ran one on my last car just to get some head room before I went return style. I don't know what they cost anymore, but I know for a time the cost of the BAP and a set of GT pumps weren't too far off. So for the Cobra guys it made more sense to me to go with the pumps.
     
  7. slow306stang

    slow306stang Well-Known Member Established Member

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    More than likely you're at the limit of your current fuel system. A supercharged car at the same 800whp wouldn't have enough fuel to feed it. I'd be willing to be that 90% of the power adder cars are supercharged so the saying that 800whp is too much is probably true.
     
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  8. Kiohtee

    Kiohtee On3 Is ChEaP jUnK Established Member

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    I totally understand and agree that a BAP is just another piece of the puzzle that could potentially go wrong. But I had Facebook keyboard warriors everywhere just absolutely insisting that my car wouldn't last more than a month at best. Not to mention two big name Coyote tuners straight up tell me my car just could not make more than ~700rwhp with the injectors and BAP setup. Of course they all went silent when I made my 20K mile update post. LMAO

    I'm not at the limit yet, according to Bob. He said he typically makes 890-925rwhp with this setup. I cried for a safe tune because 900rwhp on stock everything sketched me out, so he threw his typical 15psi at it and backed the timing down until it made 800rwhp, which was my request. I'm really regretting not having it tuned at 900 and then just turning it down myself. D'oh!
     
  9. slow306stang

    slow306stang Well-Known Member Established Member

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    What kind of dyno did you use? What does the car run at the track? In those 20,000 miles how many times has the car been ran out to 140+mph?
     
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  10. gimmie11s

    gimmie11s Dont be a Hybred Established Member

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    If it's "tuned" for 800, it's tuned for 900 assuming you have enough fuel.

    Turn it up.
     
  11. blownstang4.6

    blownstang4.6 Active Member Established Member

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    I've been running a bap on my GT and now my Mach for 7 years without an issue. Not making as much power as you, but switched to E85 last year without an issue. Hellcats make like 900-1000rwhp with the addition of a bap, so I don't see why people are so against them.
     
  12. Kiohtee

    Kiohtee On3 Is ChEaP jUnK Established Member

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    It was Bob’s Dynojet. It hasn’t and probably won’t go to the track since I’m still otherwise an all stock car. I have no interest in the amount of parts this car will inevitably break. It has seen several 140+ pulls and two 160 pulls.

    Yeah, not sure that’s how that works. Lol

    It’s a timing issue anyway, so no way to just go in there and up it. It definitely doesn’t need more boost and I’m already double the spring.

    The only real argument I can see and validate is the whole “it’s another thing to go wrong” stance.
     
  13. slow306stang

    slow306stang Well-Known Member Established Member

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    Without the load of an actual track pass is why your car defies logic. I could put twin 62's on my ecoboost f150 and drive it for 200,000 miles because I don't beat on it.
     
  14. Kiohtee

    Kiohtee On3 Is ChEaP jUnK Established Member

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    Is there really that much difference in load from a dig versus a roll?
     
  15. slow306stang

    slow306stang Well-Known Member Established Member

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    Yes. Dyno numbers are made with a cooled down car, hood open, a single gear pull, SAE or STD correction of 1-5, radial vs drag radial, tire pressure, loading of car on top of rollers or behind rollers, and placement of the dyno room temperature sensor.

    The track takes your car out of it's comfort zone where all of those items do not matter. An unloaded no traction car at 12.4 at 128mph will not have the same load as a 9.60 car at 140mph car. Both make the same WHP.
     
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  16. Kiohtee

    Kiohtee On3 Is ChEaP jUnK Established Member

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    As long as it lives I really don’t care. Lol

    It’s working on the streets and that was the goal from day one. I stand by the combination.
     
  17. slow306stang

    slow306stang Well-Known Member Established Member

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    You made a post explaining why your combo is still working. I explained why it hasn't failed yet. Your setup will fail after some actual drag strip numbers come out. Good luck.
     
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  18. Kiohtee

    Kiohtee On3 Is ChEaP jUnK Established Member

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    Like I said, no track here, just Mexico. It’s working good with a tire and I’d love to see what it does, but I’m not about that breaking everything between the motor mounts and half shafts anymore. Now inevitably the car will fail for some reason at some point because it’s making a lot of power on stock equipment, but that’s a given.
     
  19. Chancey

    Chancey Auto Affection Established Member

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    Man Im with ya on anything can happen, and its never stopped me from modding. However oil pump gears, changing to BAP, etc., can go bad and the gears are just good insurance. Now if I had a weekend warrior and never touched redline I wouldnt worry too much as a rule about such. I am a nut about maintenance, always keeping fresh oil/fluids and such. Its weird that one car can be high miles and abused to death while never giving issues, then another with the same everything fail early on. My point being if it is “possible” and the upgrade is really hard/expensive I might (usually) run the risk and not keep it in redline. I do always drive mine hard though and usually every single day. So when you say “probable” failure, Im gonna go the best easy insurance route on my GT500 engine. I had a heavy modded and supercharged 5.0 in my 2017 mustang GT. EVERYONE said get the oil pump gears and crank sprocket as hard as you drive it! I did because it was’nt to terribly hard, just a lot of work (kind of) and definitely good insurance. I had about 700-750 whp. But I knew two guys who had 850-900 plus whp on twin turbos that ran the crap out of them without any trouble with the gears. Again on the other hand, I knew (online at least) about 20 guys who had my kind of power and the gears came about and bye bye motor! Maybe they couldnt drive bang the limiter, or whatever but made me scared to not replace them. I have found that the “absolute must do advise” that different tuner or builders give is usually subjective and based on their personal experience and the guys in their circle. Im still at stock levels with my 2013, but plan to build in the not too distant future.
     
  20. gimmie11s

    gimmie11s Dont be a Hybred Established Member

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    Timing? How so

    Not sure I understand


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