serpentnoir said:
Sorry if my previous post made me come across as a n00b. I've seen enough turbo/sc set-up's to know how to distinguish a "fair" comparison from a built engine vs stock internals slaughterfest
-J
How many getting the KB kit?
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Sorry if my previous post made me come across as a n00b. I've seen enough turbo/sc set-up's to know how to distinguish a "fair" comparison from a built engine vs stock internals slaughterfest
-J
QU!CK said:Sorry if my previous post made me come across as a n00b. I've seen enough turbo/sc set-up's to know how to distinguish a "fair" comparison from a built engine vs stock internals slaughterfest
-J
No problem.
Keep in mind that it's always the centri guys that bitch about the cost of KB blowers and the lack of power. They always like to extol the HP prowess of the centri until they come back a few months later with a broken engine and start asking about forged this and that....... Give me a forged engine and I'll be running 700rwhp all day long. But that is beside the point.
Try to find KB owners that have a broken engine. Not many except for the 03 guys that run insane boost levels.
serpentnoir said:
Hmmm...try to find many 99/01 KB owners PERIOD.
Sorry serpent, I couldn't resist, but you and I both know it's true. There are just not that many KB'd 99/01 cars running around. It isn't surprising that you don't see anyone having broken anything yet. The kit hasn't been out all that long. Most of the centri engines that I recall seeing break have been at 450 RWHP+ levels. The KBs seem to be putting out 'only' 400HP.
As far as centri vs. roots, you guys want to scream about 13 psi vs. 9 psi not being fair. What difference does it make? If I can put out 15 PSI for the same price as you guys putting out 9 psi, that seems like a fair comparison to me. The cost/power ratio seems to be the best indicator since we are comparing two different methods of supercharging. A psi-to-psi comparison is not going to be accurate of what can be done with either setup.
I recall at least two 6psi procharger setups in the 430+ HP power range.
lemosley01 said:
I meant all KB owners. 5.0L, 4.6 SHOC and DOHC.
Cost to power is an easy comparison. In fact it's the easiest. The centrifugal always come out a winner. Driveability vs cost is really where the KB shines. But how do you measure "driveability"? Maybe we should compare torque at 2000 and 3000RPM. Better yet, throttle response from idle.
By the way, you will not be able to put 15psi on a stock DOHC 96-01 motor. At least not for any useful length of time. Centri, KB or otherwise. 13psi is very "iffy" also, especially non-intercooled. So this comparison is a moot point.
I see where this is going. Let's compare centris at 13 psi on a built motor to KB at 6.5psi on a stock motor. Now we have a real comparison :rollseyes Unless I can no longer read, this is what seems to be implied here.
I guess the KB camp and the centri camp will forever agree to disagree. If I was a betting man I would say that within 10 years the centris will have for the most part disappeared from "street" applications. The small remaining portion will be due to lower cost vs the twin screw. This assumes that the manufacturers will not make improvemements to manufacturing process/costs. That is unlikely.
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Well, I had a big-assed response posted, but I lost it when I closed the damn browser window.
As far as comparing all KB installs to all centrifugal installs, you can throw out most 5.0Ls because they didn't come with internals that break at the drop of the hat. They're more likely to blow head gaskets than crush a piston or rod. And there are more centrifugal installs than there are KB setups, doesn't it seem logical you would also hear of more people breaking things with a centrifugal setup and fewer breaking things with their KB setups?
A fair comparison would be a procharger setup running 6,8, and 10 lbs of boost. vs. both of the KB kits. I'm not implying a 13psi setup and forged shortblock would be in any way a fair comparison, but you are wanting to compare a totally subjective quantity (drivability vs cost) to one that is objective (power vs cost). In what way is that fair?
I would like to have a KB kit to try out. I'm sure the torque on demand is loads of fun, but for what you pay for a 9.5 PSI KB, you could ALMOST (within a few hundred dollars) buy a forged shortblock and centrifigual setup and have loads more power and an engine you don't have to worry about failing under boost. Not only that, but you aren't beta-testing and struggling with this product. I've been following these KB threads for a while. Some of you guys have the patience of Mother Theresa. I would have likely choked someone by now if I had gone through what you have.
Get back to me in 10 years about the centri vs. roots/twin-screw installs. My money says that most aftermarket installs of superchargers will still be centrifugal. The reason is that roots/ts style blowers are application specific and therefore just cost more to manufacture because you have to replace the intake. It's exactly the same reason that the procharger setups cost more on the 03 Cobras - they have to provide an intake for the blower to blow into.
As far as comparing all KB installs to all centrifugal installs, you can throw out most 5.0Ls because they didn't come with internals that break at the drop of the hat. They're more likely to blow head gaskets than crush a piston or rod. And there are more centrifugal installs than there are KB setups, doesn't it seem logical you would also hear of more people breaking things with a centrifugal setup and fewer breaking things with their KB setups?
A fair comparison would be a procharger setup running 6,8, and 10 lbs of boost. vs. both of the KB kits. I'm not implying a 13psi setup and forged shortblock would be in any way a fair comparison, but you are wanting to compare a totally subjective quantity (drivability vs cost) to one that is objective (power vs cost). In what way is that fair?
I would like to have a KB kit to try out. I'm sure the torque on demand is loads of fun, but for what you pay for a 9.5 PSI KB, you could ALMOST (within a few hundred dollars) buy a forged shortblock and centrifigual setup and have loads more power and an engine you don't have to worry about failing under boost. Not only that, but you aren't beta-testing and struggling with this product. I've been following these KB threads for a while. Some of you guys have the patience of Mother Theresa. I would have likely choked someone by now if I had gone through what you have.
Get back to me in 10 years about the centri vs. roots/twin-screw installs. My money says that most aftermarket installs of superchargers will still be centrifugal. The reason is that roots/ts style blowers are application specific and therefore just cost more to manufacture because you have to replace the intake. It's exactly the same reason that the procharger setups cost more on the 03 Cobras - they have to provide an intake for the blower to blow into.
how about..
Eaton- 462 rwhp
Somethign isnt right if the KB is making less than my car?
Eaton- 462 rwhp
Somethign isnt right if the KB is making less than my car?
serpentnoir said:
I just think looking at the torque curve per rpm would be the true comparison.. its done been said that us centri guys are dyno queens... and it true we do make more top end power you roots guys make all the torque.. but all in all I bet even with way less boost your car makes a much prettier torque curve!
QU!CK said:
nahh I am doing everything on the DL..... hoping to "detune the car" then here in a few months do my cams and make 45 rwhp more on the same boost. Looking to be at around 600 again with less boost.
VenomousSVT said:
Ya think?
That's a 9 psi pull I made back in mid-December, and that was with REALLY crappy gas in the tank (best guess about 92 octane) and the knock sensors going insane. I was planning on filling up at my dyno shop, but they were out of Trick 101 when I got there, and I was gonna pay for the time anyway, so I ran it.
I happened to be monitoring the knock sensors and timing on this run with my scan tool (out of fear and loathing of what might happen), and I am relieved to say with absolute certainty that the KB tune does, indeed, monitor the KS1 and KS2 inputs. If it hadn't been for that, my block would probably now have more windows it than a 5-bedroom Cape Cod on a beachfront lot, 'cause above 6K the knock sensors started going off like a pan of Jiffy Pop on a blazing campfire.
My dyno operator, whose opinion I value highly, tells me that the car would have easily been good for 450 - 470 at the top with race fuel in the tank instead of the tree-hugger swill. One of these days when I have the time and inclination, I'll spin the roller again with the motor running on the correct fuel to see if he's right. I haven't gotten around it yet, because I really dig the way the car drives, and that's what counts for me, not the numbers.
I can roll into the loud pedal at ridiculously low RPM, and the car pushes me back in the seat like my 455 cid W30 used to. That's EXACTLY what I was after, since mine isn't a track car, and it isn't a dyno queen. YES, I'm happy, AND I'm getting just about all I'm willing to risk taking from that itty bitty stock bottom end. Others may choose to go for more power, but I'll stick with LONGER LIFE.
T- :rolling:
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Double"O" said:
I believe others have said they've had problems with the knock sensors falsing. That's not the case here - its low octane. During a November dyno session with a tankful of Trick 101 they were silent as church mice.
Even 93 isn't really enough octane for a dyno pull with a boosted motor that's already 9.85:1 N/A.
T-
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VenomousSVT said:
Sweet, let us know how everything turns out :beer: and dyno queen or not, you're car is still a friggin beast!
-J
Double"O" said:
I wasn't monitoring the IAT during that session, but it was fairly cool December night and the rollup door next to the dyno was wide open, so I imagine the intake air temps were pretty low - certainly lower than they were during the November dyno session.
Taz said:
I think the centri guys and the eaton guys should all meet up and compare weenie sizes.
Cobie03 said:
For anyone wanting that kind of power on our cars it should be between procharger and a nice turbo setup...IMO
dfw99cobra said:
Yawnnnn ...
I think that sentiment has already been expressed once or twice in this very thread. You're kinda beating a dead horse, so tell ya what - you buy what floats YOUR boat and I'll buy what floats MINE. Okay?
:sleeping:
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