your tuned by AED correct? or was that HPP?
I shot a PM over to Shaun @ AED so he can chime in.
Maybe this will give us some information of what issues hes run into.
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Cost-effective NA power
- Thread starter t-ray
- Start date
your tuned by AED correct? or was that HPP?
I shot a PM over to Shaun @ AED so he can chime in.
Maybe this will give us some information of what issues hes run into.
You don't need LTs to run mid 11's. Shaun is practically in the 10's on stockers. I have run enough mph for mid to low 11's on stockers (and I am hoping to get that ET down next time out now that I have a proper shifter and adjustable rear shocks).
Here is what I know. The further you place the 02 sensor from the stock location, the more potential issues you have in determining A/F ratio. Now, this is not something that only Shaun has discovered. I was reading a lengthy build up thread on a Coyote Stock car and they were having the same problems with their longtubes. After communicating with Ford, the 02s were moved up, into the actual primary tubes to get better A/F readings. This was done per Ford's tech line when installing a sealed Coyote motor for NMRA class racing. So, it is not merely hearsay, but a legitimate and known issue.
If you want them, get them. Like I said before, they are a nice addition to the car in terms of sound and appearance. They also will give you a HP gain. I would check out the Kooks as they are a mid length header and they move the 02 less than a full longtube.
Mike
that's fair, but it still doesn't explain how some people are having no known issues.
I like the kooks want the kooks, but they want the moon for em. If there wasnt some many other less expensive options....
I just kind of wanted to start a better base for F/I this time around and was thinking LT's were a good place to start.
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At HPP by Manny.
Nice. Oddly enough Clint @ True Street has an 11 5.0L they did LT's on and are saying the same thing. "what issue with 02 position"
That's weird never heard of that.
My JPC longtubes have the WB O2 sensor in one of the primary tubes. They will also bolt up to the OEM h-pipe, or an after market x-pipe.
O2 sensors read temp not flow. But I wont call you a moron. Just uninformed.
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Hmmm, you're from my area.
kdanner
Banned
Oh boy. So O2 doesn't represent a molecule of Oxygen, and that isn't what they measure? Well I've sure had it wrong for a long long time.........:nono:
The Ford Wideband system is a closed loop heated sensor.
Based on infered exhaust temp the ECU heats the wideband O2's.
Move the O2's back and they need more heater duty cycle to read correctly.
This means changing the infered exhaust temps to keep the O2's up to proper temp.
Everything in these damn Copperheads is infered... Makes it very difficult to properly tune!
After extensive testing we now have a file for longtubes that corrects the transport delays and rich idle conditions.
Based on infered exhaust temp the ECU heats the wideband O2's.
Move the O2's back and they need more heater duty cycle to read correctly.
This means changing the infered exhaust temps to keep the O2's up to proper temp.
Everything in these damn Copperheads is infered... Makes it very difficult to properly tune!
After extensive testing we now have a file for longtubes that corrects the transport delays and rich idle conditions.
NO it doesn't measure O2, it measures temp, the leaner the mix the higher the temp. When the o2 sensor sees a high temp condition it makes the computer aware and the computer makes the a/f richer thus cooling the exhaust temp. That's why we get such good milage with computer driven fuel injection systems. The computer/o2 sensor keep an almost lean condition. But of course you've know that for a long long long time.
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Am I understanding that some of the headers have the o2 in one of the tubes before they all join? That seems iffy....wouldn't you mostly be going on what that one cylinder is doing?
My thoughts exactly.. What happens if that cylinder injector goes bad?(lean or rich)
It's the wrong approach to solving a tune issue.
These cars have individual cylinder fuel multipliers and they use the rear narrow band O2's to 'check' the calibration of the widebands. Definately NOT a good idea to install the factory wideband into a single primary tube simply to correct the O2 heating issue and transport delays.
Shaun, thank you for informing. I appreciate the "inside" data that most folks don't care to discuss. :beer:
Mika
Mika
x2
Then why do they use a $100 O2 sensor and not a $10 thermocouple?
HowStuffWorks "How does the oxygen sensor in a car work?"
"Th*e oxygen sensor is positioned in the exhaust pipe and can detect rich and lean mixtures. The mechanism in most sensors involves a chemical reaction that generates a voltage (see the patents below for details). The engine's computer looks at the voltage to determine if the mixture is rich or lean, and adjusts the amount of fuel entering the engine accordingly."
Oxygen Sensor Information
"How does an O2 sensor work?
An Oxygen sensor is a chemical generator. It is constantly making a comparison between the Oxygen inside the exhaust manifold and air outside the engine. If this comparison shows little or no Oxygen in the exhaust manifold, a voltage is generated. The output of the sensor is usually between 0 and 1.1 volts. All spark combustion engines need the proper air fuel ratio to operate correctly. For gasoline this is 14.7 parts of air to one part of fuel. When the engine has more fuel than needed, all available Oxygen is consumed in the cylinder and gasses leaving through the exhaust contain almost no Oxygen. This sends out a voltage greater than 0.45 volts. If the engine is running lean, all fuel is burned, and the extra Oxygen leaves the cylinder and flows into the exhaust. In this case, the sensor voltage goes lower than 0.45 volts. Usually the output range seen seen is 0.2 to 0.7 volts. The sensor does not begin to generate it's full output until it reaches about 600 degrees F. Prior to this time the sensor is not conductive. It is as if the circuit between the sensor and computer is not complete. The mid point is about 0.45 volts. This is neither rich nor lean. A fully warm O2 sensor *will not spend any time at 0.45 volts*. In many cars, the computer sends out a bias voltage of 0.45 through the O2 sensor wire. If the sensor is not warm, or if the circuit is not complete, the computer picks up a steady 0.45 volts. Since the computer knows this is an "illegal" value, it judges the sensor to not be ready. It remains in open loop operation, and uses all sensors except the O2 to determine fuel delivery. Any time an engine is operated in open loop, it runs somewhat rich and makes more exhaust emissions. This translates into lost power, poor fuel economy and air pollution. The O2 sensor is constantly in a state of transition between high and low voltage. Manfucturers call this crossing of the 0.45 volt mark O2 cross counts. The higher the number of O2 cross counts, the better the sensor and other parts of the computer control system are working. It is important to remember that the O2 sensor is comparing the amount of Oxygen inside and outside the engine. If the outside of the sensor should become blocked, or coated with oil, sound insulation, undercoating or antifreeze, (among other things), this comparison is not possible."
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