Chevrolet Camaro Z/28 is GO!

[CobraRed01]

From a handling perspective, I'm most interested in seeing what happens in the Grand Am Koni Challenge series starting next week when the Challenger and Camaro enter the fray at VIR. Will more cubes and torque make up for the Mopar's and Bowtie's extra weight? How will the IRS fair?

Regarding the 2000R vs. Z06 comparison earlier...I'm not sure it's completely valid. The R was more a stripper dedicated track car than the Z06, the later making a better daily driver. I think the valid comparison would be Z06 to Terminator (the actual child of the the R, as opposed to the "bastard step-child" the '01 New Edge was)...if one believes it is fair to compare Mustangs to Corvette at all.

Interestingly enough the best Mustang's ever may be the 2011 GT and GT500...which will have the new aluminum 5.0 Coyote and be pre-crash "downgrade". That one year is going to be very special. Considering how well the 2010 GT does right now, from a handling/weight perspective the 2011 GT may be the best Mustang to own...period.

The competition between Camaro (z28) and GT500 may reach real parity from the dig and in corners when Ford must put on crash standards weight.

 

[cbr1000]

If they ever come to production I'm guessing it will be a very limited run. New C7 vette is coming soon...? release in 2012 for the '13 manufacture year will lure the Chevy guys away from the Z

 

[Robert M]

Umm, NO. Completely different kind of car, completely different niche and completely different buyers.
The car Ford made to compete with the Viper and the Corvette (along with Ferrari and Lambo's) is the Ford GT.
Mustang is for the most part a pony car/muscle car. Vipers/Vette's and the GT are Supercars/Sports cars.
Mustangs for the most part are built with drag strip racing. hence solid rear axle. Supercars are designed for performance. Yes you can build a car to do anything but when a company builds a car they do it for a large mass of intended buyers.

Umm, YES. The document first shown below is directly from the 2000 Cobra R Black Binder that was included with each 2000 Cobra, unless it disappeared before the buyer bought the car, and this did happen. But anyway, the page shown below directly relates the 2000 Cobra R (by SVT) to the cars I have mentioned (Z06 and Viper), not the Camaro of that era.

Second to last paragraph says it all...............

The page shown above was part of the document shown below..........

As I have mentioned previous in this thread, the 2000 Cobra R was the starting point for the Mustang (a pony car) to compete with the "Big Boys", and the current pony car offerings have some catching up to do. I welcome a 550+ h.p. Z/28, it is about time that the others are getting up to speed.

As for the cost difference, it costs to go fast, and the current Camaro offering, and Challenger will cost more to be in the same league as the GT500, and when they get there, they will reflect it in their MSRP. Until then, the GM and Dodge "top offerings" in the pony wars are lagging behind, and their lower price verifies that.

BTW - The Ford GT, it came along 5 years later, and I'll just bet that some of the 5.4L DOHC technology and engineering learned from the 2000 Cobra R project was used in the Ford GT, maybe not much, but some.

If you do have Ford/SVT documents disputing the SVT documents I have shown above, I would be very interested in seeing them, please post them. There was a reason why the main stream magazines put super cars like the Z06 and Viper in the ring with the 2000 Cobra R, the reason, Ford/SVT said that those contenders were what the 2000 Cobra R was built to compete against, and it did. In those 2000/2001 tests, the Viper took the first place position in most tests while the Z06 and 00R slugged it out, and the Corvette guys did not like a Mustang standing tall in the ring with them............:kaboom:

R

 

[mustangc]

Markups on the Camaro are starting to go away in most areas. They will be gone almost everywhere by mid 2010. The 2005 Mustang was going for over sticker too initially.

Anyone willing to wait a couple of months for the Camaro can have one for mid 30's. GM will sell as many (SS's) as people will buy. Just because some people are stupid enough to pay over sticker price for a car just to have the first one on the block doesn't mean the magazines should compare them based on that temporary market price.

 

[CobraRed01]

The Cobra R had to initially compete and then evolve into the Terminator as the only American competition for Mustang was the Viper and Corvette at the time (and lingering LS Camaros) and those cars aren't stripped to save weight. Ford realized the Cobra R wasn't going to compete in the marketplace against the more civilized competititors when you put the weight back in...until you boost the smaller modular motor. Love the N/A 2K Cobra R, but they don't build them anymore. Enter the Terminator and then the GT500 has evolved into the best street and trackable American Iron ever. For handling, as the weight goes up the lighter 5.0 Mustang GT may be the one to watch.

 

[bpmurr]

And don't forget the exterior too. Those Camaros are still ugly. :xpl:

They've grown on me. If I had to the money I'd buy one and a Challenger to collect all three.

 

[pan7eraboyca]

Ive seen 2 or 3 new Camaros on the street compared to the hundreds of 2010 Mustangs Ive seen. The dealers have lots in stock as there are tons on the lot.

New Camaro = Fail

 

[TexasShelby]

Delorean and Iacocca started the whole muscle car showdown. There was a gentlemans agreement that nothing over 350 cu.in. would be put in their sport body styles.

Delorean broke that in 1964 when he dropped a 389 and tri-power in a Tempest and named it GTO. He know he had to because of Ford introducing a new sporty car called the Mustang as a 64 1/2 model and in 65 Ford blew the market wide open with the roll out of the Mustang. There wasn't a Camero on the scene for some time later, by then everyone was putting the largest powerplants they could squeeze in their cars. Even though I loved and had a 65 and 67 Goat growing up and a TransAm in the 70's, it ended there for me, in the late 80's I bought a McLaren Mustang and kept it until last year. It was a great car, easy to make stupid amounts of HP and was very cheap to run and mod.
The Shelby GT500 is a great car, not a perfect car. I love mine. Anyone that could replace the rearend with something from the 20th century and have a Alum block and weight reduction of a couple hundred pounds could clean up.

The Camero Z28 no doubt will be a great car a couple years after production has started. But it will have it's growing pains too...Any new technology does.

I do have to say, Ford was out front and did a good job of the TSB on the clutch (a new technology that wasn't tested as much as it should have been, or at least the right way). They didn't blink an eye and replaced everything from the flywheel, clutch assy and complete new tranny...about $11.5K total. Not a debate on repairing anything.

So I too look forward to the new Camero, perhaps at Sonic people will want to look at it as much as my Shelby, instead of walking right past Z06s to get to my car.

And someone mentioned something about Shelby having something to do with the car. He had very little to do with most of it. SVT should get most of the credit for it's performance. Just can't fathom how that rear end and wheel hop was over looked.

 

[mustangc]

...And someone mentioned something about Shelby having something to do with the car. He had very little to do with most of it. SVT should get most of the credit for it's performance. Just can't fathom how that rear end and wheel hop was over looked.

I mentioned something about CS being involved, but my statement agreed with yours... he had little to do with car except allowing Ford to put his name on it. He gets a cut of the profits, though, as a royalty.

"And consider this, the money you spend on the Z-28 might actually go towards improvements in the car, unlike the Shelby where a considerable chunk of sticker price goes to Carrol Shelby just so Ford can license his name."

 

[TexasShelby]

in agreement there for sure...

 

[BleedBlueOval]

Interestingly enough the best Mustang's ever may be the 2011 GT and GT500...which will have the new aluminum 5.0 Coyote and be pre-crash "downgrade".

I've been paying attention to spy reports of this motor and have not yet read anything about the motor being aluminum. do you have any link to support this claim? you're making me wet my pants and i'm gonna be pissed if this is just blowing up smoke. :cuss:
also, could you elaborate on what you mean by the 2nd bold statement?

 

[2003SLVRSNAKE]

How about let's sale some SS(s) for a couple years before throwing our tax dollars at a new GM project. I haven't seen many SS(s) around. Same ole GM.

 

[CobraRed01]

I've been paying attention to spy reports of this motor and have not yet read anything about the motor being aluminum. do you have any link to support this claim? you're making me wet my pants and i'm gonna be pissed if this is just blowing up smoke. :cuss:
also, could you elaborate on what you mean by the 2nd bold statement?

Common knowledge that the Coyote 5.0 will be aluminum. See link here...

Return of the 5.0: Ford Exec confirms 400 hp 'Coyote' V8 coming in 2010 — Autoblog

I haven't found a guarantee on the Al block in the GT500...a common belief and been discussed in SVP. Here's another link that refers to it at the bottom.

2011 Ford Mustang specs hit the Web


As far as the need for the Mustang to meet 2012 NHTSA standards I've read that the Challenger and Camaro already meet them, but despite Mustang's current 5-Star rating it may not. Here's a link where this is discussed...starting on post #26...

http://www.svtperformance.com/forum...rged-lsa-engine-edition-gets-green-light.html

I remember reading something about the current Mustang, weight and the 2012 standards on corner-carvers.com as well. I will search for the link.

 

[Robert M]

The Cobra R had to initially compete and then evolve into the Terminator as the only American competition for Mustang was the Viper and Corvette at the time (and lingering LS Camaros) and those cars aren't stripped to save weight. Ford realized the Cobra R wasn't going to compete in the marketplace against the more civilized competititors when you put the weight back in...until you boost the smaller modular motor. Love the N/A 2K Cobra R, but they don't build them anymore. Enter the Terminator and then the GT500 has evolved into the best street and trackable American Iron ever. For handling, as the weight goes up the lighter 5.0 Mustang GT may be the one to watch.

I agree that the stripped/delete Cobra R was not going to be an "attractive" performance alternative for comfort and would turn away many buyers in general (the first gen. Vipers were the same way), but it really never had to be built for its targeted competition. The Camaro was still in full production and the target competition could have been the Camaro. I really think the the folks at SVT wanted to prove something, and they did. With the lack of 00R creature comforts, and the Viper's higher price, the Z06 was the best bang for the buck.

I do not remember when the fully street legal 1LE Camaro was discontinued, but it was built on the same concept of the Cobra R, deletes and weight savings features.

But so much for Cobra R history, the new Z/28, if it becomes a reality, needs to be produced, it will help to advance the GT500 (or other Mustang variant) even further.......

R

 

[CobraRed01]

Robert M...thanks for the info.

For those interested in the 1LE Camaro...here's a wiki link...interesting read.

Third Generation 1LE - Camaro Wiki

BTW...I'd love to own a 2000 Cobra R... 2011 should be another great year for the Mustang GT and GT500...just keep the damn weight down. Can't wait to see the Camaro (and Challenger) up against the Mustang in the Koni Challenge next year. They debut at VIR next week, but it won't be televised...damn.

 

[rich5150]

Here fishy fishy fishy fishy

 

[Robert M]

Robert M...thanks for the info.

For those interested in the 1LE Camaro...here's a wiki link...interesting read.

Third Generation 1LE - Camaro Wiki

BTW...I'd love to own a 2000 Cobra R... 2011 should be another great year for the Mustang GT and GT500...just keep the damn weight down. Can't wait to see the Camaro (and Challenger) up against the Mustang in the Koni Challenge next year. They debut at VIR next week, but it won't be televised...damn.

Thanks for the 1LE link. I did not realize that they were still produced as late as 1999. That is well within the era of the 2000 Cobra R planning and development, but SVT decided to target the Corvette/Z06 instead, hmmmm? :shrug:

R