JoeJ said:
Joe - Glad to hear you are o.k.
R
Bad luck for Joe's 00 Cobra R
- Thread starter 13 Cobra Toy
- Start date
Joe - Glad to hear you are o.k.
R
Last summer my fuel cell started leaking, whenever I would fill it. If I only put 3/4 of a tank in, it was fine. It was leaking down the front of the tank, near the rear end, if looking at it from the back.
When my mechanic dropped the tank to replace the gaskets, which we assumed there was a bad one, he found that most of the bolts at on the two plates were hand tight - very loose.. there was the leak when the tank was full under pressure. Since then, new gaskets, and new foam while we're at it, and the tank has not leaked since...
Could it be as simple as that, loose bolts rather than bad gaskets ? :shrug:
When my mechanic dropped the tank to replace the gaskets, which we assumed there was a bad one, he found that most of the bolts at on the two plates were hand tight - very loose.. there was the leak when the tank was full under pressure. Since then, new gaskets, and new foam while we're at it, and the tank has not leaked since...
Could it be as simple as that, loose bolts rather than bad gaskets ? :shrug:
Glad you are alright Joe, I'm sure the car will be good as new (maybe better) when done. Gladly you have other things to drive in the mean time to keep you occupied.
DAVESVT2000 said:
Dave:
That is a very good question. One question I'd like to pose to Joe and Fred would be had either of you ever gone into your fuel cell for any reason prior to the fires? :shrug:
Geez man, glad you're OK Joe! What do you think about the temp of the rear diff being a factor? I also wonder if a rear diff cooling fan plays into 'fanning the fire', so to speak?
Sorry, I have to investigate satellite anomalies for my day gig...
Sorry, I have to investigate satellite anomalies for my day gig...
In car fire SUPPRESSION systems are not used to put out the fire, but to buy YOU some time. I don't think any mfg. claims to have a system that will put out a fire while the car is moving and feeding it oxygen.
Aw Bruce, you know I am way to stupid to go into my fuel cell. I'm lucky I can figure out how to fill it with gas! Having said that two things come to mind. First, I had a problem after a Gingerman event a few years ago where the fuel cell leaked when I filled it at a gas pump. I am not sure what Doug did to fix it (will ask him now that my curiosity is stirred up by Joe's problem). Second, the roll cage was installed a few events prior to the fire and I am uncertain anything was done involving the fuel cell. BTW Bruce, your comments to Jimmy were interesting. I sure would appreciate if you could explain it to me sometime.ac427cobra said:
I appreciate everyone's input. FWIW my car caught fire during the end of a race on a hot day, but high altitude was not a factor. Like Joe, my exhaust also dumps in front of the rear axle AND was backfiring during the race. I originally thought the gas might have been dripping on the diff (cooler was on and generally equates to less than 250), but others feel the backfire was probably what "ignited" the leaking gas. As for rear brakes/hubs, one broke at the Glen and wrecked the rotor and half shaft - no fire though.
Joe, you were smart leaving things in to inspect. Jeremy ripped my fuel cell out and pitched it at the track before we loaded the car in the toter. It made it "cleaner" to transport, but unfortunately destroyed the evidence so we could not investigate what happened.
Joe,
First, I am glad you are OK. I am sure that was an exciting ride. I know your R was special to you and with Bob's help I know it will be up and running again.
Everyone else,
I have never seen an 00R cell. However, I was in my 95R cell about a year ago. On mine the bladder is sandwiched on both sides by a cork gasket. Then the gasket is mashed together on each side by an aluminum ring towards the inside of the bladder and the exposed flat piece of aluminum you can see on the outside of the tank. This is at 3 locations--the large center oval cutout (fuel level), fuel pump and vent access. There has got to be a better design than the cork for this but I guess Fuel Safe hasn't come up with it yet.
The one common item I am seeing here are the dumps. Brian has also had a hard time with dumps and fuel starvation. In the 95R racers it was common to run the exhaust out the side in front of a rear wheel. Additionally, many cells were painted white to help with heat.
On a personal note, back when I tracked my 95 convertible I went to dumps when I put the griggs rear on. My first event was hallett. I was having problems with fuel coming out of the gas cap. I switched caps--no help. I didn't fill past a 1/2 tank--no help. Finally, myself or someone else noticed when looking at the rear of the car from about 20 ft. the black plastic cover for the gas tank was sagging. Upon closer inspection the dumps had actually melted the front side of the cover significantly. I had also melted bushings in my panhard bar. Based on this the fuel was getting so hot in my tank it was expanding or boiling? to a point of pushing fuel out of the cap.
You have got to get the exhaust out from under the car. Personally, I would not run dumps on a track car. There is just too much heat.
Tom
First, I am glad you are OK. I am sure that was an exciting ride. I know your R was special to you and with Bob's help I know it will be up and running again.
Everyone else,
I have never seen an 00R cell. However, I was in my 95R cell about a year ago. On mine the bladder is sandwiched on both sides by a cork gasket. Then the gasket is mashed together on each side by an aluminum ring towards the inside of the bladder and the exposed flat piece of aluminum you can see on the outside of the tank. This is at 3 locations--the large center oval cutout (fuel level), fuel pump and vent access. There has got to be a better design than the cork for this but I guess Fuel Safe hasn't come up with it yet.
The one common item I am seeing here are the dumps. Brian has also had a hard time with dumps and fuel starvation. In the 95R racers it was common to run the exhaust out the side in front of a rear wheel. Additionally, many cells were painted white to help with heat.
On a personal note, back when I tracked my 95 convertible I went to dumps when I put the griggs rear on. My first event was hallett. I was having problems with fuel coming out of the gas cap. I switched caps--no help. I didn't fill past a 1/2 tank--no help. Finally, myself or someone else noticed when looking at the rear of the car from about 20 ft. the black plastic cover for the gas tank was sagging. Upon closer inspection the dumps had actually melted the front side of the cover significantly. I had also melted bushings in my panhard bar. Based on this the fuel was getting so hot in my tank it was expanding or boiling? to a point of pushing fuel out of the cap.
You have got to get the exhaust out from under the car. Personally, I would not run dumps on a track car. There is just too much heat.
Tom
Tom,
Do you attribute the experience with your 95 vert to the orientation of the dump exit pipes, or just dumps period? I have considered re-doing my exhaust from dumps to side exit. I know Dr. Gas makes a nice flattened pipe section that can be used to clear my MM subframe connectors.
If I change to side exit, I wonder which is better, single side or both sides?
Do you attribute the experience with your 95 vert to the orientation of the dump exit pipes, or just dumps period? I have considered re-doing my exhaust from dumps to side exit. I know Dr. Gas makes a nice flattened pipe section that can be used to clear my MM subframe connectors.
If I change to side exit, I wonder which is better, single side or both sides?
I would hate for this happen to anyone but it was a real shame that it happened to Joe. Most people would have packed up and sulked home, not Joe. He had a smile on his face and still went about instructing and helping out with the SVTOA portion of the event to make it a success. He endured numerous jokes and comments at his expense (all in good fun of course) like the good guy he is. He even picked up a few new nick names to boot.
Tom,
If I remember correctly your dumps actually didn't dump exhaust out the bottom but was dumping it straight back. Is that correct?
If I remember correctly your dumps actually didn't dump exhaust out the bottom but was dumping it straight back. Is that correct?
Joe,
I personally want to thank you again for your positive attitude and great spirit.
To everyone else,
Although this tragedy happened on Friday of the event Joe stayed until Monday night to help new comers like me by being an instructor over the weekend. The knowledge he shared with me (and others) will never be forgotten. The car can be fixed, I'm grateful Joe was smart enough to do all the right things. When he saw what was happening he drove his car to the flag stand where he knew a fire extinguisher was located and a crew could get to him to help.
Joe, thank you for having such a great attitude and sticking around to share some of your knowledge with a rookie like me.
Jason (Teal 93 cobra)
I personally want to thank you again for your positive attitude and great spirit.
To everyone else,
Although this tragedy happened on Friday of the event Joe stayed until Monday night to help new comers like me by being an instructor over the weekend. The knowledge he shared with me (and others) will never be forgotten. The car can be fixed, I'm grateful Joe was smart enough to do all the right things. When he saw what was happening he drove his car to the flag stand where he knew a fire extinguisher was located and a crew could get to him to help.
Joe, thank you for having such a great attitude and sticking around to share some of your knowledge with a rookie like me.
Jason (Teal 93 cobra)
Shane and Mark,
Originally, the dumps were straight back cut from the back side of the muffler. Then, I had turndowns welded on that extended below the axle and turned outward and down. The reason I went that route was I had sub connectors in the way to go side exit.
Now, I would get the pipe you are talking about Shane and put side exit on. In testing by the IMSA teams the 2 into 1 setup gave the 95Rs good torque pulling out of corners.
I think Rob is getting ready to do some dyno work on exhaust setups like we are all running and/or considering.
Tom
Originally, the dumps were straight back cut from the back side of the muffler. Then, I had turndowns welded on that extended below the axle and turned outward and down. The reason I went that route was I had sub connectors in the way to go side exit.
Now, I would get the pipe you are talking about Shane and put side exit on. In testing by the IMSA teams the 2 into 1 setup gave the 95Rs good torque pulling out of corners.
I think Rob is getting ready to do some dyno work on exhaust setups like we are all running and/or considering.
Tom
Guys,
I dropped off the Cobra R at Bob Hahn's Body Shop in Nacogdoches, TX today and put it on a lift. It is really hard to tell the ignition point until we remove the fuel cell. The charcoal canister and hoses were really burnt. I think after the fuel cell pressured up something failed on the cell or I got liquid in the charcoal canister and blew off one of the lines. I think it was spraying gas out and the rear brakes set it on fire. I had just finished braking hard and making the left hand turn #1 when the car ignited.
We will not do anything to the car until a State Farm adjuster looks at the car. I have a $1000 deductible other than collision on the car. Hopefully they will cover the repair. It looks like I will have to replace the half shafts, rear hub assemblies, the fuel cell, rear wiring harness, the rear deck and wing, and much more. Bob will get a list together and we will start sourcing the parts required.
I am so thankful I did not have a passenger with me and that the car was headed into the wind. Sometimes, it pays to be lucky. I will attach a picture of the car and fire just before the firetruck started putting it out. Hope I never have to see this again.
I dropped off the Cobra R at Bob Hahn's Body Shop in Nacogdoches, TX today and put it on a lift. It is really hard to tell the ignition point until we remove the fuel cell. The charcoal canister and hoses were really burnt. I think after the fuel cell pressured up something failed on the cell or I got liquid in the charcoal canister and blew off one of the lines. I think it was spraying gas out and the rear brakes set it on fire. I had just finished braking hard and making the left hand turn #1 when the car ignited.
We will not do anything to the car until a State Farm adjuster looks at the car. I have a $1000 deductible other than collision on the car. Hopefully they will cover the repair. It looks like I will have to replace the half shafts, rear hub assemblies, the fuel cell, rear wiring harness, the rear deck and wing, and much more. Bob will get a list together and we will start sourcing the parts required.
I am so thankful I did not have a passenger with me and that the car was headed into the wind. Sometimes, it pays to be lucky. I will attach a picture of the car and fire just before the firetruck started putting it out. Hope I never have to see this again.
couple years ago mm&ff project car (MAD MAX i believe)had the same problem.but the stock tank did not leak it just had vapor lock bad.tank showed full or close when it had only 1/4 tank i think.turndown's were the reason.
Looks all too familiar to me Joe.... except for the fire truck. The one at BeaveRun did not have water in it or any keys. I guess it was parked in the paddock for show. There were no safety trucks either, so corner workers either walked or drove to the fire with hand held extinguishers. One was even smoking a cigarette as he slowly walked his way to the car. Jeremy was screaming at him and I thought he would jump the fence and kill the guy. Dean was at the race and remembers watching the blaze. One positive result of the incident was that OH/IN/Midwest NASA subsequently got their own safety truck which they bring to the events. A nice backup if the track's saftey team response is horrific as it was in my case. BTW it's one more reason I love Road America.... tremendous safety crew and I know they would have had that fire out in a minute, not 10.JoeJ said:
Joe,
Great to meet you at the track, although circumstances could have been better! You are a real trooper for staying through the weekend!!!!!
We had some fuel issues with Ron's '95 R ( former Jason Priestly car ). It seemed to pressure up excessively and even spit some fuel out of the gas cap! Temps out there in Utah were excessive. With that said, it doesn't surprise me that a leak would appear under those conditions, especially with the apparent problems with these fuel cells.
Glad you're OK. Hope to see you next year here in Jersey!!!!
epper:
JV.
Great to meet you at the track, although circumstances could have been better! You are a real trooper for staying through the weekend!!!!!
We had some fuel issues with Ron's '95 R ( former Jason Priestly car ). It seemed to pressure up excessively and even spit some fuel out of the gas cap! Temps out there in Utah were excessive. With that said, it doesn't surprise me that a leak would appear under those conditions, especially with the apparent problems with these fuel cells.
Glad you're OK. Hope to see you next year here in Jersey!!!!
epper: JV.
Guys,
Just a quick word of advice to anyone who is running a fuel cell. Make sure it does not have the vent running to a charcoal canister. If the canister gets raw fuel in it, it will plug up and you will have a bomb on your butt. I have visited with several people who builds race cars and they have all told me the same thing. Ford had to do this due to emissions but if you have a 2000 R, inspect the cell at least every five years, eliminate the charcoal canister, and make sure the fuel vent is to the outside of the car away from your exhaust or brake rotors.
It looks like State Farm will help with the expense of repairing the car. It will just take some time and money, but it will be done.
Just a quick word of advice to anyone who is running a fuel cell. Make sure it does not have the vent running to a charcoal canister. If the canister gets raw fuel in it, it will plug up and you will have a bomb on your butt. I have visited with several people who builds race cars and they have all told me the same thing. Ford had to do this due to emissions but if you have a 2000 R, inspect the cell at least every five years, eliminate the charcoal canister, and make sure the fuel vent is to the outside of the car away from your exhaust or brake rotors.
It looks like State Farm will help with the expense of repairing the car. It will just take some time and money, but it will be done.
Joe,
Thanks for the update.
Also, good to hear State Farm is stepping up to the plate.
Tom
Thanks for the update.
Also, good to hear State Farm is stepping up to the plate.
Tom
I dont have a fuel cell (yet) but I think the charcoal canister is going to be removed from my race car here in the near future.
I get chills whenever I look at that pic.... brrrr. Scary stuff, glad that youre ok and that SF is stepping up to the plate. I dont care how good of a deal all the geicos, reprogressives, and cheapassed insurance 4us quote insurance rates, when the shit hits the fan State Farm has never let me down.
I get chills whenever I look at that pic.... brrrr. Scary stuff, glad that youre ok and that SF is stepping up to the plate. I dont care how good of a deal all the geicos, reprogressives, and cheapassed insurance 4us quote insurance rates, when the shit hits the fan State Farm has never let me down.
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